Chris & Claire's Chatty Christmas Catch-Up 2025

#141. Struggling with the festive season? You're not alone. It's not an easy time of year, and it’s been a season of both highs and lows for us too over the years. 

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss, and we're Chris & Claire Sandys, your childless hosts.

Each year, we share a Christmas episode where we check in with how we’re really feeling about the festive season, childlessness, and everything that comes with it. Some years, we’re coping well. Other years, not so much. So where are we in 2025? 

You'll have to tune in to find out, but a sneak peek would tell you that we chat about; what it's like being back in a cold, wintery, Christmasy UK (after 8 weeks in Australia), how we're both feeling about being childless, what a visit to our local cathedral was like, and, of course, the vital importance of Christmas food.

If you’d like to explore our previous Christmas episodes and blogs (as mentioned in the episode, plus more), you’ll find them all here: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/christmas

Our past Christmas episodes range from 'Chris' Loss of Christmas Spirit' (2021), to feeling hopeful and joyful (2024) and everything in between, plus, there's bucket loads of tips for gently rebuilding hope if the season feels a bit heavy this year.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back And Podcast Mission
• 1:20 Returning From Australia And UK Winter
• 6:20 Cosy Homes, Darkness And Fairy Lights
• 12:15 Christmas In Heat Vs Cold
• 17:30 Ideal Seasons And Climate Chat
• 19:40 Trip Expectations, Family Strains And Processing
• 23:20 Christmas Check-In And Annual Tradition
• 28:40 Wider Acknowledgement Of Hard Christmases
• 34:20 Food Joys, Limits And Health Frustrations
• 40:30 Finding Intentional Joy: Music And Carols
• 47:30 Carols’ Depth, Culture, And A Holst Fact
• 54:10 Practical Plans To Lift The Mood

Transcript

Claire: 0:02

Hello! And welcome to the Silent Why podcast.

Chris: 0:05

You've been getting really annoyed with me singing that Eminem song. "Guess who's back...."

Claire: 0:10

Yeah. It's not a great song anyway, but it's so repetitive.

Chris: 0:13

Yeah, we're back. We're back in the UK.

Claire: 0:16

Well, I haven't got to that bit. That was the next bit, next section. I was going to introduce a podcast first. Okay, this is the Silent Why podcast, a podcast talking about loss and grief and trying to find hope in it. And we're on a mission to find 101 different types of loss and grief. I've lost track of which one we're up to. I want to say 163.

Chris: 0:36

Oh no, it's not a loss. What? That you've lost track of what we're up to.

Claire: 0:39

No, no, it's not. This is going to be a really difficult episode. I can feed it already. Okay. Stop interrupting. Yeah, that'll be good.

Chris: 0:46

We're up in the 60s.

Claire: 0:47

Do you know what I said at the beginning that I would do the intro and then I'd introduce you at some point? You haven't even let me introduce you yet.

Chris: 0:53

Just too excited.

Claire: 0:54

I'm Claire.

Chris: 0:55

I'm Chris. Husband and wife. And in those 60 losses, there's been body parts, losses of loved ones, friends, family members, close and distant. There's been losses of identity, losses of unusual things. How have people processed them?

Claire: 1:12

Just seeing how long you can go without running out.

Chris: 1:14

No, I'm dumb. List of three.

Claire: 1:16

Okay. I've lost track of where we are now.

Chris: 1:18

Okay.

Claire: 1:18

Okay, well we're back. Yeah, so it's a podcast about loss. I'm Claire, you're Chris. We're back in the UK. We have been away. If you've heard any of our episodes, the last two episodes, well, three actually, they were about our trip to Australia. So we went to Singapore and Australia for eight weeks. And now we are back fully into Christmas. So yeah, how does it feel to be back in the UK?

Chris: 1:39

Well, it's nice sitting in a nice little sort of recording studio that we've made for ourselves. It's nice having our lovely microphones back, even though you like the little ones, the fluffy ones. Yeah, they were good.

Claire: 1:50

They did a good job.

Chris: 1:50

Uh I'm not missing the paranoia of mosquitoes trying to attack me while we're recording. I am missing a little bit looking out for cookaburros and bobtail lizards. That was nice. And I guess, yeah, one of the main things is the weather. Big change in the weather.

Claire: 2:07

I'm slightly distracted by the fact that the plant behind you keeps touching your head. Do you want to move that?

Chris: 2:11

Well, it's yeah. It's this I don't know what you're doing with this avocado plant you've been growing from a seed. You chopped it right back and it's come back bushy. Really one-sided. Now I'm sort of underneath it.

Claire: 2:21

It's so lopsided, bless it. It's winter. It will sort itself out. Anyway, yes, we are. Yeah, I do miss the cocoa borrows. I I thought I would want to live in a hot country. I think most people in the UK think they want to live in a hot country. But actually, having been in a hot country for a period of time, well not that hot actually, Australia wasn't that hot all. Periods of it were, but it wasn't all hot. But um, tasting things like Singapore, I've actually come back thinking no, I don't I wouldn't want to do a country that was hot all year round. I definitely need the cold snap, the fresh air, that filling your lungs with like cold, kind of wintery chill. I've decided I'm somebody who likes to come inside to the warm and outside to the cold. And all of these hot countries, you're outside in the warm and you're inside in the cold, and I just yeah, that's just just not me. So I'm more appreciative of England. I'm I mean I'm still like not enjoying the grey and the wet, which we've had a lot of this last week. But um when it's sunny in the blue sky and it's cold, I'm loving all that.

Chris: 3:20

Yeah, uh there's been days of that. You sent me a lovely video when I was at work last week, back to work for me, uh, of yourself in hat and scarf and happy in the sky was blue. We've had a few days like that, which have been lovely. Today's all today's alright. There's a bit of blue up there, it's quite a bit of cloud.

Claire: 3:36

From my view, it's grey, but I think if you look around the corner a bit, you can see some blue.

Chris: 3:40

Yeah, look through the avocado plant if you can, and there is some blue out there. Uh but we have had quite a few days where it's just been 10 degrees, constant drizzle or rain, dark, and then our house as well. We've got a north-facing house, and the sun is low. We're in a housing development, so uh yeah, you don't get much sunlight, and it just feels like the house is dark from the house.

Claire: 4:00

But we have to put like three o'clock in the afternoon, I'm putting lights on to do stuff. But the good news is because it's Christmas, you can switch the Christmas tree lights on, you can switch the fairy lights on, so it feels quite nice. I'm not looking forward to those dark days when it gets to January, February. Having said that, yesterday we had the shortest day of the year, so from now on our days should be getting a bit longer, which is really weird, because when we left the clocks hadn't gone back, so the days were still long-ish, and now they're getting longer again. So we've skipped the whole getting shorter thing completely. We came back, the sun was setting at 4 pm, and when we left it was probably, I don't know, maybe seven-ish still. So yeah, it's it's been a weird little winter for us, but I quite like skipping that bit.

Chris: 4:41

Well, part of your processing, I guess, of where we're at with the weather and the times build up to Christmas has been a slight obsession with increasing the number of fairy lights we have in the house.

Claire: 4:52

That's true. Yes, this year I bit the bullet and just kept going.

Chris: 4:56

Just kept going. So when you talk about the darkness in the house, uh, you are remedying that by adding more fairy lights.

Claire: 5:03

And I'm wondering how many of them could actually stay for the whole year.

Chris: 5:06

Yeah, well, I'm sort of not gonna be too surprised if I wake up one morning wrapped in switched on fairy lights.

Claire: 5:12

That'd be great. I'd love a husband that wanders around wrapped in fairy lights. Yeah. Just providing light.

Chris: 5:17

Well, the technology is getting better, isn't it? Because traditionally the fairy lights would just be plug in, switch them on, switch them off, and then they introduced the sort of little whatever the junction box where you can change the seven or eight different sequences of flashing. That was the next technological evolution. And now we've got fairy lights that work off batteries, which is great. But also now the batteries have sort of packs have a built-in timer, so they're on for eight hours.

Claire: 5:43

No, which is good and bad. I can't see a way around it. I mean, to be honest, they were $4.99, so they're not like the most advanced battery pack. I don't know how long they'll last. But yes, they've got a timer that's built in. So when you turn them on, they stay on for six hours and then they turn off for 18 hours. I'm struggling a little bit because I kind of want them on from about half past three till about midnight, but six hours doesn't do that. So I'm having to work out how late do I put them on, and then they go off before we go to bed sometimes. So that to be to be honest, if anyone's listening and they make fairy lights, um, I could do with eight hours, not six hours.

Chris: 6:15

Right. So that's annoying me a little bit. That's fine. We do have quite a few listeners in the fairy light manufacturing industry.

Claire: 6:21

Maybe they're all in that industry.

Chris: 6:24

So yeah, so there are more there are more lights up in the different rooms of our house and outside as well.

Claire: 6:29

Yeah, outside the house.

Chris: 6:30

They're providing some light for those returning. Even though I'm like, can we not just you know, I'm the tight northerner in Northern England scrub Scrooge, that's a bit hard.

Claire: 6:40

Scrooge wouldn't have fairy.

Chris: 6:41

Financially, so I'm like, they should go off when we go to bed. But you're like, what about the poor individuals walking down the dark pavements at midnight? And I'm like, we're paying for hours of electricity.

Claire: 6:54

Martin Lewis, the uh money guy over here that does all the kind of this is how to you know spend your money, he did a thing a couple of years back basically saying it's so cheap to run fairy lights, it really isn't worth worrying about turning them on or off to save any money. It doesn't count if you've like got the whole house covered in lights. But for the average person running fairy lights on their Christmas tree or outside the house with a couple of sets, it's so minimal. He said it's really not. You're looking at pence a month.

Chris: 7:19

I will try to believe you and adjust my expectation and screw you accordingly.

Claire: 7:24

Excellent. I mean it's doesn't come close to what you'd spend on beer.

Chris: 7:28

Why'd you always throw that one at me? 'Cause the only one I have.

Claire: 7:34

Yeah, exactly. So these are these I don't I don't have expensive hobbies, so they're my equivalents. Okay. Yeah. And we don't have children. Think of all the money we'd be spending if we're. We do. Should we spoil ourselves with this? Well we don't have children, don't we? This would be nappy money. We may as well spend it on fairy lines.

Chris: 7:50

Uh one thing that is nice is being back among the music, the imagery of your typical Western Christmas in an appropriate more appropriate climate. I couldn't accept Australia having wintry wonderland songs and it snowing and images of Santa Claus in his big red fluffy jacket and boots while I was wearing shorts and flip-flops. It didn't make sense when it was 30 degrees outside to be listening to songs about it snowing.

Claire: 8:20

It was very hard to feel Christmassy in Australia with all the songs and everything on while it was warm. It just doesn't compute. It's like, no, no, it doesn't work. And I wonder if you ever get used to that. And and vice versa as well, those who are used to hot Christmases, whether they ever get used to the cold. Maybe they do, maybe they're like, ah, this is what it's supposed to be. This is now it all makes sense. But um yeah, I think you know what you've grown up with, if you're around it for that long, it's very hard to shift something like that. So I really struggled to get I don't think I would have got Christmassy at all. I mean, we even had a Christmas meal with our hosts, like full on, they got us like little presents and they had the full roast and everything. It was very Christmassy, but it's sort of like, oh, I don't know, just but it's it's sunny. It doesn't seem right. Where's all the grey and the wet and the rain ruining the afternoon walk? And yeah, it just didn't feel right.

Chris: 9:07

You could aim higher than that. Where's the snow and the log fire?

Claire: 9:11

I think we have to let go of the snowy Christmas idea in the UK. It's so incredibly rare.

Chris: 9:16

Yeah, it's true. I think your your grass is probably greener in somewhere like Canada, isn't it?

Claire: 9:20

I feel like at the moment, someone you know, pitching all these different countries, like what has the best? We've got Lori, longtime listener of the podcast and guest twice on the podcast, good friend who lives in Canada, and she has the snow for like three months of the year, but they also get the heat in the summer, and I'm like, ah, I think that might be the best of all the worlds.

Chris: 9:38

And glorious autumnal or fall seasons of course they're known for their like maple leaves and stuff, aren't they?

Claire: 9:45

Yeah, so let us know. If you've if you know a country that has a better like division of seasons where you get a bit of everything and it's really nicely done. Because there might be some states in America that get it, like the exact four seasons or something. Let us know, because I'm looking for that perfect place. Right. It must be out there somewhere. Somewhere it still has four seasons.

Chris: 10:02

A nice, sunny, not overly hot summer.

Claire: 10:04

I don't mind if it gets too hot, just it needs to be a country that is used to it, can cope with it, and doesn't last too long.

Chris: 10:09

Okay. A nice wintry winter.

Claire: 10:10

So there's air conditioning available. Snowy winter.

Chris: 10:13

Yeah, a beautiful, colourful fall, autumn.

Claire: 10:17

And then a lovely sunny but not too warm, loads of nice flowers in the spring.

Chris: 10:21

Yeah. Although I would probably expect that most places in the world would say that their seasons are messed up now. That there's something globally that things are out of sync, and this is too long and that's too short.

Claire: 10:32

This is what we say, but there may still be somewhere out there that always has these things with the perfect conditions.

Chris: 10:37

I'm reminded of Michael from The Good Place. Although he was talking about humans, that the problem with you humans and him, his character in The Good Place is a demon, but it's a nice demon, isn't he? Uh but he says the problem with you humans, you're always too wet or too dry. Yes. And that's probably our that's probably our issue with the seasons, isn't it? Too wet or too dry. They're too wet or too dry.

Claire: 10:52

Yeah.

Chris: 10:53

Sorry, my brother. Anyway, yeah, that got depressing.

Claire: 10:55

Yeah. Right. We're back. We are. And I think it's safe to say that our time away wasn't quite as we expected or as we anticipated in the episode before we went.

Chris: 11:07

Yeah. We had dreams, didn't we, of what that length of time away would look like for us. But those dreams were not realised. Not on this occasion, anyway, maybe another nine-week trip away from the UK, we have to wait for that. There were things happening that were out of our control, family-related stuff that we were giving time and energy to that we weren't expecting to, which had a a big impact on our time. And while we're very open and honest about our own stuff, uh stuff relevant to us, this is about other people, so it's not our story to tell.

Claire: 11:34

Yeah. But it involved some, like we said, a shift in expectations, it involved some losses. There was some stuff that we need to process, getting back, and yeah, it's been interesting looking back at it now we're here, as one whole experience. I think that's easier to look at and process than when we were actually there. But yeah, it was different, very different from what we expected, and that's life, isn't it? I think things happen, curveballs come, you know, humans, people, weather, buildings. I don't know, everything in life is unpredictable. There's always things going wrong somewhere, and things change from what we think they'll be. And this is one of those things for us. So yeah, there's a lot to process now. We're back.

Chris: 12:11

And the flies. And the flies. Which is the probably the the one video that I've showed the most times when I've been at work when people have been like, what's it like? What was it like there? And I'd be like, Oh, let me show you. I've gone to the video of me, my up close face video covered in flies.

Claire: 12:26

Yeah. If you haven't heard the previous episodes, that will make more sense when you've listened to those. But yeah, there were a lot of flies around. Um in Australia, to be fair, Singapore not so much. But yeah, in Australia, flies.

Chris: 12:37

Home sort of sweet home.

Claire: 12:38

What without flies?

Chris: 12:40

Without flies. Although I just squashed a what do they call a fungus gnat out of this avocado plastic?

Claire: 12:45

We get a lot of those around, especially if you've got house plants. They uh they're just a given. But I don't mind them. They're they're harmless. Just buzz around.

Chris: 12:51

So it's Christmas, and we're building up to that. We're a few days away.

Claire: 12:54

Yes. So if you're new to the podcast, um over the years we've always done a Christmas episode to check in with how we're doing. So in the early days of the podcast, we did a lot of interviews and chatting to other people, and Christmas was a really good time for us to check in and just have a chat about how we're feeling about Christmas, how are we feeling about childlessness, where are we with heading into a new year. And we thought we'd do that live on the podcast and share it with you guys. So we've done that every year, and here we are again. Um, when we started the podcast in 2021, we started with an episode called Chris's Loss of Christmas Spirit. So uh yeah, we were a bit down on Christmas when we started the podcast. I think we've been through a few years of just feeling like we don't fit in if we're childless. A lot of what we wanted wasn't happening, it felt sad, it felt frustrating, it was I'm not a big fan of the word triggering, but it probably did trigger a bunch of things that you're trying not to think about. And yeah, it wasn't great. And we're like Chris especially felt like he just lost that excitement that you have as a child when you're younger about Christmas, and how do you get that back? So that year, if you're feeling in a place where you're really struggling with Christmas or you are in a it's sort of a I don't know, you're feeling a bit scroogey, then go back and listen to our 2021 episode because that will probably get you right where you are and help you understand uh what we did with that and how we were trying to be intentional about changing it. We also did an episode that year about the weird time between Christmas and New Year, because that was something I always struggled with. It's this sort of time where most people go back to work, but then a lot of people have like two weeks off. So everyone vanishes, especially those with families and kids. They might go off and do stuff, they might go and see family. I felt like it was a weird, sort of strange, quiet, bit lonely time. So we did an episode just chatting about what that looks like. Then in 2022, we did an episode called Finding Comfort at Christmas, and we had some guests on well, we didn't have the guests on, I asked previous guests to record some snippets for us about how they get on at Christmas and um what helps them find comfort even when they find it difficult. And we also talked about how the podcast had helped us prepare for that Christmas and how we were sort of trying to be more intentional. And then in 2023 we had another one just chatting about um again, Christmas and childlessness and how to find your Christmas joy again, um, but also why it might always be a bit sad. You know, if you've lost people, if you're dealing with grief, if you're just carrying that through life, there's always a sadness to Christmas, and we'd sort of explored that a bit. And then on Christmas Day in 2023, we put out an episode of clips from our guests telling us why Christmas is hard for them in their grief and what helps them. And then last year in 2024, we did another episode. Chris wasn't very well, which we've forgotten about until we look back recently, and you had a word that you'd shout every time you were coughing.

Chris: 15:34

Mistletoe?

Claire: 15:35

Yeah, and that meant I had to cut and just coughing out of the cue. That was the cue, yeah. So yeah, Chris wasn't very well, but we were chatting then about all the hopes we had for the coming year, and we had quite a few. We had our long trip to Australia, I was starting a new hormone treatment that was looking very hopeful, and I think overall, having learned from the previous Christmases, we were feeling in a really good place. We'd made Christmas very intentional, we were making it something that would kind of bring us joy and you know include all the bits that we love, and apart from your illness, yeah, it was kind of a good place. So that was last year. So we've been in lots of different places around Christmas. Um, so you might want to just listen back to some of those episodes depending on where you are and how you're feeling this year. But now we are in 2025. How are you feeling this Christmas?

Chris: 16:19

Well, before I answer that, I think one thing I've become increasingly aware of is just how much you hear now publicly talk of Christmases not necessarily always being times of great joy. Whether it's through churches or through groups, organisations. I think you hear a lot more talk now of people just being more aware of those that aren't, you know, let's not let's not assume that everybody's having the best time at Christmas.

Claire: 16:48

Yeah, possibly. I mean, I think every Christmas film and a lot of the TV stuff, I think they've always cottoned on that the best kind of watching at Christmas is for people to go through a hard time and then find some kind of joy or redemption at the end of it. So I think that has been the Christmas story with especially with fiction and films and things. They know you need a hard time in Christmas for it to become a happy ending. Um so I think it's always been there. But yeah, I think maybe it is creeping more into the um the services that people offer. I'm hearing more about blue Christmases and comfort Christmas services where they're put together for people who are struggling at Christmas. And it feels a bit more like with the even with the adverts at times, there's an element to something sad going on and then something happy happening, rather than just the big happy Christmas scene of like this is the gravy you want for your perfect Christmas. I think, yeah, I think there is a maybe people are picking up on it a bit more. And you don't want to go too far that way. We don't want it to be all depressing for everybody. But really good that there's a bit more acknowledgement because it will always be a time of highlighting family coming together.

Chris: 17:53

Yeah, but being honest, that certainly in this country, probably in parts of the West, there hasn't been a time like this with so much brokenness, with so much division, with so much ill health. What it seems like, what it feels like, that you know, there aren't many families. I can't think of any families really that I know that don't have some sort of fallout or sadness that they're dealing with. So, yeah, just acknowledging that, recognizing that, I think. Anyway, you asked me about me, how I'm doing.

Claire: 18:19

Well, it was just Christmas 2025, which that is part of Christmas 2025. And actually, I think just while you're talking about that, that's one thing that we can really offer and be aware of, I think, is just not doing that whole did you have a great Christmas? And we've talked about this many times on the podcast, but I think something like that is so big. When you're intentional and you go back to work or you're pre-go breaking up for Christmas or whatever it is, when you're chatting to other people, just be aware the chances are there's something about this season they're struggling with, whether it is missing someone, whether it's financial, whether it's you know, family members not being around, maybe it's a family unit that's not together, whatever it is, there's probably something there. So just acknowledging that and sort of finding a way to word your questions that don't imply it's going to be amazing, I think is a really lovely thing you can do for people, especially after Christmas, when you're asking how was your Christmas and not pushing the whole did you have a great where they feel like they have to say yeah and then just shut down on the other stuff.

Chris: 19:18

Yeah, that has definitely been very evident uh with just how many people say things like even like after this trip back at work, the vast majority of people will say, Did you have an amazing time? Which is quite a loaded question. Yeah. Because if you didn't, I sort of know why you say it, because you want that to be the case. Oh, did you have an amazing time?

Claire: 19:37

Yeah.

Chris: 19:38

But actually you need to, I think, just be more a little bit more neutral. How was your time?

Claire: 19:42

Yeah.

Chris: 19:43

What was it like? And I did share, do you remember a a year ago after after last New Year, that just a I think a really nice way with colleagues, if you've got a a decent relationship uh at work or friends, family, when someone says to you Happy New Year, just go, Yeah, to you too. Was it? You know. Or if someone says happy Christmas, you know, well, you know, do th do you think it will be? Yeah. Uh if you want to have that sort of conversation, if you feel like listening, caring, taking an interest in them, rather than just saying, Yeah, Happy New Year, and then that's it. Happy Christmas. Say, you know, was it a happy new year? Was it a happy Christmas? How was it for you?

Claire: 20:16

It can be so lonely if you know that your Christmas isn't going to be happy, or if you're on your own, or something like that, and then constantly people just throwing happy Christmas at you before they head out the door to their seemingly perfect Christmas, which they won't be having, but if they've got like a family unit that are getting together, there's always the assumption that that will be better than whatever you're having if you're on your own or if you're having a hard time. So to have a hundred people just throwing that at you before they go out the door, it's a really lonely, isolating experience to have one person that just says, you know, what are your plans? Are you looking forward to it? Not everyone is. Find out why. So yeah, I think that's really key. That's something so small but really important that we can do.

Chris: 20:55

And I'm generally doing better than you this Christmas, I think. I've Yes, yeah, probably. I'm more excited about Christmas. Probably for reasons of distraction for external things rather than internal. I think I enjoyed so much last year the food, uh, just the two of us, Christmas Day, you cooked an amazing lunch, which I loved. And then I loved eating all the bits for the days afterwards and the just the snacking on cold meats and cheeses. Don't stick your tongue out with me. Just because you have a crap digestive system. So uh so I yeah, so I'm really looking forward to things like that, the distractions, uh, the things that you know, the comfort eating, which isn't a good thing necessarily.

Speaker 3: 21:37

Sound so healthy.

Chris: 21:39

But I'm looking forward to that. So I'm yeah, I'm in quite a good place. Um and for me, I I've got quite a bit of time off work, which I wasn't expecting.

Claire: 21:46

Yeah, we really thought you were going to be dealing with all the on-call that no one wanted.

Chris: 21:49

Oh, I'd be thrown into working more than less, uh, but it turns out I'm not really needed very much. So because of how Christmas and New Year falls and days of the week, I've taken a few days off work, which has given me a whole week off work.

Claire: 22:03

You're pretty much off almost between Christmas and New Year, which hasn't been never happens, no.

Chris: 22:09

No. So that's that's lovely to consider as well. So you'll be you'll be less alone this year. Yeah, but you're still more miserable than I am.

Claire: 22:16

I think miserable's a strong word.

Chris: 22:18

It is, it's the wrong word.

Claire: 22:19

Yeah, I think last year I was you know, we've been so intentional about Christmas, I feel like I've got this got this sus, like this is gonna be good. And then there's a there's a lot of stuff in the new year we were looking forward to. This year, I feel like you know, we've yeah, we've come off the back of some stuff, we're really processing. My kind of annoying IBSy stomach is not working as I would like it to, and it's the worst time of year to have to keep saying no to food and nice drink. Um, and I've already got quite a a cutback diet anyway, because of things that I just can't eat or drink. So I don't drink alcohol and I can't have too much caffeine and not too much sweet stuff, and that already is you know painful. I don't think I'll ever get over the loss of stuff like that. And then at Christmas, when it's it's even less interested in eating stuff, I do find that really, really depressing. So I think there's a little bit of that going on because I'm I'm curbed in what I can and can't eat, which I would that's one side of Christmas I do really enjoy is the food. But also, like I was chatting to somebody yesterday about like looking forward to next year and stuff, and I just like ah, it's one of those years that's just empty with unknowns. There's nothing in next year yet, and that is a little kind of daunting slash depressing, I think, for me. I would like something in there. Uh there's the potential for the and last year I was starting this new hormone treatment, which we're really hopeful about, and has been good, but it's taken all year to get good, and we're not quite there yet, so I'm carrying it into another year. So next year could be the year when I do really hit the peak of it, and and there's every reason I will, but I thought that last year, so it's still like unknowns and no particularly like yay stuff ahead. So I think that's sort of making me think, oh, probably need to get intentional about that, but at the same time, I don't know if I've got the the mental energy. Um so yeah, so I'm sort of enjoying the Christmas side of things, but yeah, I'm not on the high I was last year.

Chris: 24:20

No, it's understandable actually. I need to be more sympathetic and recognise that you're pretty sort of like that. Specifically around the food and stuff. That is really grim. I mean when you've got a husband that's loving alcohol, loving the different beers and the hobby, the imperial stouts and the sickly sweet syrupy ales, uh, and all the food and the trimmings, you know. People we even say with friends and family, don't we? I can put anything in my stomach and it's I'm not sure. No, I'm very jealous.

Claire: 24:45

I used to have a stomach like yours when I was in my twenties or whatever, I could eat anything. So yeah, I really do do miss that. And even like the other night, we sat down and uh one thing a lot of our friends will know uh we're very good at is uh self-control when it comes to sweet stuff. So if we have chocolate, um like you know, the big bars of chocolate that you get, we get cadbries or something. We know people that eat those pretty quickly, but they last us. Well, we have a square and evening, so it probably lasts us a couple of weeks, three weeks. Um, and one of the things we love is a box of maltesas. That's Chris loves maltesers. Uh, and so we don't have them very often because they're stupidly priced. But when we do get one, we lock them in a Tupperware and then we'll have a few every evening. Well not even every evening, every few evenings, and um and that's a real treat for us, and we really enjoy it and it lasts ages. Uh but the other night you got the box of maltesas out and I had to say no to having any. And it's just like these little I think I'm gonna do an episode this year actually on like lost through IBS because there's a lot of people dealing with stuff like that. And uh for some people they eat healthily and they don't miss any of the other stuff, but I do, I do miss it. And saying no to something like that just breaks my heart a tiny bit each time I have to do it because I really want it. But you just learn after years of just not listening to that and going for it anyway and then not feeling great that you have to. So I've got I'm at that point now where I will just say no, but uh I don't want anyone to be under the illusion that that means I don't like chocolate, I find it easy, or that I want that to be the case, because uh yeah, it's definitely not, but it will get better, it will get better.

Chris: 26:15

Good, you tell yourself that.

Claire: 26:17

I'm forcing the mince pies. I'm like, I am gonna have a mince pie when I want one.

Chris: 26:21

And you well, you talked about the hormone treatment hope uh for this year, and this last year as well, we were hope hopeful of the fact that we had a big year with our trip, which is now behind us. So next year we we haven't got any sort of holiday thoughts or plans, nothing in place as yet.

Claire: 26:36

So uh yeah, it's a bit of a it's a We probably need to put something in it just to give us something to kind of look forward to. I think that helps.

Chris: 26:44

Okay, we've we've got a few days to go before Christmas. What can we do about what can we do about trying to help you, trying to trying to bring you up to where I am? Which isn't I'm not like in the not walking in the air. Um but how can we align ourselves in time for Christmas?

Claire: 26:59

I think the previous years uh of mulling this over means I don't feel like really down and you know depressed about things. I I feel like I know what I can do to make it better. And I think that I think it was the second year, like 2022 maybe, when we were chatting about it, and we were like, we need to get intentional. What do we like about Christmas? And we went through the stuff we really like, and then we made those part of our Christmases from then onwards, and that has really helped me. So I know I love having a Christmas tree, a real Christmas tree in the lounge. I love that. That's not something I'm ever gonna apologize for because I know there's some eco people out there that are anti that. Um, or or stop having. That is something that brings me a lot of joy. I really enjoy it. I love decorating it, I love the things we have on it that remind me of all the different things we've been bought, or we've been given, or we've we've purchased somewhere. Um, I love the fairy lights around the house and I've put extra ones up. I love the food and making things and making sure we have nice food that we really enjoy, um, which is fairly minimal for us. We're not even really high, we haven't got high standards on food even. Things like that I think we're putting in place. The music. Um yesterday we went to a cathedral and we experienced some carols. I do love the carols, so that was good.

Chris: 28:14

It was good. It wasn't uh I was expecting the wrong thing. It was quite a traditional service of what are they called, lessons and carols.

Claire: 28:22

Yeah, lessons of something and carols.

Chris: 28:24

So I I thought it was more of a sort of general public carol service. Um, but we only s collectively we only sang three carols.

Claire: 28:33

Might have been four, but yeah, no.

Chris: 28:35

There was quite a bit of choir stuff.

Claire: 28:37

There was a lot of what felt like Latin.

Chris: 28:38

Yeah, but moments of it were absolutely beautiful. Um moment like in fact, trying to dump this. Moment like this. Yeah, I found that utterly setting that that brought me almost to tears. That's a bit dramatic to say it brought me to tears, but it got me suddenly. I was like, I welled up and everything inside me tightened, and I was like, wow, that was really beautiful. So there were parts of it that I really loved. Uh, and there was quite a bit of it that was like I wanted to turn around and shout to the congregation, come on people, we've heard this one. Sing up. I thought I thought you disagreed, but I thought the singing was feeble.

Claire: 29:24

Yeah, I think you I think for a cathedral full of people, I can see why your expectations would be higher, but because I sit at the back of a lot of funerals where nobody sings the hymns they've chosen.

Chris: 29:35

I thought it's because you're a verger at the local church for a funeral, you don't just hang out.

Claire: 29:40

I love hanging out at a funeral. Yeah, because I do verging, so I'm I'm I'm at quite a few funerals. And um that's pathetic. I feel like saying to these people, why did you choose this hymn if nobody is gonna sing it? But um, you know, they're grieving, so it is a bit different. But I think actually it it wasn't too bad the singing, I thought, but I can understand why your expectation would be higher of what must be five, six hundred people.

Chris: 30:03

Yeah, we are Christians and we love church, we love church worship, and that service was not predominantly there for a worshipful congregation, was it? It was mostly done for members of the public. So there'll be a lot of people that won't go to church all year round and they'll turn up and do that because it's traditional. Yeah. Not necessarily wanting to participate. Um whereas if I think if it had been predominantly a church enthusiastic, evangelistic, charismatic, worshipful congregation, I think the roof would have been lifted off.

Claire: 30:31

Yeah.

Chris: 30:32

Uh but instead it was like, come on, people, sing up.

Claire: 30:36

It makes me sad because and I've done this on an episode or I did it on some social media a while ago. I definitely put some posts out. Carols, I think, connect with so much of the depth and the complexity and the sadness of what people feel at Christmas. There's some beautiful words there that really connect with it, and yet all we seem to listen to mostly is you know, White Christmas, or last Christmas, I gave you my heart. You know, it's all this sort of sad stuff, or it's like, I wish it could be Christmas every day, or it's amazing. Whereas carols are more they seem more realistic. There's there was a line in once in Royal David City where it it says, and he feeleth for our sadness. So that God connects with our sadness. There's the one about a weary world rejoicing at Christmas. There's that lovely line where it talks about um angels with their peaceful wings unfurled. There's all this beautiful language, and it's such lovely stuff to sing. It does make me emotional when I'm singing it because I feel like it really connects with me and where we are. But yeah, it's not something the rest of the world really engage with in the same way. They just kind of maybe they sing them at a a service if they go at all. We don't hear them on commercial radio and stuff much, so it's all the other sort of more traditional Christmas songs, which are more about, like I said, happy families and amazing white Christmases. Um so yeah, it's sad because they are a lovely part of the season and one of my favourite parts. So it was lovely to have some carols. I'd have been gutted if we'd have not had any carols because you know we haven't been at the usual church services that we would have been at um since we got back from Australia. So yeah, it was nice to do that. But yeah, there was a lot of some weird stuff. Like there was some there was a lot about an apple, Adam and an apple at one point. There was a song that was well, several songs that were in a completely different language. I had no idea what was going on then. There was one that talked about Mary's sheer delight as she gave birth. And I'm thinking, that can't be right. Where have you got that from? Yeah. What woman do you know that just has sheer delight as she gives birth? So yeah, there was some there was some stuff there. I'm just like, really? And there's a T. S.

Chris: 32:30

Elliot poem that was very I didn't follow that.

Claire: 32:33

I was looking forward to that. I saw T. S. Elliot and it was about the the Magi and the journey that the wise men made. I thought, oh, this will be cool, and listened to it being read and just thought, yeah, no, that doesn't really.

Chris: 32:42

Didn't that end up talking about death? Wanting a different death. Oh. That's like I don't know what the point was.

Claire: 32:47

We were talking about snow and like the camel's lying. I was like, weren't these guys from like Egypt? Aren't this isn't it well, didn't this all take place in hot countries? I'm not quite sure where even the imagery was coming from. So yeah, it was a mixed bag. Yeah. But we did queue for an hour to get in. Hour and a half. Hour and a half.

Chris: 33:03

You know, yeah.

Claire: 33:04

So uh yeah, they're very good.

Chris: 33:07

We did go two years we tried to go two years ago with a couple of friends that we took and we went half an hour early and then didn't get in. Couldn't get in. We got turned away. I paid eight pounds for parking to stand in a queue outside for about 45 minutes. Fifteen of those were spent in disbelief. Like, what do you mean we can't get in and then have to turn around and go home again?

Claire: 33:24

The queue was I don't know how many people didn't get in last night, but they do it three times, and yeah, you need to get there pretty early. I mean, that's impressive. There's still a demand for it.

Chris: 33:32

I want to pause for a fun fact. And the uh another of your when you were listing carols and things that speak into the weary world, in the bleak midwinter.

Claire: 33:41

Oh, that's one of my favourites.

Chris: 33:42

And one of the tunes for that, one of the because there's a few different versions of it. One of the more popular ones, I think it's in Ooh. No, I don't know, actually. Is it in the bleak midwinter? Is it that one? That's not not my favourite tune, that wasn't it. The other one, in the bleak midwinter. Yeah. That one, that tune is called Cranham, which was written five minutes up the road from us in Gloucestershire. Ah. So Gustav Holst wrote it in Crannam, the village of Cranham. Cool. So that tune, so there were a little fun fact. Oh, I do like that cow. I think I've I hope I've not got that wrong. I should know these Gloucestershire facts.

Claire: 34:15

Let's find out. Uh so there we are. I love a live Google. Cranham in the bleak midwinter. I've typed in beak. In the beak midwinter.

Chris: 34:30

Yeah.

Claire: 34:31

Uh Gustav Rolf. That's right. Yeah, it was that one. Yeah. No. Yeah, so it is Cranham.

Chris: 34:35

Yeah, but uh what you've not been able to demonstrate for us right now is which version of it it is.

Claire: 34:40

Oh, I see. I can type in Cranum tune, there's probably a website. Oh, hymnary, that always plays stuff to me when I don't want it to.

Chris: 34:44

Is it gonna play out play it out loud? It usually plays it out loud. Is it the Cranham version?

Claire: 34:47

Wherever I am, I get embarrassed and have to try and stop it.

Chris: 34:50

This is like sus massive suspense, isn't it?

Claire: 34:53

Oh, don't tell me they've stopped playing it out loud.

Chris: 34:56

Or is there even the notation?

Claire: 34:58

Yeah, there, look, you can read the music. Yes, it is, there we go. That's my favourite tune as well.

Chris: 35:05

So there we go. That's the end of the fun fact. We spent enough time dwelling on that. So yeah, so uh forevermore, if you're singing that song, uh that particular version, then know that uh the tune for that was written by Gustav Holst in uh Gloucestershire. I remember in the village of Cranham.

Claire: 35:21

And I do, um even though I love that one, I do ignore the fact it's all about snow and frost and cold. Again, in a hot country.

Chris: 35:27

But uh something made moan.

Claire: 35:29

Frosty wind made moan. There we go. And we moaned. Earth was hard as iron, water like a stone. So probably not accurate.

Chris: 35:36

No, that was that famous winter of eighteen seventy-three in the Cranham. I don't know what years he lived and died, but there we go. So uh okay. So what are we gonna do to make your Christmas better? This you just expect real realistic.

Claire: 35:51

Yeah, I think realistically I need to I'm actually keeping my diary fairly clear. I've been catching up with friends that you know I want to see what since we're back, which has been nice, but um other than that, I've kept it pretty clear of social stuff, partly because that all plays into my stomach and stuff. So I want it to settle it and get it good as good as I can, so I can enjoy it over the festive weekend. So for me, it's actually just yeah, doing nice things. I'm watching some, you know, sort of crappy Netflix films, Christmas films, enjoying those. And just for the twelfth time. No, actually, no, I'm only watching new ones. I don't really watch repeats for Christmas films very often unless they're real classics.

Chris: 36:26

Well, th that that doesn't apply to TV stuff because you love more than anything rewatching all the stuff that you watched many times.

Claire: 36:33

TV episodes, Christmas episodes of things we love, then yes, I would definitely watch those like we w The Ghosts Christmas special. That's brilliant, King Gary, Ted Lasso, watched that last year. I remember I might watch that again. Um Shits Creek.

Chris: 36:47

Of course, that was the first to go on this show.

Claire: 36:49

There's no Christmas good place, I could that would have been a good one to do.

Chris: 36:51

What's that thing called? We watched yesterday, the play that went wrong?

Claire: 36:54

Oh yeah, uh The Play That Goes Wrong. What went wrong show. Yes. I'll sing it, recommend that if you've ever seen it. It's uh a play. It's people putting on a play. But it all goes wrong every time. But it's very funny, very cleverly done. They're all on BBC iPlayer, and there's two Christmas ones of those, so there's a Nativity, and there's another one. They're probably really good to watch with kids actually as well.

Chris: 37:16

If you're outside of the UK, sorry about that. You are excluded.

Claire: 37:20

It might be available on another platform, who knows?

Chris: 37:22

Goes wrong show.

Claire: 37:23

But uh yeah, that's always good to do that. Oh, Gavin and Stacey Christmas special, that's another one to throw in.

Chris: 37:27

I will be mindful as I'm munching on Maltesers behind you, not too to pace myself. Have five ones. If you say no after the third Malteser, I'll be like, okay, that means I'll have two more and put them away. I won't rub it in.

Claire: 37:42

Thanks. I appreciate that. Um yeah, I think that's some and we've been making mince pies and stuff, which I do enjoy.

Chris: 37:48

And you made marzi pan, even though you had some with your mince pie yesterday and it was probably half a teaspoon on your plate of marzipan.

Claire: 37:55

Well, that's not really good for my stomach, so I have to be very careful, but I can't not have it. It's my grandma's recipe. It's an acquired taste, it's semolina butter, sugar, pretty much. And we used it's an old-fashioned recipe, I think, from back in the war and stuff. Uh and she used to put it about an inch thick on her Christmas cake, and a lot of my family weren't too keen on it, so I would go round hovering up all the icing and marzipan bits that were left over.

Chris: 38:18

Hovering up all the marzipan that's clever. Very lightweight marzipan.

Claire: 38:22

I would hover near the people until they'd finished their cake and then hover up what was left over. Um yeah, so I love it. So I make myself a little tupperware of it, and I just take a spoonful out of it and add it to stuff I want to have marzip. Half a spoonful out of it. It was half a little bit more. It'll get more as the week goes on. Don't you worry. I had to stop myself from just having it like all year round eating it.

Speaker 3: 38:42

Yeah.

Claire: 38:43

But yeah. The other thing that um obviously we need to tap into, because we always check in on this at Christmas, is how are we feeling about childlessness and being childless at Christmas? For those again who are new, this is not a new journey for us. We went through well, I think in 2010, if I remember correctly, we found out that it was going to be tricky for us to have children. And and from then onwards it was, you know, talking about all kinds of stuff and looking at IVF and everything like that. So that's 15 years ago. So um yeah, and we were trying I think for kids just before that. So we worked out the other day, our kids would be around 16 years old now. Um so we're not looking at I know previously you said you always think when you think about not having children, you think about having a baby around. Whereas I thought more about the older children, but yeah, well, where are you 15 years on? Where are you with that now? And I haven't actually asked you this for months, so this is gonna be new information for me.

Chris: 39:35

Yeah. Mostly mostly good. I think mostly good. I I s still recognise in me a slightly unhealthy need to distract myself. So they're not actually saying that because I think one of the things I'm reminded of as I'm thinking is that we've said many times over the years that just Carlessness is not going to be something that we will get over and then it will be dealt with. It's going to be something that we will keep dealing with for the rest of our lives because there'll always be ages and stages, things happening, even in our time away. I think one of the things we were thinking of, and with with certainly myself, parents that are aging, uh, and we're more involved in just looking out for them than we have been over the decades, is it makes me ask questions like, oh, who's gonna look after us? Who's gonna visit us if we're in a home or in some sort of accommodation living wise? You know, I really hope that there are friends that we have, I don't know, child children of friends.

Claire: 40:46

Well, our friends will be the same age as us, so they won't be any useful.

Chris: 40:49

Visit us, maybe, or maybe not. Not everyone has a a brilliant older life if they're in care homes. There I'm sure are many people in care homes that don't have visitors, so I don't want to assume anything, but it just makes me ask questions like that. I think the more I've become aware of it. But I'm just saying that just to remind myself that yeah, this isn't going to be something I process, I deal with, and then it's gonna be forgotten about. This will be something I will never forget about. So it's how do I healthily continue to deal with it? And I think I'm I'm doing better than I've ever done in recognising it, uh, in not dwelling on it, but knowing that it's always there, and there will always be things that I acknowledge and times where I'm a bit sad. And yeah, I'm okay, I'm okay with that. So I think to answer your question, I'm probably in a in a pretty healthy place, even though I did say I recognise some bad health in distracting myself. You know, and not just about childlessness, but about all things. My way of dealing with discomfort is comfort, is forcing myself to find comfort, and I think that's quite a bad thing. That's quite a bad thing. I would say stereotyping or generalizing for the entire Western world, that we are very bad at dealing with discomfort, that we will race to find something to make us comfortable. And for me, that might be food, that might be drink, that might be entertainment, that might be going out. You know, I just need I need distraction from this discomfort. And I think looking at us, we're surrounded by people in our nation that will comfort themselves with food, alcohol, drugs, because they don't like the discomfort of the life they're living. Oh, this is getting really deep, isn't it? It's deep, isn't it? Yeah. So I I have tendencies in myself for that that you know and you help me with, and I frustrate you at times because I'm trying to force my distraction on us both that we need this. Uh, and then I will look back and be like, Oh, I had such an opportunity there just to sit and I'll use the word meditate, even though I don't mean that in a sense like, oh, but just to sit with, to think on, to journal, to read, to be still.

Claire: 42:58

Marinate.

Chris: 42:59

To marinate. I'll look back and be like, oh, I had such a good opportunity then, but I was too much in my own head of frustration and disappointment and anger to actually allow that to happen. I should have planned for that.

Claire: 43:09

Hmm. That's interesting, because I hadn't really thought about you when you want to do something like that as distracting yourself um from something. I I wouldn't think to actually say, actually, maybe no we shouldn't, because you need to sit with this uh maybe in a roundabout way I had, but I hadn't specifically. So that's yeah, it's a good reminder to me of just knowing how you cope with that. Because I was thinking while you were talking, it's interesting how each I mean, we we like the Enneagram, don't we? Each different Enneagram type or different personality type, different people have different ways of of trying to get away from things that are uncomfortable, whether it's distraction or whether it's, you know, trying to change the definition of what you're going through to something that makes it seem really good, you know, like denial, or maybe it's focusing on others and not yourself. Um there's lots of different ways that we we do that, and then we justify it as good. Well, I'm busy, so it's good. I'm going out and about, I'm socializing, so that's good.

Chris: 43:59

Or it's a delicious 12% imperial stout. I'm enjoying it. It's like, yeah, but you can have a cup of tea.

Claire: 44:05

Or I'm looking after someone else, you know. I'm I'm looking after them, so therefore that's a really good thing. But it's like, well, is it you need to deal with your own stuffs as well. So um yeah, no, it's interesting. I think it's it's always gonna be difficult. Like you said, I don't think it's ever gonna go away. It's not really a grief that feels like it gets better. It just keeps changing um because it's not one thing. I think, you know, I lost my grandparents and and that's sad and I miss them. It's not as sad now as it was at the time. I miss different things about them maybe. Um, but I feel like it gets easier. It was a natural death, you know, in the right order of things. There's a level of that that feels like you can get to a point of having a healthy memory of them and know that it's sad, but also, you know, I feel like it gets better. Um whereas with this I feel like it just keeps changing. So I don't know what I'm grieving. Um one minute you're grieving the fact your friends are having babies and getting pregnant and all that side of things, and then the next minute your friends' kids are going to school and then they're going to university and it's all new things, and you know, I'm sort of dreading the bit where they will start getting partners and then having kids and the families get bigger and they get to exp our friends experience grandkids, all that kind of stuff. I'm like, oh my word, that's gonna be That's a strong word though, dreading. Yeah, it is strong. But I think that will be a harder stage in some ways, because I was never like a you know, one of those crazy baby people. Um but the idea of having a family around you or meeting your partner your kids' partners or ha seeing them have children that are related to you, but you know, all that sort of experience, I think, oh that that feels even more, I don't know, exciting in some ways. Um so I just think at the moment we're in the middle of that, we haven't got that, but I know it's ahead. So it just keeps changing. It's a and I think maybe dreading because it's a different grief to have to process. And I'm not processing it right now because I'm not watching it, but I know that even though I'm aware of it, once I start watching it happen, it will be a little bit harder. So I do hope I'll be in a a healthier place by that point so it doesn't affect me. But I don't really know how you you get to that place. I do think if I had um if I was at work, I'd have a had a job, if I had a successful career, if I had something that was going on that I was really proud of, um, then I think that would distract me, whether that's healthy or not, from other things I don't have. But I do find it difficult when I'm in conversations with people, especially women, because you just compare yourself to women, who have a good job I don't well maybe you don't, who have a good job and they've got a family. Uh no matter how hard it sounds or how tough it sounds, there's just something in me that just always feels a little bit left out. Like I don't fit. Um I should be the one saying, I'm tired because of this and that and the other, or I'm worn out because I've been running the kids here, there and the other. And even though all that is difficult, um to not have any of that in your life doesn't feel like a plus.

Chris: 47:02

Uh yeah, you do use that word fit quite a lot in conversations about where do I fit. Yeah. I think that's a big thing for you.

Claire: 47:09

I'd like to get to a point where I don't feel like I need to fit anywhere, but it's very hard to not I'm I'm fine, you know, normally, but then when you get in one of those situations and you feel like you don't fit, I don't know what you do with that. So I think that will always be there. But it certainly doesn't I don't come home and cry about any of it. It doesn't like make me it's just a sort of a it just taps into a bit of a deep sadness inside of like, oh that isn't my life. But then, you know, you get on and you try and make what you have of your life. So it's not like it's awful, but like you said, I don't think it will ever fully go away. I don't know how I would ever become the person where it fully goes away. But um yeah, who knows?

Chris: 47:44

Yeah, okay.

Claire: 47:45

There's hope.

Chris: 47:46

Reminds me of another Christmas carol, traditional Christmas carol, Away in a manger. Um, end of one of the verses, and fit me for heaven to live with thee there.

Claire: 47:55

That's right, fit. But I don't want to go just yet. No. I think I'm I'm ready to unfit for a while and then I'll think of it. Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna eat so much food. I honestly believe that in heaven there's no toilets. I don't think we have to deal with that side of things. So you can eat whatever you want and it just sort of vanishes into the store.

Chris: 48:15

Right, there's no waste.

Claire: 48:16

No waste. No, it's just all amazing. Some people have this real vision. I think this is what frustrates me. I want to tell the world, Christians, or a lot of Christians, don't think heaven is floating around on a cloud playing a harp or hanging out with angels or like suddenly becoming holy. You know, for those of us that look at the Bible, it talks about a new heaven and a new earth. That means this place we are in now, all the amazing things, all the beautiful waterfalls and the nature and the mountains and the food and the animals and the relationship, everything about this world that's amazing is in the new earth. This is not like some, oh, we'll float around in the heavens. No, it's really cool. So, you know, you want to be there.

Chris: 48:54

And you'll be potentially, you talk about not floating, but you might be hovering around people's plates. Hovering up the marzipath.

Claire: 49:01

We'll be hovering. Maybe we all hover in heaven. We might all hover. You know, who knows? You get perfect body as well. Definitely looking forward to that.

Speaker 3: 49:09

Right.

Claire: 49:09

Yeah. And me and you have made a pact that we're gonna find each other, because obviously you're not married in heaven, but Well, that's more your pact than mine. We're gonna Hey, don't leave me alone.

Chris: 49:18

Okay, I'll be distracted with the multitudes.

Claire: 49:20

We've made a pact. We're gonna be the only couple that defy heaven and find each other.

Chris: 49:25

Right. Okay, thank you for sharing that.

Claire: 49:27

One thing I did want to share on this episode was what would be your top tip? So for people out there that are finding Christmas hard, this year is like, oh, this is gonna be a tough one. Um I'm lonely, or I'm sad, or I'm really missing somebody, or I'm not looking forward to what's happen you know, what's coming up. What would be your top tip if you're finding Christmas hard from your personal experience to try and bring some hope or joy?

Chris: 49:49

Yeah, okay, good. Uh good. Well tanged, I've actually got an answer to this because of what I was thinking on in the cathedral carol service that I had a mixed experience at. So uh my top tip would be to recognise now that it's not gonna be perfect, that it's not gonna go all your way, but there will be moments and think on those. So the cathedral, as we mentioned, there were moments of utter beauty, and it was just wow. And there were times of disappointment, and common people sing up where I wanted more, I wanted louder, I wanted grander, I wanted bigger, and it wasn't there. But there were moments. So, do I come away and just talk about the bad and the disappointment and the frustration, or do I think on the moments of actually that was glorious? Uh the setting was incredible, you know. How fortunate to be in a building like that that dates back thousands of years. Uh such incredible architecture that is a huge destination for tourists. You know, we've just come back from Australia where it's like history goes back 200 years, and we're around buildings that go back thousands of years. So, you know, recognising that not everything is going to be perfect this Christmas for you. There's not everything is going to go your way, not everything is going to be great and memorable, but there will be moments and think on those.

Claire: 51:06

Nice. That's not dissimilar from mine, actually. So mine is, I think it's summed up in the expression, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. And you might think I'm heading for baby Jesus, which I'm not. It wasn't anything to do. Although as a Christian, you could take that as a, you know, remember the baby and all that. But actually, it's more about the things that have helped me the most have been to find something about Christmas that you love and intentionally put it in place. And this is not a new message from us or from me on this podcast, but it has helped me hugely. And it might just be the lights. Just putting up one set of fairy lights in one room, even if you don't feel like it. It might be just making some mince pies or buying some mince pies, it might be marzipan, it might be going to a cathedral and hearing some carols, it might be putting on some music at home on Spotify that's Christmas. I don't know what it is about Christmas that you love. There might be one tradition that you did with your family or with your mum or your dad or a sister or somebody and you just do it on your own. And you're sad that you're not doing it with other people or whatever it is, like you said, it's not gonna be perfect. I think that is a really good starting takeaway. It's not gonna be perfect, but don't throw the whole of Christmas out and lose everything you love about it at the same time. I think you could very easily throw the baby out with the bathwater and just think Christmas, I'm not doing any of it, it's rubbish, it's bad, it's depressing, I'm just gonna skip it. I'd say no, don't do that. Find things that you love. If you're on your own on Christmas Day, make yourself a meal that you really enjoy or buy a meal, get a meal catered for you. I don't know. Do something, don't just give up on it all. Even if you just create a tiny little tradition for you, um, do something that you really enjoy that makes it memorable because it's it's really sad when you have a bad Christmas. It's horrible, and to intentionally allow that to happen um I think is not good. So even if you're grieving, even if you've had a horrific grief in the last week or so and you're going into Christmas, carrying this, knowing you can't do a normal Christmas, that's fine. But find one small thing that you can do that just makes Christmas a little bit more meaningful for you. So not a lot, not dissimilar, but um I think they make a huge difference. And for me, obviously, you know, part of that is my faith and the Christian the Christmas story um is about hardship, it's about tough times, it's about a family that weren't where they wanted to be, they weren't doing what they wanted to do. There's a lot of you know bad rumors around about you know the how Jesus came into how was conceived, and Mary's suffering with all this stuff, and there's these weird men coming to visit, and they bring, you know, inappropriate gifts and all this sort of stuff.

Chris: 53:41

What are you coming with weird men and inappropriate gifts? That wasn't in my school activity.

Claire: 53:46

But you know, Mary just given birth, you know, gold gold, myrrh, and frankincense are not useful new baby gifts, are they? They're weird, they're a bit odd. They're like prophetic, but they're they're a bit strange. The meanings behind them are lovely.

Chris: 53:58

Very high value though.

Claire: 53:59

Yeah, but she's she's about to become a refugee in Egypt. Running around with this stuff has probably made them more vulnerable to thieves.

Chris: 54:05

A handful of that before. Cheers, guys, we're gonna do with this now. We're about to flee.

Claire: 54:10

I don't know. Exactly. All I'm saying is it's not a perfect story. It didn't go as everybody planned, it was hard. So, yeah, you know, connect with that. That's where we're supposed to be at Christmas. If you don't believe in the Christmas story, why are you celebrating Christmas? You know, that's where we come from. That's what this is about, and it's a tough story. And if we'd have kept with that, I think more people would feel happier at Christmas because it's about something that's difficult. It's not just about the joy of a new baby, which a lot of people see. So, yeah. So connect with that if you want to, but if that's not your thing, find something that is your thing, connect with it and find meaning. Maybe it is light in a dark world and you just put some fairy lights up. It could be whatever, but yeah, find something. That's helped me anyway.

Chris: 54:50

Amen.

Claire: 54:51

And yeah, as as a parting gift, I guess. Well, it's not really a gift, don't get too excited. I haven't got gifts for the listeners. Um weird gifts. Yeah, weird gifts. Um, here's a hug. Oh, nice. You actually did the arms. I did the arms, yeah. It's a hug for you as a listener. Feel the hug. Put your arms around yourself, just feel a hug from the silent Y. Um, no, but it is about giving to others. So I think I'd also want to say, think about what you can give to other people. And it might be an episode from this podcast. There might be someone you know who is struggling. We've got loads of stuff. I've also got, if you search for hopelets on our list of episodes, I did five hopelets and I put them out in 2021 and 2023. And they're five days of just trying to help you if you're really struggling with hope. If you feel like you haven't got any hope, if you feel like your hope is weak, if you feel like you need some guidance, all there's five different aspects, and they're 10 minutes long, they're really short episodes, just to give you some hope in five situations when you might be struggling with it. So maybe there's something that people need. Maybe you need that. Maybe you want to um, maybe you've learned some empathy from this podcast and you want to share that with other people. Maybe, like we just said, you want to ask people how their Christmas was in a different way. Maybe you want to spot someone that's struggling that no one else will notice and help them out. Maybe you want to give them a Herman just to show they're not alone. They're a great gift in January, February, when all the Christmas and New Year buzz is over and someone's a bit sad. Why not just send them one of those and say, hey, I see you. You know, you can gift loads of different things. I'm not talking about financially to the podcast. We love that. Of course we do. That keeps it going. But um, you know, I think these are nice things you can give other people that have come from us. And also you can gift us in return, because then we get listens, downloads, Herman sales, new listeners. We love all that. It's a big gift for us. So uh there's lots of giving that can be done in all directions.

Chris: 56:36

Beautiful. If that made any sense, yeah. It did. Great.

Claire: 56:40

Do you have a a last wise word from Chris at this this Christmas? No. Oh come on. I thought I was taking you up for something really wise last minute, no?

Chris: 56:50

No, no, we said it all. I'm just gonna sign up in the usual way that we'd like to sign off our Christmas episodes.

unknown: 56:56

G'day.

Chris: 56:57

No. No, it's uh it's uh in unison. Christmas greeting. Why are you looking at me like you can't remember what we do? We do it every year.

Claire: 57:05

I've got a feeling it's not just Merry Christmas.

Chris: 57:08

It's close. You got one of the words, right?

Claire: 57:10

Oh no, I have forgotten it. I've been away a long time.

Chris: 57:13

Put it down to menopause brain.

Claire: 57:16

Yeah. Okay.

Chris: 57:17

Hopey. Got it, yeah. So we do. We don't wish everyone a Merry or a Happy Christmas, because it's not merry or happy for everyone. But we do wish them a Hopey Christmas.