Let's Chat... Where to place our focus in grief (Karen Sutton)

#153. Let's chat... about where we place our focus in grief.

Welcome to another Let’s Chat episode, where instead of continuing our 101 Types of Loss list, I (Claire Sandys) sit down with guests who have expertise and personal insight into different aspects of loss.

In this episode, I’m joined by Karen Sutton from Cheltenham in Gloucestershire, England (just a few miles down the road from me!). Karen is the UK's first widow coach and an Intuitive Psychology Coach.

Karen's husband, Simon, died suddenly in 2016 after suffering a cardiac arrest while out on a bike ride, leaving her to navigate life as a widowed mum to their two children.

Together, we talk about Karen's own experience of grief and the lessons she's learned along the way. We explore the powerful role that focus plays in the grieving process - why it's so easy to become consumed by our pain, how gently shifting our focus can help, and the difference it can make over time.

This conversation is packed with practical insights for anyone living with loss, including ways to refocus without denying your grief. Plus, Karen is a big advocate of hope - so you know we're going to bond on that topic! 

For more about Karen, her social media, and her podcast, visit:

https://www.karensutton.co.uk
https://www.instagram.com/karensuttonwidowcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/karensuttonwidowcoach
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-widow-podcast/id1576872824

Transcript

Welcome And Today’s Focus

Claire 0:00

Hello there, and thank you for joining me for another episode of Let's Chat on The Silent Why. I'm Claire Sandys, and through this podcast, we're exploring how and where we can find hope through grief and loss. In these Let's Chat episodes, I chat to a guest who brings either personal experience or professional expertise into a specific area of loss. Together we are building what I call a tool shed, a collection of insights, ideas, and supporting tools to help us prepare for or navigate the inevitable losses that life brings. In this episode, I'm chatting with Karen Sutton, a widow coach. In fact, she's the first one in the UK, and an intuitive psychology coach. And she lives, well, just down the road from me actually, in Gloucestershire, England. I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation because Karen shared so much wisdom in the value of what we can focus on during grief. It's full of tips on how to refocus in grief, why that's hard, why it matters, and what the benefits can be. She's also a big advocate of hope, so you know we're going to get on on that topic. And of course, I'll be asking Karen what tool she wants to add to the metaphorical tool shed that I am building, which is full of equipment to help us face and get through loss and grief. So grab a cup or maybe a coffee and relax with me and Karen as we chat how to refocus in grief.

Meeting The UK’s First Widow Coach

Speaker 1:19

I'm Karen Sutton and I am the UK's first widow coach, and I am based in Cheltenham in Gloucestershire. I lost my husband 10 years ago, and I was looking for help to help me survive it, and I couldn't find it. I needed something beyond peer support, so I created it. And now I run programs, I have a membership, I run retreats and events, and I'm currently creating a widow coaching certification so I can create uh well help people to become, should I say, widow coaches that have the lived experience of it. So my weeks are spent coaching, but more so actually creating, creating um content and recording videos and yeah, a lot of behind the scenes stuff.

Claire 2:15

Yeah, brilliant. And when we were connecting, sorting out the details for this, it was only then that I twigged that your lesson about five miles away from me. So probably could have done this in person. But um, yes, thank you for joining me. Um and it's lovely to speak to someone so local as well. I was expecting you to be somewhere across the country like people usually are, but we are very local to each other. So and I've been following you on Instagram for quite a while. And recently I heard you talking about something on there in particular, and I was like, this is a subject that I really think would be good to explore. Plus, you're also really big on hope, which we love. So yeah, let's start with the grief because you're not someone who just talks to widows and tries to help widows, you're someone who has been through it. You are a widow, and I know that you lost your lovely Simon in September 2016. So why don't we just start there and just share a little bit about how you lost him and what life and grief looked like for you

Sudden Loss And Early Aftermath

Claire 3:02

then?

Speaker 3:02

Yeah, so um it was uh just a regular Sunday September, and I was 39, Simon was 43, and the girls were nine and five. Uh, I was working in the NHS as a midwife at the time. And we woke up one Sunday morning with hangovers because we'd had friends around the night before. Um, and Simon got up to go out on his weekly bike ride, and I was astounded that he was able to get up and go out on this weekly bike ride because I was lying in bed, my head was banging, the kids were downstairs. I was like, Oh my god, I can't cope. Um, and he was like, Come on, get up. I was like, Oh, in a minute. And um, he said, Look, I'm I'm going out on this bike ride. I knew he'd be gone about four hours because that was his kind of way to decompress. He went with his friend, so yeah, I kind of had a bit of a slow start and did get up and do some parenting. And I was hanging out the washing at about half eleven, and Mark, who he had gone cycling with, was basically at my door, and he told me that Simon had had a cardiac arrest whilst on the bike ride, and literally dropped down dead. Very unexpected, a huge shock, and as you can imagine, the aftermath was horrendous. I have never known despair or devastation like it. I'm very blessed in that I live in the town I was born and brought up in, and I still have both my parents and my sister and uh uh an incredible group of friends. My children were still at junior school, and the school was amazing. We were we were picked up and carried and we were wrapped in so much love, Claire. Honestly, I I I was I was so lucky, and and I I could see that at the time, um, how lucky I was because Simon had an expression. He said, There's always going to be someone ahead of you, there's always going to be someone behind you. So, you know, there's always somebody better off, there's always somebody worse off. And that always really stayed with me, and it's not always um a helpful thing to live by because sometimes you know you can think you're better than or worse than somebody else if you start comparing. However, I think if you use it as a perspective to kind of allow yourself to see what you do still have in your life, because when something like that happens, it's very easy to kind of look at everything that you don't have that's not possible for you, that doesn't exist anymore. And grief can overshadow everything, and of course, that's natural. But I will I was able to kind of see that I still had a lot of good in my life, and and I did. And I I navigated my way through somehow with a lot of support and a lot of help. And I think with anything in life, when you go through something, you want to connect with people that have been through it or are going through it as well, right? You know, and this is why sort of antenatal groups exist and grief support groups exist, and you know, mums at schools with young kids become really good friends, you know, people at work that do similar jobs, there's there's that sense of community and and understanding and and shared lived experiences, and it makes you feel feel part of something. Um, so I was desperately seeking people that had lost a life partner, um, and you know, could tell me I was going to be okay and how to be okay. And whilst I found peer support groups and and they were amazing because people are speaking your language and they're helping you to make sense of what you're feeling, it's wanting something more than that, you know, the practical tools and and shifts. And and in my sort of endeavor to survive this, I'm I made some questionable choices. I did things in a uh yeah, um, you know, when you reflect back on things and you're just like, what were you thinking? Not sure I was really thinking, I was just trying to survive. But I I ended up sort of getting a life coach and discovering the world of personal development, and it it changed my life. It honestly changed my life, and and I thought, right, that I need to blend grief, work, personal development, and help people to to find a way forward because you can, because if I can, anyone can. I was no different to anyone else, and I just wanted to help people that needed it.

Claire 7:44

Yeah. And you've obviously spoken to a lot of widows who have lost their partners in a lot of different ways. You had that shock element with yours, which not everybody obviously has. I mean, I'm guessing that throwing that in is a very different type of grief almost and processing it because you've got to factor that in as well. There's no sort of long goodbye like some people might have with an illness. Just while we're here and you're you happen to be here out of curiosity, how does that change the grief? Was that something for you having watched lots of other people go through different types? Does that add an element that makes it harder in any way?

Speaker 8:14

I think what I've come to understand about grief is that um whilst it has so many universal truths and so many people connect with so much of what each other experiences in that, there are also many, many different experiences. And it's very easy, I think, in grief, and and I say this because I did it, to look at what somebody else's experience is and think that theirs is better and yours is worse. Because when you lose someone you love, right, it's the worst thing, and yours is you loved your person more than anyone else, you feel more pain than anyone else, like your experience was way worse than anyone else's because it's so raw and it's so visceral that you you you you're looking at everyone else going, Oh, I wish I'd had that, I wish I'd had that, I wish I'd had the chance to say goodbye. And and and actually what I've come to understand is that your your loss is always the worst loss. And yes, there are many, many different ways we experience it, but it it doesn't help us in our grief to look at things that so, for example, when Simon died and it was a sudden loss, I I initially thought, oh God, I didn't I didn't get to say goodbye to him. We didn't get to have the conversations, he didn't know he was gonna die, we didn't know, I wish we'd been prepared, I wish we'd been able to have these conversations, and and again, that focus point of what I didn't have and and what wasn't possible for me. But I had to look at my situation and find the good in it, just and I had to look at it and go, right, and this might sound a bit bizarre, and I may be a bit clumsy with my words, or you they might trigger somebody listening because we all hear things differently. But um I think I had to take my situation and ask myself, okay, so what within this can I be grateful for? And actually, I had to reframe it and think Simon didn't know he was gonna die, he didn't suffer, and we didn't have to say goodbye to him, he didn't have to say goodbye to his children, he knew nothing about it, and and that provided me with some inner peace, I suppose. And you know, I think we we all get thrown into the the river of grief, the the turbulent, choppy waters that are deep and you feel like you're drowning. And some people are thrown into it, catapulted into it all of a sudden with a sudden loss, others sort of tiptoe in with long-term illnesses. The path in is different for everyone. Um, but ultimately you will find yourself in the middle of that river, scared, lost, unsure of how you're gonna sort of stay afloat and and navigate that the path ahead. So I you know, I don't have experience of losing somebody through a long-term illness. I have spoken to a lot of people that have, and and that comes with its own levels of of complexity and different layers to work through. But you know, I've again I've worked with widows that have lost two people from long-term illnesses, and and those experiences have been entirely different as well. You you just have to take each experience as it is and support yourself in the best way that you can

Comparison Traps And Reframing Goodbye

Speaker 11:42

through it.

Claire 11:42

Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important. That's why I wanted to speak to you really. It's about this like, where do you place your focus? And it's by no means an easy thing to do or to change. And I talk about hope a lot on the podcast and how the fact that it there's a lot of choices involved, even with having hope. It doesn't just arrive and people are like just naturally hopeful people. Everyone I've spoken to that's found hope has chosen to look for it or chosen to believe in it or chosen to know that it's there. It's it's not an easy thing. There is a bit of kind of it almost feels unfair because you're the one grieving in an awful place and someone's saying, You need to do this, you need to shift your focus, or you need to do this, and you're like, I don't want to do anything, I just want to feel better. But for those that do and can, it does make a huge difference. And I'm guessing, and I don't know, so correct me if I'm wrong here, going back and looking at those days when you were uh going through it early on. I know a lot of people who would say, Oh, I couldn't go through that, like, oh, there's no way I could, you know, I could go through that. I'm guessing you'd have been the same. And I'm also guessing that maybe back then you wouldn't have thought that you would ever be where you are now. Would that be right?

Speaker 12:37

100% never in a million years.

Claire 12:40

Yeah. I think that's encouraging for people to know because they think, oh, it won't be me. But actually, nobody sets out and goes through this loss, and day one thinks, oh, I'm gonna become a widow coach. You know, it's not something, it's a lot of decisions, it's a lot of learning, it's a lot of experience. And I think that's good for people to know because I think people do they fear these kinds of losses. What happens if I'm on my own? What happens if I'm a single parent? What happens if I lose my partner? You know, and I know there'll be people I know that'll be listening to this, but oh, my husband goes on bike rides. What if he doesn't come back one day? And it's like, and that's again, it's like, where do you want to put your focus? Do you want to focus on the important thing, which is that you have your husband and he is here, he has come home and he's you know, he's well and healthy, or do you want to focus on what's not happening, which can actually really ruin, start to ruin your life?

Speaker 13:21

Do you know it the brain is an incredible thing and it will take us down some brilliant rabbit holes, do you know? And we can get very caught up in loops and patterns and ways of thinking, and it is really hard because what I do, you know, you know, I have a an eight-month program uh called Finding Hope in Widowhood, because that is what I'm all about, and I want to offer people that hope. But like I always say, like hope, hope is a wonderful thing to have, but you've got to back it up with something. It's a bit like wanting to win the lottery, but never buying a lottery ticket. You know, you've got to take some action. And I think there's an element where we all hope that we'll find a way through it, because instinctively, as human beings, we are built for survival, we want to survive things, but the the the anxiety and the fear creeps in because we don't have certainty and we don't have all the answers. And you know, when we don't have those things, we'd like to make the answers up, and when we do that, because we have sort of this natural negative bias that goes on, we tend to look at all the worst-case scenarios and and we create so much of our own anxieties and we layer our suffering with more suffering. Now, this isn't intentional, this isn't a conscious choice that we're necessarily making. Um, it's it's driven by uh, you know, a lot of our subconscious thoughts and belief systems that lie you know just below the surface that we we're not necessarily aware of in our our day-to-day, but they really do drive us. And and I think it's really learning to understand that everything that you think isn't necessarily true. And when we get caught up in the oh my god, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to survive this, my life's never gonna be as good again. I want to find a way through it, but it's just so dark. You know, there's that fear of permanence of never figuring out who you are, is you know, the the next life that you create, you yeah, okay, maybe I can create something I can see others have, but it's never gonna be as good as what I had before. It's gonna be almost like the second best life. Um, and and we we kind of tell ourselves all these things, and and it's hard. It's it's really hard to hold on to hope and to keep going and to to want to find a way forward because when you lose somebody so close and your whole world shatters into a million pieces, yes, there's there's a a desire to survive it and find a way forward, but there's also an element of I don't know if I want to, actually. And I don't mean that you you're thinking you want to take your your life or end your life, that but that you're just so tired and you're so afraid, and you're in so much pain that you think, I I don't know if I can or if I even want to, because it just feels so wrong and so hard at the moment. And and what I really like to do actually is just hold space for people in in that duality and and kind of go, you can have both, and I and I don't think that's something that we we understand very well as humans. It's usually like an either-or situation, isn't it, in in life, that you feel either happy or sad, you know, you're up or you're down, you're having fun or you're not, and that there's a you know,

Hope As A Choice With Actions

Speaker 17:02

a sort of a one-dimensional view to to life and how we're feeling in any one given moment. But in grief we learn that actually we're not one-dimensional, and we can feel a huge range of emotions in any one given moment, and actually they can be opposing feelings and emotions as well, and you can you can sit in the sadness of it and you know be working towards something that can feel good again, and just to support yourself and hold yourself in that space and notice the thoughts that are coming into your mind, and just reminding yourself that's a thought, it's not a truth, and coming back to what's important now, what can I do for myself now that'll help me get through this moment that will get me to the next moment.

Claire 17:49

Yeah, and that's really helpful practical advice as well. They're really things people can actually really sit down and do. One one of the things that made me get in touch was a uh a reel that you'd done in March. And I jotted down some of the things you said in it because I thought these are the sorts of things that are really interesting. And you, I think you've just sort of touched on them, mentioned some of them there. But one of the things was don't let two lives be lost, the kind of uh the importance of it not being, you know, sort of almost wrecking your own life as well as losing someone else. But also that life can be beautiful after loss, it doesn't take anything away from your grief if you know, just accepting that. Uh, you build a life around your loss, it can be purposeful, joyful, and beautiful in many ways. It's different, but different doesn't mean bad. And you can live alongside your loss, like you were saying, because you said you had been sad by people who were just sort of saying they wanted to join their partner, even if it's been 20 years since they died, they were still just sort of sitting in this place of I'm just waiting to go and join them. And I think all of these were kind of related to like the different things we can focus on in grief. You kind of can choose how awful life is, and to look at that, or you can look at the strange, unexpected beauty that can kind of creep in after loss. So, how did you come to all this? Because I'm on your website it said it starts with a decision. And you also said that quite early on after Simon died, you made a vow that you were not going to let it define you and your children's lives negatively. So these are all quite, you know, amazing things that are probably helping a lot of people. How did you come to this? How did you make a decision that actually where I focus is really important right now? Is that something you had learnt or you kind of instinctively knew, or did you learn through doing the wrong things? Like you said, you made some mistakes.

Speaker 19:18

Yeah, definitely. Yes, and I I definitely made some some questionable choices along the way. But do you know what? At least I was making choices, at least I was taking action and doing something. And I think there can be such fear in taking action because you think, what if it doesn't work out? What if I get it wrong? What if I look stupid? And actually, do you know if you never if you never try something new or never take that bold step, you you never learn anything about yourself. And I did very instinctively, immediately after Simon died. I was in the car with my mum and my sister. It was the day after he died, and I said, I cannot allow this to find me and the girls in a negative way for the rest of our lives. I that is not happening. I didn't know how I was going to do that. I had no idea, it was just something within me, and that's not to say that there weren't days where do you know that that feeling wasn't as strong for sure. But I did make a decision, and and initially my decision was I don't want to be affected by this the negative way for the rest of my life. I was working away from something. I I was focusing on what I didn't want to become. Because I think at the beginning, to think about what do you want? You know, when I when I speak to widows very early in their grief, if I say to them, what do you want? I they're just going to look at me like a rabbit in the headlights, like, I don't, I don't know. I I I don't even know what how to take my next step, let alone what I want for my future. So you know, I always think if you don't know what you do want, what don't you want? Who don't you want to become? And and something I think is is really it's hard to sit with, but it it's really helpful. And and I do this with the the the ladies in my Finding Open Widowhood programme, and it's a starting point because it gets you thinking, life is sure, right? I think there's a book, isn't there? I think it's is it 4,000 weeks? Um I I might have quoted that wrong, but it's really not very long at all. And the the chances of us being here on this earth having this life are are something ridiculous, like 400 trillion. Do you know, like that sperm eating that egg, your two parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents. Do you know what I mean? The things that have to be aligned for you to be here to have this very short period of time on this planet, it's a gift. And having life comes with ups and downs. And the only certainty we have in life is that we are going to die and the people around us are going to die. Now, that's a harsh, brutal truth to sit with. I know it is. You know, thinking of the people that you love dying is scary, and thinking of yourself dying is scary, but it's going to happen. And I like to sort of almost. Start with the end in mind. So when your time comes, when you're at the end of your life and the people around you are speaking about you and the impact you had on them, what do you want them to say? How do you want them to have felt? What legacy do you want to leave behind? Who do you want to be? Do you want them to be saying, Oh God, you know, it's so sad actually. Her husband died when she was 39 and she she never found her way. She lived the rest of her life attached to the pain because she felt that was a thing that was you know keeping her connected to her person. And it's like, no, I I don't. I want to embrace it. I want to find a way. Now, like I say at the beginning, I was working away from something. And as I moved through my grief and I made those choices and decisions, I then started to kind of see what was possible for me. And and I started to discover things about myself that I never knew existed. Do you know? I there were there were times when I was like, oh my god, I'm amazing. I'm invincible. Like I remember learning how to tow the caravan. And we had a caravan, Simon always towed it. Um, that was his forte. I didn't have anything to do with it, I didn't even want the thing, if I'm honest. I was like, I want to just stay in hotels, but okay. And then he died, and I was like, the kids love this, I need to figure this out. And I went on a caravan towing course and I I asked somebody that I knew, a family friend, to show me how to set it all up, how everything worked in it, and I bloody did it. And I remember I remember feeling like invincible, like nothing can stop me. I I'm on fire. This this is incredible, and yeah, it was it was amazing. There were many things like that because you you know, you you're you're pushing, you're growing, you're learning, and you're discovering these parts of yourself that you you didn't know were there because you not that they weren't there, but you just hadn't had to draw on them before. And there have been so many gifts in my grief. Now, I'm not gonna say that means I'm glad Simon died because I have these things. So I don't see it that way. Because the way I see it is when you go through something in life, you'd have choices. You have many, many choices, and you can you can go down many different paths. And the choices that I made in my life after Simon died have led me to where I am and have have allowed me to learn what I've learned, see what I see, gain what I've gained. And I'm grateful to me for those things because I could have made different choices, but I didn't. I've done what I've done and I am where I am, and and my life is bigger, brighter, more beautiful, I think, than it's ever been because I have a different perspective now of life. I understand myself better. I've learned so much about me, I've learned so much about who I am and what I want and what's important to me and how I want to live. And it really is about it, it's down to you. And and that's not that you have to do it on your own. I tell you the quote that really changed something for me in my grief because I I did spend the first two and a half years partying, shopping, holidaying, dating, you know, anything external to me to try and fix me and and give me the answers that I was searching for until actually I was sat at my kitchen breakfast bar and I was flicking through a magazine and there was a quote, and I've got it on my wall over here because it really, really did change my life. And it said, Your wound is probably not your fault, but your healing is your responsibility. And you know, when something just lands and you go, right, okay, yeah, I get it. And that doesn't mean you have to do it on your own, but nobody can do it for you. Nobody's coming to save you, and and you have to show up for yourself. You, you know, you have to be that person now that does the things that you say you're gonna do, um, that are aligned with who you are, and and you go after the things that you want in life, and and they are it is a choice. I'm not saying it's an easy choice. I always say to people in my community, choose your hard because because it's all hard, right? Staying in the pain and sitting with grief and all that kind of stuff, that's hard. Finding a way through it and how to you know learn to carry it more lightly and build a life around it, that's hard. It's all hard. One is is going to lead you to a greater sense of peace and compassion and meaning and purpose in life, and and the other is gonna hold you in a place of suffering for longer than you need to be there. And it's hard because we become attached to our pain. And I think there's a real belief, and I had it with Simon, that that the depth of our pain is a measure of the depth of our love. And if we're not in pain, if we're not suffering, then then that means that our person's life maybe didn't matter as much, or that we're not loving them as much, or we're being disloyal in some way. All understandable, all relatable, but again, they're thoughts, they're not truths. And it's learning to live with more love than pain. And you know, I have a a life beyond anything I could ever have imagined, and it's beautiful and it's full, and it's I have to pinch myself sometimes. And my kids, my kids are amazing, like they're so I really was worried about them. They're so amazing, they're good. And I and I'm so grateful for that. And my love for Simon comes with me. It comes with me, and he's always there.

Claire 27:48

Yeah, I think people do feel that pressure that the grief needs to reflect the love in some way. If I've been together 20 years and it's a really in-depth, you know, loving marriage, then I the grief needs to be as intense and as long and as kind of painful, maybe I guess, as the love was amazing. And that's not not how it is. The amount of people I've spoken to who kind of have had to put that to one side, and like you said, mean this doesn't mean I don't miss them. This doesn't mean I don't love them, but I've made choices because I need to to live. And I love hearing it because I've spoken to near nearly a hundred people now about losses, and we're up to number 60 on our loss list. So over 60 different types of grief, not just bereavement. And the amount of people that have said, they're not exactly what you just said. I'm not saying I wouldn't go back and have that person back again. Of course we'd have them back in a heartbeat, but to have them back and go back, there's so much I would lose that's been amazing since. There's so much beauty I've found, there's so much I've learned, I'm a different kind of person, that it makes it a harder thing to say, I would just go back in a heartbeat. And that's been from people who've lost people to people who've had amputations to people

Responsibility For Healing And Beliefs

Claire 28:50

who'd lost babies. So many of them have said the same thing. So much beauty has come from the loss that it's now this sort of, like you said, it's the tension of the two.

Speaker 28:58

It is.

Claire 28:58

I'm holding all this beauty I didn't expect while I'm holding the grief. And I never thought it would look like that. I love hearing how people kind of get to these positions because not everyone gets there. And I I really want this podcast to be something that helps people have hope for loss. So I haven't gone through a loss that's as shattering as um becoming a widow or some of the other ones that literally, you know, wreck life for a while. But I have so much hope already that if I went through it, I would have all these stories of people in my head that I know have survived it. And whether that would help inst in the early days or not, doesn't matter. But long term, I know I'd be thinking, you know what, so-and-so did it. I can do this, so-and-so did it. And I did it with um our infertility and childlessness. I knew people before that didn't have kids and were living an amazing life, and I would focus on them and think, you know what, these people have done it. I can do it. I can do this, I'm gonna get there. But like you said, it's a lot of choices and there's a lot of reasons why you might choose not to. What kind of excuses do you see for people not wanting to do this? Whether it's just that they they want to be sad, uh, they feel like it's letting go or minimizing the grief if they shift their focus. What's the most common thing that stops people from actually shifting what they're thinking about?

Speaker 30:06

It's hard to know what their thinking is because in their mind, they don't know. They they don't have that level of awareness as to why. And and that that's that's why I believe is my understanding. I'm I'm not I'm not a psychotherapist, you know, I'm I'm not trained in this stuff at all. But the way I see it is you get you become attached to a story and a belief in life that allows you to feel safe in the reality that you've created, and and that's based on many, many things, right? You know, your your upbringing, your experiences in in life, anything that you you've been through that might have been traumatic, or you know, like big T and little T trauma for want of a better expression. And people tell themselves stories, and people have have got belief systems that probably aren't even theirs that have been ingrained in them from caregivers, um, teachers, friends, colleagues, society, and and they become attached to those things and they will stand by it and they will live by it. And and I think that the most common thing is do you know people believe that allowing themselves to live after loss is is somehow being disloyal in some way. Um I see that a lot and I hear it a lot. Why they're unable to challenge themselves on that and and don't allow themselves to open their hearts and minds to different potential and different story, it would be different for everyone. Uh there'll be a different reason for them all. You know, a lot of it is gonna be sort of shrouded in in fear and you know, wanting to wanting to be right and wanting to stay safe. And and this is the thing, like we will choose um what's that expression? We will choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven. Okay, yeah. And it's so true because your brain likes what it knows, it likes certainty, it likes to understand what's gonna happen next, it likes to see what you know what's familiar and what feels safe because that, because it feels safe in that. Even if that familiar is not serving you and is causing suffering and pain and heartache in your life, you would rather stay in that, your brain would rather you stay in that because it understands it and it knows what's gonna happen than step out of it into something it doesn't know and it doesn't understand. And that for some people is just too much and and they need deeper support and deeper work. It's still possible, but it takes a choice to want to. You've got to want to, you know, a lot of us try and change other people in the way they see the world because you see it differently, like, oh god, if you could just change this or do make a different choice or see it in a different way, you it would open you your heart and your mind, and you have a completely different experience of life and reality. But people will see what they want to see, they won't see what you tell them to see. And it's only when they kind of one day something might happen and they'll go, This isn't good for me anymore, and I want to change it. And it's only then will they then get the help so that they can, you know, broaden their horizons a little bit and see things from a different perspective and help themselves and and make the changes, to look at things differently, to think about things differently, to take different actions, different choices. But it's not change isn't easy. We you know, as a human being, we we fight change because of because we want to stay in that in that familiarity. So it it's I guess it's it's driven by so many factors, it's really hard to pinpoint the the why as a as a generic in in my mind. Um, but I think this is why it has to be a choice and it has to be your choice. You have to look at your life and you have to look at it really bloody honestly, and that's hard to be honest with yourself and go, oh, I'm doing this thing actually, Ian, it's not really working for me. Because when you when you see it and you say it, you then have a choice of do I carry on doing that thing that I know isn't working for me, or do I make a choice to change it, knowing that that change is going to be really hard because these these habits, these beliefs, these thoughts are probably deeply ingrained in you from childhood. And you you can't just flick a switch and things are different overnight. It takes dedication, determination, hard work showing up. And this is where, again, it's like choose your hard. It's all hard, but you you know, you've got to kind of choose it. And it can be really frustrating sometimes because you you can see see how much people are layering their suffering with more suffering, with with their thoughts, with their behaviors, with their belief systems, and you you want to go, you can change this.

Claire 34:55

That was actually going to be my next question was is it hard watching people because you know the benefits it can bring. Is it hard watching when people just decide not to and just stay where they are?

Speaker 35:03

Really hard, really hard. Like, and that's not to say that I'm right and they're wrong at all, because that there is no right and wrong. There's there's only your way to do these things, and we're all on our own path and our own journey, right? And I do think that there's there's a reason for these things that I do believe that there is learning in everything if we allow ourselves to see it. And I do sometimes want to say to people, oh God, don't do that to yourself. Why are you doing that to yourself? Like, because I know that I've been through a a lot and I've worked through a lot. I don't have all the answers, I don't have all my together. I don't live a perfect life. I'm I'm up and down. We're human beings, we feel, we we get annoyed and frustrated and angry and tired, and you know, we live on those lower levels, and and other days we're we're a bit higher. That that's the the human experience. But what I do know is that by doing the work and showing up and expanding my heart and my mind, the inner peace I have been able to find, the acceptance for myself, the the love and compassion that I have found for myself has offered me a real sense of peace and freedom. And and that is priceless. And and there's more to come. Do you know? I'm forever growing and evolving and learning. It I love it. I think it's so sad you touched on it just then when two people's lives are lost because one person died. I think that is such a tragedy. That really is a tragedy because in my mind, my belief system, what purpose does that serve? What do you gain from doing that? I I that's the thing that I sometimes go, it it achieves nothing. It just means that you live your life in pain and suffering and sadness when actually it could be different if you wanted it to be. But some people actually, some people are attached to the pain and the suffering and the sadness. Some people like to be in that victim state for various different reasons.

Claire 37:05

Yeah, and I think that's where, like I said, it people think they're honouring their grief because I look like the widow I'm supposed to be. I look really sad for the rest of my life, and that's what I'm supposed to be, because he was amazing, and I want that to be the case almost. But actually, from the outside, that's not really. I think a lot of people see strength in people, you know, if someone like you, you know, you're doing all your work with other widows and helping them out, people well, I there will be people because we were talking about the comments you get on social media sometimes, but the majority of people don't look at you and think, huh, she's moved on, she's got over it. Most people were like, wow, what strength. She's lost her partner and she's doing this to help others. That's incredible. We don't assume the grief has gone and that you're all over it and everything. So actually, it I think people do look at it differently from what people expect. And we don't do a lot, I've said this a lot on the podcast. We don't mark grief much, especially in this country anymore. And I think it's a great shame that we don't actually have the full black kind of garb to kind of visibly show people for a while afterwards I'm in grief. I think that would be so helpful just for the

Grief Literacy And Community Support

Claire 38:06

grieving process, because we do feel like we have to, we have to show like we're grieving. I have to not look too happy right now. I have to not, oh, I mustn't be laughing. My husband died four weeks ago. You know, we have all these things and expectations that we feel like we have to show because there's no other way to show. Actually, I'm going through a grief right now. So I do think in this country, because we hide it away so much, it puts extra pressure on people to feel like they have to show it in a certain way, which is a shame.

Speaker 38:28

It is a shame. And I think, you know, we live in a grief literate society. We don't understand it. We think grief looks like one thing, and that is like tears and sadness and and wearing black, and and that's how we think grief is portrayed. We think that's the the visual that you see when somebody is in grief. But my goodness, how narrow-minded is that? I mean, you could go out today, look around your street, you'll see somebody laughing. They literally might just be leaving their parents' house where their mum's just died, and they're sharing a story. Do you know what I mean? That's making them laugh. We we are so terrible at looking at somebody from a snapshot of their life, of what you're seeing in a moment, and making a general assumption about the whole of their lives. And what you see on the surface is in no way a reflection of what's going on underneath. And we're not very good at remembering that for ourselves and for each other, and we put this pressure on ourselves to show up in certain ways. Grief looks like many things. Grief, grief is growth, it's transformation, it's transformative, it's beauty, it's insight, it's sadness, it's pain, it's suffering, it's despair, it's devastation. And all of those things are true. And and actually, you know, it's like how do you let the world know that you are grieving? Well, let's just get better at talking about it, right? Let's let's give somebody the space to go, how are you? What's going on in your life? And and how are you feeling today? And and actually listening to them and and holding that space, not everyone, you're not gonna do that for the people in the street, but we're just we're not very good, are we? I don't think, at listening to people and and really, really asking, How are you?

Claire 40:11

Or even answering the question as a British person, how many of them do then just say we're fine? Isn't that? How are you? Fine, thank you. Fine, yeah. I've had to I've I've caught myself a few times recently, and I've tried and be honest, and someone a couple of weeks ago said to me, How are you doing? I was like, Yeah, fine. And I stopped and I was like, I'm not actually, it's been a really hard week. Yeah. And they were like, and they were so appreciative that I'd actually, but I'm trying to check myself because it just rolls off my tongue. How are you doing? I'm fine. It's like it's all part of the same sentence. So yeah, it's not very good. Um, one thing I was gonna say is is this an easier process if you have people around you that are helping you and supporting you? I mean, I'm guessing it can be done on someone can on their own, with no support, decide to suddenly focus on things differently. Of course they can. Have you noticed the benefit of being in a community or being in a group where you've got others that are doing the same thing? Does that help people or is it such an individual thing that actually it needs to be done on their own?

Speaker 41:00

It is a very individual thing, and I always like to honour people's individual ways. But I've got um a quote on my website, and I I can't remember who it is, a Keely, someone Keely, I think. Um you cannot heal in isolation, and you know, understanding that actually our healing resides in our relationships with others and in community. And you know, when I started out doing the work that I do, I worked one-to-one with people, and I got to a point where there were too many one-to-one clients for me to work with. I didn't have the capacity, so I I started a group, and that was back in 2020, and I had my first group program of about eight people finding open widowhood, it was six weeks long, and and then I set out to do a membership um where you know people could come in, remember. And those platforms, support um spaces are are huge. There's 200 in the membership, there's 110 that have just finished the the round this cohort of finding hope and widowhood. We start another one again in October. And I don't do one-to-one work anymore because honestly, when you come together with other people going through something similar, it's it's it's that you learn from each other because we all do this differently, because we all see things differently, because we all you know find our own different ways when we share those, and when you're really with people that really do get it, and not that they specifically understand everything because it's it's different for everyone, but there are so many common threads that kind of bring us all together. Um I can't even explain it, Claire. It's like magic. We actually had our final call, we had a graduation call for Finding Hope and Widowhood last night, and I see these women come in at the beginning of the eight-month programme, fragile, broken, apprehensive, unsure about what they've done, um, scared. And you watch the transformation, and and then last night at the graduation call, listening to their words and what they've gained and what they've learned about themselves and how differently they feel and what and what they've learned from each other. So, can you do it on your own? I'm not saying you can't, I'm sure there are people out there that have, but I think it would be so much harder and it would be so much longer. And I don't know that the end result would be perhaps as good as it could be if you'd done done it with people. So I'm I'm a huge advocate of community, of bringing people together. And you know, I know there's a lot of people out there that don't have family, that don't have a lot of friends, and that's why I do this because they they do in my world, because that honestly, it's so powerful.

Claire 44:00

It's lovely to know that exists out there for people who are thinking, oh, you know, she went through this, but she had all this amazing support that she talked about that was such a blessing and really helped her. And I don't have that in my life. How would I do it? So it's lovely to know that there are these communities out there. And also to know that one of our one of the widows we interviewed quite a while ago now, she was childless and lost her husband. And one of the things she was really struggling with was, who's going to support me? Like I have nobody. And she said that she was just shocked at the friends that came out of the woodwork to support her, that dropped their kids and like came running. And all the things she thought would stop them, like they've got a family, they can't come and do this and that. They just, it it just, it was so different from what she expected. And I thought, again, that's just a lovely example that you you don't know. You think you might know that you're not going to have anyone there, but actually the reality is there are people. But it's really good to know if you don't have maybe even a big network of friends and stuff, that there are support networks. And it's a weird thing because I remember the first time I went into a conference for infertility, and there was about, I don't know, maybe 30, 40 couples in the room. And um it's an odd thing to walk into a room where instantly everyone knows why you're there. For some people, you instantly knew their dark secret because they hadn't even told family that they couldn't conceive yet. So it was a very vulnerable thing to for them, all these strangers to know. But there's something incredibly relaxing and sort of peaceful and comforting about the fact all these people are going through the same thing. That power of not being on your own, not being alone in what you're going through and seeing other people. I I think it's huge. So I'm massive supporter of grief groups and bereavement groups and going and finding people that are going through the same thing. Because, like you said, I mean, I would say that probably even beats the support of a lot of family members sometimes to be with someone who knows exactly what you've been through.

Speaker 45:38

As so many women in my community say, Do you know, this is a place where I feel like I belong in a world where I don't know where I belong. And it's that the minute you walk into a room, whether that's virtually or in you know, in in a in a real room, um, you that you say it just feels safe, you feel held, you feel understood, you feel like you can drop the masks and you can just be you in that moment and and speak your truth and talk about it. That's the thing, like you can talk about it so freely. Yeah, you joke about it. Yeah, you joke about it. You like there's so much laughter. Like people come on my retreats and to my events, and they they come along and you know, you start chatting, and they're like, Oh my family think I'm mad. Like, why on earth do you want to go to a widow retreat? Surely that's gonna be really depressing. There's so much laughter, so much laughter, people are astounded because you feel so safe in that, and you're not being judged, and people know that just because you're laughing doesn't mean that you're okay with everything, you know. It's honestly it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Claire 46:39

It is. There's something even in shared, I found even in grief being shared across even different losses. We've had people on the podcast that have come on for really sad losses, and we're often laughing and joking with them before we start, and then we have to we have to check ourselves because when you start the the podcast, you can't sound all upbeat and cheery because the topic you're going to be discussing is a bit is is not quite so cheery. And we're laughing and joking because we're in the same space, you know. We know grief, even if it's not the same grief, it's completely different grief. But there is that safe place to joke about it, and when we're with other childless people, I mean people would be appalled at the conversations, but you can be so honest in a way you can't be around other people. And I love that. I think it's like you said it's so healing.

Speaker 47:18

There's so much healing in joy and laughter, and and I think there are there are definitely sort of in jokes, aren't there, in losses, and you know, whenever we come together as widows, and I'm sure for you in in in your community as well, you can say the things that when you say it to people that haven't had that experience, there's almost those tumbleweed moments of you're laughing, but you think you're hilarious, you've just cracked this really funny joke that's really inappropriate. But everyone around you is like, oh my god, I don't know what to do with that. Like, if what's she doing is that's not even funny? What are you saying? You then you're like, Okay, now I do it like an idiot. But when you're with other people, they get it, and you you say those inappropriate things, everyone just falls around laughing, and you're like, that that was the response I was looking for.

Claire 48:04

Exactly. I love it. Anyway, so shifting your focus, obviously, uh you know that I had a bunch of questions which you've already answered, which is has it helped you personally? Of course it has. There's obviously things that can stop it. Is there a a timeline

Glimmers Timing And The Torch Tool

Claire 48:16

on this? If you've got someone that you're dealing with in a group, is there a time where you're just like, I don't know, give it a few weeks before you start thinking about this stuff? Or are you with other people still the same? Like, think about it from day one. If you've got the capacity, obviously I know not everyone will have the capacity, but if you have the capacity early on, is it something you encourage people to start thinking about straight away? Or do you say, like, there's a grace period?

Speaker 48:36

Yeah, it's different for everyone. You know, I've I have people that come into my world and start my program when they, you know, they're literally like five weeks in or something. Um, other people will come in when they're like three or four years in because it it is all about capacity. It's it's all about you know, the person and who they are and how they feel. Some people are are kind of hungry for the the knowledge and the healing and the understanding. Others are like, I'm just not there yet, I can't face it, I I can't do it. And you know, I I'm never there to say you're you haven't reached this point in your grief yet, you can't you can't come to the grief support groups, but I will make sure that people are ready for you know for where they are in in their world. But I don't think it's it's ever too early just to plant seeds about what can help and to to kind of even if you can't do it in the moment, you know, you know, we talk about glimmers, don't we? For example, about um those those little micro moments that offer you some peace, some comfort for some joy, that maybe the birds singing in the trees, you know, the sun in the sky, or a warm shower, uh you know, anything really, the little things, and and I and I always introduce those really early on because I'm like, they're things you can start looking for. You might not see them, but if you start, if you plant that seed of okay, that's something that might come in time, it's there, and and you just you can't help but it infiltrates your mind and you start noticing it. And the more you notice things, the more you see of them. You know, it it really is that where you where you focus your attention, that's where your energy goes, isn't it? And the more you focus your attention in in certain ways, the more you'll see of that, and the the more you'll get from it. So it's never too early, even if it doesn't land with you or if it doesn't feel right, just hold on to it until it does. And that's what I say to people. You you know, it's just know it's there in your back pocket for when you're ready. If you're not yet, that's okay too.

Claire 50:43

So before I go on to my last question, for anyone who's listening who's considering this and is thinking maybe I need to do a bit of refocusing. What's the one reason that you'd say, or you can have more than one if you want, um, that this is worth considering? This is worth doing.

Speaker 50:57

It is the one thing I think that you can do that doesn't require a lot of effort, but can have such a huge impact on how you see the world, how you show up every day, the energy that you create within yourself and around yourself, therefore, what you kind of attract back as well. It will show up in your your choices, your decisions, your outlook, your conversations with people. It transforms so much. And and you know, just you'll know it. You'll know it, right? You we've we can all pinpoint people in our lives. You've got one person, a real negative Nancy, always looking at what they haven't got, what they can't do, what's wrong. They're moaning and groaning about the bumps in the road, they haven't fixed the trees, like their friends are doing this and that and whatever. And oh my god, this girl next door is doing this, and it's you know, you're not, it's just draining, isn't it? And then you've got the people in life that are going, oh my god, isn't it a beautiful day? Listen to the birds singing. I met my friend last night. You what just think about those two people? Who do you want to be? And one person is focusing on the negative, and one post person is focusing on what's good in their lives. That doesn't mean the person that's focusing on what's good doesn't feel bad sometimes, doesn't still see what's wrong in their lives. This isn't toxic posity, this isn't trying to sort of overlook the sadness, the grief, the loss, the pain. It's not, it's holding both. And and the the more you allow yourself to do that, the the more you will find your way through your your healing, you will see more opportunities, more possibilities, you will learn more about yourself, you will have a huge impact on who you are, how you show up, and who you become, and and and it ultimately comes down to who do you want to become? Do you want to be a negative Nancy over here? Do you know? Or do you want to be the person that walks into a room and people are drawn towards because your energy is beautiful? I know who I want to be.

Claire 53:01

Perfect, thank you. So, for my last question, if I go into my metaphorical shed, what tool would I come out with if I'm looking at a tool that represents refocusing where we look in grief?

Speaker 53:12

So I have decided to pick a torch because I'm assuming that people have torches in their sheds because they're usually dark, dank places. Uh so and I wanted to pick a torch because for a few reasons, you know, when you're thrown into grief, the world becomes very dark and bleak and heavy. And having something that can help you not maybe light up the whole path and the whole way ahead of you, but just helps you see your next step, I think is is really helpful, but also a torch because what I say to people is I'm what I do in my work is people say to me all the time, God can you've changed my life, you're amazing. Like, I don't know what I've done without you. And I always, I always kind of say, Look, they're lovely comments, but all I've done is helped you to shine a torch on the parts of you that you've needed to help you find your way through your grief. I haven't given you anything that you haven't already got. And sometimes we just can't see what we have within us to help us find our way through it. Everybody has everything that they need, they have all the answers, they have all the ability, they have all the resources, they have the their inner wisdom, their inner compass, their guidance to help them through this. And and that torch is going to help you find your next step, but also help you sort of shine a light on those parts of you that you need to see to help you through it.

Claire 54:44

A torch. I'm amazed that over 20 tools in, I'm still getting ones I don't already have. Another very useful tool

Links Support Options And Closing

Claire 54:52

indeed. And if you've been listening to my latest series, The Grief Tool Shed, then you'll know that I'm working through all the tools that have been given to me in Let's Chat Conversations, and I'm expanding on them to see how they can help us even more in our grief. If you want to find out more about Karen and her services, you can check out www.Karen Sutton.co.uk and I'll put links in the show notes for this and her social media. Thank you so much for this conversation, Karen. I know it will bless many people in their grief, whether they're new to the idea of refocusing, or maybe they're already doing it but could do with doing it a little bit more. And if you want to find out more about me and my husband Chris and our experience of infertility and childlessness, or the podcast or Herman's and loads more, pop over to thesilentwy.com. This podcast is ad-free, thanks to the generous support of some wonderful people who help keep it running. If you'd like to chip in, you can head to www.buymeacoffee.com/ the silentwhy and buy me a fancy tea, or two, I'm not really a coffee drinker, as a one-off treat. Or you can even support the podcast monthly. A huge thank you to those people who help that running. I am not a fan of ads in podcasts, and I would like to keep mine ad-free as long as I can. And don't forget there's another way to support the podcast, and that's by buying a Herman. These are small, crocheted grief companions that I personally make and sell. They're a meaningful alternative to send someone instead of flowers. Something lasting, personal, and comforting for anyone going through any kind of loss, whether that's bereavement or retirement or cancer treatment, whether they're in hospital, whether they're just lonely, whatever it is, Herman is the company they need. They also make a thoughtful gift for those unusual times when words just don't feel like enough, but you want to give somebody something. To find out more, visit www.thehermancompany.com. As always, all these links are in the show notes. Thanks for listening to The Silent Why podcast. If you've got a subject you'd like me to chat to an expert on, please get in touch via our social media or the website, or you can email me thesilentwhy@ gmail.com. And let's chat.