Loss 65/101: Loss of a friend: Hannah Rumsey

#137. Can losing a friend be overlooked in our culture? What happens when the friend who knew you best is gone? And why are there so few resources to help with this kind of grief?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to explore grief, asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #65 of 101: Loss of a friend

In this episode, we meet Hannah Rumsey from Chicago. She's the founder of Friends Missing Friends, a community she created for people navigating the loss of a friend. And Hannah’s work grew out of her own story, when in 2015 her best friend Lauren died suddenly.

Hannah shares about the deep bond she and Lauren had, Lauren’s incredible zest for life, and the devastating way she first learned of her death - while posting a birthday message on Facebook.

Together, we explored the unique challenges of grieving a friend, and why this grief can feel invisible or minimised, how few resources exist for friend-loss grief, despite how common it is, and the surprising ways healing, and hope, can unfold over time.

This is a heartfelt and open conversation about a form of grief that isn’t often acknowledged, yet touches so many lives.

And for listeners who enjoyed my behind-the-scenes episode on how to make a podcast - there's a little bonus in this episode - some unedited audio that shows just how in sync Chris and I are with our questioning. 👌

For more about Hannah, Friends Missing Friends, and her podcast:
https://www.friendsmissingfriends.com
https://www.instagram.com/friendsmissingfriends
https://www.facebook.com/friendsmissingfriends
http://friendsmissingfriends.com/griefgroup

Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/friendsmissingfriends

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Lauren and Instant Connection
• 8:30 Finding Out Through Facebook
• 15:12 Disenfranchised Grief and Loneliness
• 24:18 Creating Community for Friend Loss
• 32:55 Being Witnessed in Grief
• 41:40 Hope and Healing Over Time
• 50:29 Love Continues to Expand

Transcript

Hannah Rumsey: 0:02

Hi, my name is Hannah Rumsey and I'm here to talk about grieving the loss of my best friend, Lauren.

Claire: 0:12

Welcome to The Silent Why. A husband and wife on a podcasting mission to find 101 different types of loss and to hear from those who've experienced them. I'm Claire.

Chris: 0:20

And I'm Chris, and this is loss number 65. We're in England. Hannah's in Chicago, illinois. She's the founder of Friends Missing Friends, which is a community she started a few years ago for people grieving the loss of their friends. That work has grown out of her own story. When, in 2015, her best friend Lauren suddenly died, hannah told us about the bond they had and Lauren's huge zest for life.

Hannah Rumsey: 0:43

I feel like a lot of people can relate to this feeling and it does not happen every day or every year where you click immediately. It is like she she's my sister and she was so exuberant and so full of life, lived life not at 100%, but at 150%.

Claire: 1:03

In this episode, you'll also hear Hannah talking to us about the devastating way she found out that Lauren had died.

Hannah Rumsey: 1:08

I actually went to her Facebook page just to post happy birthday and I posted happy birthday and then I scrolled down just to look at the other birthday posts but I just saw dozens of posts that said rest in peace.

Chris: 1:24

And like so many before her, Hannah started to discover just how few resources really exist to help and offer support in this very common grief.

Hannah Rumsey: 1:32

I to this day cannot find friend loss grief groups, and I hosted friend loss grief groups a few months ago and every single person who joined said I was the first one that they were able to find and some of them had been searching for years. I'm like why would there not be resources for that specific type of grief? It doesn't compute for me, it doesn't make sense.

Claire: 1:58

In our conversation we talked with Hannah about the unique challenges of grieving a friend, why this loss can feel so invisible or minimised, and the surprising ways that healing can show up with time.

Hannah Rumsey: 2:08

There are so many times where I've looked back and thought like 10 years ago I would not have believed that I'm living the life I am now and feeling the way I am now. I wouldn't have believed it, and I feel like that is a big part of hope. Is that, like you, don't have to believe it for it to happen?

Chris: 2:27

This is a very open conversation about a grief that isn't talked about enough and the difficulties and complications that can arise when you're grieving the loss of someone from another family.

Claire: 2:36

And if you heard my last episode on how I make a podcast, you might remember the editing that I mentioned. Well, in this episode I've left in some bonus unedited audio for you to show you just how in sync Chris and I are with our questioning.

Chris: 2:48

So let's get going with loss 65 of 101. We begin our chat with Hannah introducing herself.

Hannah Rumsey: 2:55

My name is Hannah Rumsey. I live in Chicago and on an average week I've been working on a book, so I've been doing a lot of writing. I'm working on a memoir about my grief and I also work remotely, so I do some book editing work and I have a podcast, so I do podcasting and I also have been going to the gym more often. So I'm trying to be healthy and stay active, to be healthy and stay active.

Claire: 3:22

Thank you for coming to talk about your friend Lauren. Tell us a bit about her, so tell us who she was and what your friendship was like and when you first met and things like that.

Hannah Rumsey: 3:32

Yeah, so I met Lauren on the very first day of summer camp when I was 17. And I could not have met her more immediately Because I was literally in the registration line and we met in line, so absolutely immediately. And I just love saying how I met her because it's just kind of a unique story where, like, my mom was in line with me and she knows I'm shy and I was especially shy when I was 17 and going through loneliness, I was struggling socially in high school and she I feel like she had the goal. She was like okay, before I leave Hannah for the six weeks, I need to find her a friend. And so she literally just tapped on the shoulder of the girl standing right in front of us who ended up being Lauren, and I was. So I was like, oh my God, mom, stop. I was so embarrassed. But Lauren turned around and she was with her mom and our moms were like doing all the talking, like this is my daughter. Yeah, this is my daughter, laura.

Hannah Rumsey: 4:32

And then me and Lauren were being really quiet and shy. So we joked for years that we were forced, introduced to each other by my mom, which is true, mom, which is true and just like over the years would say over and over, like I'm so glad that your mom force introduced us, because I feel like a lot of people can relate to this feeling and it does not happen every day or every year where you click immediately, almost like whether or not you believe in past lives, like it's as if you knew each other in a past life, very much felt like a sisterly, I like I hate that we have to compare friendships to a familial relationship for to explain how close we were, but it is like she, she's my sister and she was actually two years younger than me, which when you're a teenager, is kind of significant. So she was 15 and I was 17. But and I was reflecting on this today actually I kind of looked up to her as if she were an older sister and part of that's my personality, like I'm in real life, I am a younger sister, I have an older sister.

Hannah Rumsey: 5:38

So I like finding a role model and following someone and she was so exuberant and so full of life and lived life not at 100% but at 150%, just lived life to the max, and that was something I immediately admired in her and I still get frustrated at myself if I feel like I'm not doing that, like that's something I want to. I want to harness that. But like she was so funny and like an example would be, like she would burst out dancing or singing and wouldn't care if people would judge her or stare and was just like definitely one of the funniest people I've met to this day amazing.

Claire: 6:19

That's so sweet. I love all those kind of the ways people connect and the way that opposites attract. You have that kind of awe, almost, of the people who are really out there. I am not one of those people, but I love seeing people that are, so I can understand the attraction.

Chris: 6:33

Particularly if you're shy as well. There must be an element. If you're shy, that's just like slightly terrified, but excited by that fear.

Claire: 6:39

That's like oh, my word, you live at 150. How do you do it?

Hannah Rumsey: 6:49

yes, so how long were you friends for? How old are you now and how old was lauren when she died? So now I'm 33. Uh, she died 10 years ago, almost exactly because her anniversary was july 19th the anniversary of her death and she died when she was 21, actually on her 21st birthday. So, just to kind of preface, after camp we stayed really close friends, but it was long distance because she lived in Pennsylvania and I lived in Virginia. But we would have what we called Skype marathon sessions. Remember Skype, yes, like back in the day, and just Skype for like four or five hours at a time. And so we were still really close, albeit in a different way.

Hannah Rumsey: 7:26

And the summer of 2015,. She was studying abroad in Spain and I knew she was studying abroad and I the last interaction I had with her actually was on her Facebook wall, which again is very dated, like back when people would message back and forth on your wall and I actually said like I'm thinking about interlocking and how I'm so glad my mom force introduced us. I can't wait till you get back to the States and for us to catch up. And she said, yes, oh, my God. She was also always like very exuberant and text, like you know, 25 exclamation points, like all caps. You know which is exactly how she is in person. She was like, yes, I'll be back in the States mid-August. We'll Skype as soon as I get back. And then so July 19th she was still in Spain and the next day I actually went to her Facebook page just to post happy birthday and I posted happy birthday and then I scrolled down just to look at the other birthday posts but I just saw dozens of posts that said rest in peace.

Claire: 8:29

What a way to find out. And that was the first you knew that anything had happened.

Hannah Rumsey: 8:33

That was the first I knew and, like, I think, anyone who's experienced any kind of trauma or like getting traumatic news, it takes a bit for it to actually sink in. So I was reading it and it was like it didn't compute. I was like that can't be true, there's no way that's true. It wouldn't feel real until I saw articles posted news articles that said something along the lines of Penn State senior falls off balcony and dies while studying abroad in Spain, and I read like seven or eight of those again not computing like I was just numb and it's like I describe it as it was like a dial, a volume dial, going from silent to screaming. Because it was silent, I was numb and then it was like a complete overwhelm and I remember I fell to the ground and just started screaming.

Claire: 9:32

Yeah, I guess that's the first thing that you think about. The difference with the death of a friend is that you're not necessarily in that loop of people who get told straight away so that you can get. You can find out the information in more traumatic ways. That's a good point.

Hannah Rumsey: 9:45

Yeah, I honestly don't know how I would have found out. Like I might not have found out for days or weeks, like I might have just been, like she's not responding to me, like what's going on?

Chris: 9:55

yeah, and finding out through a way that's really impersonal, like that is incredibly traumatic were you quite quick to believe that that happened, or did you go off sort of trying to validate or verify the news? What has happened?

Hannah Rumsey: 10:10

Yeah, it's. It's tricky because I feel like there's so many layers of belief and after reading, like you know, several articles, the first layer believed it, where I was like this is real. But then I definitely messaged her mother and confirmed with her. But then there are the other layers and I feel like this happens a lot with sudden or traumatic death, where in many ways you still don't fully believe it and like every night I would have a dream that I found her alive and it was like my brain was trying to make it so that she was actually alive, like, oh, it's a misunderstanding, Like you know, she'll show up or something. And it took probably over a year for those dreams to stop.

Claire: 10:55

Yeah, and you're not witnessing or seeing any of the sort of other people that are grieving. I guess If you're in the core of a family bereavement, you're seeing other people around you processing it, you're seeing other people upset, so there's that kind of level of starting to understand and process it. But when you're that bit removed, especially geographically if it's in a different country, you don't really see any of that necessarily. So that must make it even harder because you're just trying to do it on your own.

Hannah Rumsey: 11:17

Yes, and that has been such a huge part of the grieving process a lack of mirroring and I feel like that is an essential part to heal, like I feel like it really helps us to heal to like see our grief mirrored back and, and you know, with other people who also love them, for instance, but like yeah, you're totally right like it's like this bomb has gone off in your life and then everyone else is acting like nothing's happened. It makes it harder for you to process it, um, and it it's very isolating.

Claire: 11:52

It's very isolating yeah, that was one of the things I was going to ask. Actually, is it a lonely experience?

Hannah Rumsey: 11:57

it was a very, incredibly lonely experience I not entirely alone, but very lonely like I did have access to messaging her mother on Facebook. She was the most responsive, like she. It was helpful for her to talk to him too, but there were some mutual friends who talking about it wasn't, they weren't ready for it or they they couldn't face it, which I totally understand but, but I needed to talk about it. So, having people kind of have this wall come up or not respond or not be available and the main person that's available is her mom, which I'm so grateful for. But I needed more than one person.

Hannah Rumsey: 12:38

And what's wild is that I've been in touch with her boyfriend this whole time through texting. Just a couple times a year. We'll just check, like, how are you? You know, how are you feeling? And this year it took 10 years for me to reach out and say and I like my heart was thumping. I don't know why, but I was so nervous. I was like, are you okay talking on the phone, like just so we can share memories and everything? And and he was open to it and it was incredibly emotional because, you know, when we were talking I realized that was the first time I'd ever heard his voice and that it blew my mind because I saw him at the funeral. But you know, he didn't talk. He was so distraught, um, he didn't speak and I was like, oh my god, like I can't believe. It took me 10 years to like to reach out to him like what?

Hannah Rumsey: 13:24

just tell us how far apart you were from Lauren she was in Pennsylvania and I was in Virginia, so maybe like a five to seven hour drive, I was able to go to the funeral, which I'm glad of. I think that helps a lot with the grieving process. But, like I, I'm actually very frustrated with how funerals and this is just funerals in general that I've I've been to or seen even on TV like they're very quiet and, like your, your sadness has to be extremely contained. Um, it's almost like this unsaid rule. I don't know if I, I don't know where that came from, but like I felt like I had to just have like polite tears, but I felt like I was holding in a hurricane and I remember every muscle in my body was like clenched and I was like shaking from being clenched.

Claire: 14:14

So I just wish there was an experience where you get to like keem and scream like because that's really what I wanted to do yeah, you can picture some of the like sort of middle eastern type funerals where they do actually have like wailing and you think, yeah, that would be a probably a healthier thing to be around to just be able to let it out.

Claire: 14:31

But yeah, you're right, they don't often tend to. I think a lot of people think they have to have funerals done a certain way, whether traditional or culturally, so they don't often represent the person. So if you've got someone like Lauren, who you know did life 150%, if you've got a very quiet funeral, then that can be really difficult as well because you think, well, this doesn't feel very representative of her. So yeah, it can really vary on how people want to do it and obviously, again, as a friend, you probably don't have any input in that because it would be the family that would organize things and so that probably is quite hard for some people as well.

Hannah Rumsey: 15:02

Yeah, yeah, that's so well put and it's really hard, I feel it's. It's like it's also the feeling of like no funeral could have come close to and, and especially in the early, early grief, everything or at least this was the case for me, everything made me so angry and there couldn't have been a funeral that didn't make me angry, because I was like she she deserved more than this, like I don't know, and again, nothing against the people who put on the funeral. No matter what happened, I would have been angry because I had to. I just had to channel my anger somewhere.

Chris: 15:36

Yeah, just to add further complexity to it as well. From listening to your podcast and we'll put links in the show notes to your podcast to hear more about this, it wasn't straightforward in terms of the way she died, was it, and that probably led into proceedings with police and the body being repatriated to the States would have taken longer because of autopsies and investigations and having that almost looking for a perpetrator, which I know from what you've spoken about in your podcast in recent months. There's been a conclusion, but so many years on, so it's been a very complicated death as well.

Hannah Rumsey: 16:14

Yes, and that's one of the many layers I've been untangling in my memoir is just, yeah, like you said, the complexities of not knowing what happened exactly and maybe never knowing exactly what happened, because the man who gave the testimony is untrustworthy and has been known to harm many women. So that has been incredibly difficult and incredibly scary, honestly, and one of the ways I've slowly healed that is the fact that it's now becoming more out in the open and more public, and for years it was very secretive and quiet. And Lauren's mother, who passed away a few years after one, she was desperate to get it investigated and was trying so many things and she wanted this to be talked about. So I feel comfortable mentioning her.

Hannah Rumsey: 17:16

Obviously, I won't give any details that she wouldn't want me to share, but she really wanted to take this man to court and have it investigated. But she was also really nervous about being found out or, like I don't know, maybe the man finding out she was looking into it and I couldn't tell how much of that was her grief, like causing this anxiety, or how much of it was warranted, and so I got really freaked out and scared and because she it was sort of secreted at the time I felt like I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it and again, like I feel like any kind of traumatic death that you feel like you have to keep secret or that has a lot of questions and is unknown and is sinister in that like someone was very likely responsible, that adds so much complexity to the grief, because I truly don't think we're meant to hold these things secret. I think that that hurts our body and our soul and it hurt me like it was like poison for years you know you've got all this going on.

Claire: 18:19

Like you said, you've got a lot you got to keep inside and it's quite painful, and a lot of what you talk about on your podcast, as well as what we've covered before, is that this is this would come under the banner of being a disenfranchised grief, which I think adds a lot to that about having to maybe keep it in sometimes or feeling like you can't fully express what you're going through. So just explain a little bit for people who haven't come across that before, why this would kind of fall under that banner.

Hannah Rumsey: 18:41

Yeah. So disenfranchised grief, for anyone who might not know, is a type of grief that isn't represented as much in society and also does not have as many resources. So it wasn't until probably about a year ago. So, again, it took years. It was like nine years of grieving when I learned this term and realized, oh my gosh, friend loss grief is disenfranchised, and it explained so much Like sometimes a label can just is so comforting, like you're like, oh my God, I'm not crazy, it's a real thing.

Hannah Rumsey: 19:17

Some examples like like I to this day cannot find friend loss grief groups and I hosted friend loss grief groups a few months ago and every single person who joined said I was the first one that they were able to find and some of them had been searching for years. And and that is wild to me, I'm like like the number of people who lose friends is staggering because there are so many times where I'll bring up you know what I do and then they'll say, oh my gosh, I also lost a friend. Like that happens all the time. So, just like the fact that it's so common, I'm like why would there not be resources for that specific type of grief? It doesn't compute for me, it doesn't make sense, but, like the conclusion I've come to, one grief in general is not treated very well in society, so that's a big part of it.

Hannah Rumsey: 20:15

Two friendships are not treated the same as familial or romantic love, and once that clicked for me, I started seeing it everywhere and it blew my mind, because it's like this hierarchy that the world set up, where it's like you know, family and romance are at the top and then, like below it is, is friends. And I also want to be clear this is not in any way to discount family or romance. I I just don't want that to come across that way, but for so many people friendships are equally important to them and that's just not represented very much yeah, it's shocking, isn't it?

Claire: 20:55

because you think everyone who dies has got friends. So that's a whole load of grievers with every death and for a lot of us, you know, there's been moments when you're more close to your friends than you are your family that's the.

Chris: 21:05

That's the reality. I think the minority of people have family relationships that are stronger and preferable to friendships, because friendships, you know, obviously you can choose your friends, you can't choose your family. There's almost like phrases about that, isn't it? You can't choose your family and so friends you can.

Claire: 21:24

But yeah, it does feel like in the majority of cases, people have friendships that are stronger and more powerful than family relationships, sibling relationships, so it's strange that that is the case and, yeah, it is so hard to grieve a friend because, well, even yourself, even if you know that you were closer to them, maybe, than some of their family members, you'd still be telling yourself but I'm not family.

Claire: 21:47

So, you know, it's not right for me to get really sad at the funeral, because if I'm more upset than the person's mother or child or sister or brother or partner or whatever, then that doesn't look right because I'm just a friend. So, yeah, it's a really difficult one.

Chris: 22:02

How have you gone about setting up your friend loss groups? What does it look like to meet others in similar positions to yourself? Is it an online thing or an in-person thing?

Hannah Rumsey: 22:12

So the one I hosted where I hosted two groups they online and that was great and that I connected to actually a few people in England, um, and in Canada, just like all around. I also want to expand in person and get a like a community going in Chicago, but I I love that modern day so cool, you can talk to anyone in the world that's the one thing COVID did help us all with.

Claire: 22:35

We kind of got rid of those boundaries a bit more and we were able to do things a lot further because we were all so much more comfortable with video chat.

Claire: 22:41

Like you said. It kind of blows my mind in some ways that there wouldn't be support groups for that sort of loss when we have so many for other things, and I could really see there being a huge need for that. So I think, yeah, that's a great idea. Do people come with the same sort of things they're struggling with in this type of grief, or have you come across a whole range of different things that people find difficult?

Hannah Rumsey: 23:02

So it's interesting because it's both in that, like everyone's experience is so incredibly unique and individual and I have found patterns and I've actually had people say things and I'm like I literally said that to myself and it's like you read my diary, you know like I literally said that to myself and it's like you read my diary, you know like how, did you know how I felt? That's crazy and I want to think of an example. So so one example is a woman is grieving her college friend and she said she never felt like she fully owned the grief of her friend as much as she owns the grief of her dad. And that's a sign of disenfranchisement is if you feel like you don't have full ownership of it. And for her there was also a fear of stepping on the toes of the family. That's also something I've heard many times and that's tricky because, yes, obviously consider the family, consider people's feelings and everything. So it's a balance where you don't want to be so worried about it that you feel like you can't grieve at all or that you're closed off completely. So there's a lot of nuance and complexity.

Hannah Rumsey: 24:11

Those fears and those doubts like also like you start to question your friendship and think, gosh, were we actually as close as I thought? Or am I romanticizing it or glorifying it? Because you know they're dead and like I think about them every day. Now and then I've blown it up into being something more. And if you had kind of a term that is accepted by everyone in the world, like sister, father, brother, partner, I feel like in that way it's different. Where you're like you know, yes, I own this label, but here the label of friend is very nebulous and you're like and it can be anywhere from like a coworker you say hi to, to like like someone who's like a sister or a brother, and so then you're like, gosh, where on the spectrum am I Like? Maybe I'm exaggerating? And then you just start to doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, and that's something I've also seen as being pretty common.

Chris: 25:09

Those feelings of you know or questioning yourself, were they amplified in any way by other people, genuinely other people saying things that weren't helpful, making you feel like you know? Why are you grieving the loss of this friend so much? Were there occasions where other people did do a bit of damage in that way?

Hannah Rumsey: 25:27

Yes, I think so, and it's interesting because, like so many people are wonderful, but you remember the ones that were terrible. I'm sure more people said great things, but the few that I really stuck out to me were said incredibly hurtful things that I think did kind of help churn the soil of this doubt. Um, where, like uh actually, and it every time I say this I mean I can't believe she said this to me. But uh, I had a friend at the time who came into my bedroom. She was coming to hang out or something. I'm pretty sure Lauren had died like two or three weeks earlier.

Hannah Rumsey: 26:05

Like it was so, so, so, so, so, so recent, and I had photos of Lauren on my wall and kind of like making a shrine. And I hadn't purposely made a shrine and in that I wasn't like I will make a shrine, here's my shrine, I was just putting up photos. And then it looked like a shrine, not that it matters, but my friend looked at it judgmentally and looked at me and said why do you have a shrine? And I remember the first thing that came up for me was I didn't mean to make a shrine, it's an accidental shrine, you know, as if like a shrine is bad, like what? Like it just, and it just immediately made me feel so much shame, and so I feel like anything that someone says when you're grieving that makes you feel shame is one of the most harmful things you can say.

Claire: 26:51

I was just thinking this is a really good episode to talk about this on, because there's a lot of things that people could just put down about your friendship with Lauren, the fact that you wouldn't part by several hours. People say, well, maybe you didn't see her that often or that you were young. People would very easily think, well, you know you're young and it wasn't like a friendship of 40 years, so you know, there's so many things people could really diminish in this, which makes you feel worse and really does judge your grief.

Claire: 27:15

So it's a really important one to look at, to show that you know all of those things, they don't really matter. Grief is grief. You know, you could have known someone three weeks and still grieve heavily for them.

Claire: 27:25

So it's a really good one to talk about, so people can hear. You know what you've had to go through, what you felt, and then what you're doing afterwards. And it's really amazing because lots of obviously will lose friends eventually, but you've done this quite young in your life and then you've committed to help other people, help them get through losing their friends. So what is it in you do you think that made you think I'm not just going to sit and grieve this. I actually want to go out and help other people get through it.

Hannah Rumsey: 27:49

Yeah, I think that it started kind of organically because the first thing I wrote was a one woman play. I took a storytelling class where we write stories about our life and then we turn it into a one hour show and it was all about Lauren and my grief and really it was. I did it out of just pure necessity. Like it was like this All the grief, all the emotions were like bubbling and I just had to get it out. I got an email from someone who's now a friend but at the time was a stranger, and she was just like thank you so much. Like you put into words what I felt. For years I also lost a friend. Like you helped me understand my grief better and it like confirmed to me the power of sharing our stories. Like, yes, everyone's unique and there's so much universality and friend loss, grief is not talked about enough, and so, like, if sharing my story and sharing my feelings resonates with people and helps them to feel less alone, like I'm going to do that as much as I possibly can.

Chris: 28:52

To dig into that a bit further, because you've written online about the power in not just sharing that story with other people, but with your own family, with your own friends. That the the feeling of the burden having lifted when you shared all sort of with all of your loved ones, like in the same room. Why, why was that so significant?

Hannah Rumsey: 29:13

one of the many things I've learned about grief is that one of the biggest things you need is to be witnessed, to be fully witnessed. And in everyday life, being fully witnessed is really hard to come by. And like in my everyday life, okay, cool, my therapist is fully witnessing me. That's not enough and like, at the time I didn't have the, you know, I guess, courage or, I don't know, the ability to sit my family down, you know, in the living room and be like I just need to talk about this. It was really hard for me to initiate that, and so, like writing something on my own and then performing it and having them watch it I joke that it's like a really efficient way to unload on all your friends and family all at once because they have to go to your show.

Hannah Rumsey: 30:08

So that was like I was like whoa. I was like art is a conduit for it was just like everything was like clicking for me. I was like this is why people do art.

Chris: 30:20

Oh my gosh why people do art. Oh my gosh, and what impact do you? Do you know now, on reflection, that it had on those that were able to, I guess, just hear and see what you were thinking and feeling?

Hannah Rumsey: 30:32

yeah, I think I mean my, my friends and family. I feel like they finally understood the breadth and the depth of my feelings. I think they knew that it was really hard for me, but they didn't know specifics or the questions I was grappling with and, honestly, just them, me knowing that they now know almost that was enough and for them to acknowledge it and be like I see you, like I'm so sorry.

Claire: 31:00

You know, they didn't really have to say much after for it to like just do so much healing in one hour, honestly one of the things we often ask our guests is around the question why was that something that you ever struggled with, or was that something that you saw others struggle with, with this sort of death? Were people asking why? Or were you asking why did this happen? Or why did this happen to me?

Hannah Rumsey: 31:22

yeah, and I never really thought why did this happen to me? I thought, why did this happen to Lauren? And it was it made something that I knew intellectually into something much more real, which is that something bad can happen to anyone at any time. Like the best people can undergo the worst circumstances. And like, if you told me that when I was young would have been like yeah, like obviously I know that.

Hannah Rumsey: 31:47

But like when you experience it and you see like the best person, like just such an incredible person, go through this horrific tragedy and you're like they definitely did not in any way deserve it, or like why, like, why, what, how was that allowed to happen? Like, and you I definitely like started to question like a bit of my beliefs, like I it didn't change the fact that I do believe in God, but like it made me realize that there is a lot of random events. And I think and this is how I interpret it everyone has a different belief, but I think that random bad events can happen and then we can make good from it. But it's not that that bad thing happened so that the good can come from it, because that's the everything happens for a reason thing, which I have a lot of trouble where did that come from?

Chris: 32:36

who first said?

Claire: 32:37

no, everything happens for a reason were they joking? Is it an encourage? I don't know. Did it come out in an encouraging way to begin with, or was it not?

Chris: 32:44

like a hallmark card and then, for some reason, it seems to be one of the phrases that most people want to uh ban I'll just throw around like it just make things instantly better. You know, all things happen for a reason. It's like yeah that's yeah. I guess some people say oh, thank you, that helps, others like no, not so much how do you feel now when you, when you think about lauren as a friend?

Claire: 33:04

how do you feel now, 10 years on, and has that changed quite a lot over the years?

Hannah Rumsey: 33:08

yeah, something I've been I don't know if struggling with is the right word, but grappling with working on is continuing to cultivate my friendship with her and instead of being like well, the, the friendship's gone, like connecting with her in whatever way I can with her on the other side because that's also part of my belief system is that her spirit's still there, whatever the other side is.

Hannah Rumsey: 33:33

I don't know and that has been really illuminating in a lot of ways, because there are times when I feel really distant from her, where she feels more like an idea and I'm like, oh my god, and I get panicky, like I'm losing grips on her, kind of. And then there are other times where I'll get such a concrete sign that like I personally like cannot deny was her and I feel so incredibly close to her, and so it's like just, it's kind of like a really really, really, really really long distance relationship where we're speaking two different languages and every once in a while like we can connect, but like most of the time it's like hard to connect. If that makes sense, yeah, oh.

Claire: 34:21

I had had a question. It's just gone. Oh, that's right. Yeah, no, hang on. No you go. Oh rats I have to think.

Chris: 34:34

I think some of the good to have come out of it.

Claire: 34:36

to refer that was it.

Chris: 34:38

Oh, you put it in your words.

Claire: 34:42

No, you go. I was just going to say you talked about good coming out of it. You know I was going to ask what the good was.

Chris: 34:47

Well, no, you, because my questions are much more waffly than yours.

Claire: 34:52

I don't know. That's true, yeah, because you spoke about good coming out of a bad thing. So, yeah, what good have you seen or found that has come from losing Lauren?

Hannah Rumsey: 35:03

So definitely a sense of community, and that has been something that it took me years of isolation and loneliness for me to realize. Oh wait, I got to start it. I got like, I got to do something to make it happen, like it's not just like a like, just like boop join a community I I wish it was. And so that's been a big journey where I mean, I've made so many deep friendships through this work.

Chris: 35:33

I feel like I've connected with people on a deeper level than I I would have without knowing this kind of grief, and I feel like I have an empathy and understanding that you can only get from experience, and I think that empathy and understanding can be such a gift to other people, to your friendship with Lauren. You had friendship in person and then you had the long distance friendship bit, and then, when it comes to community, there's obviously in person and then there's online, and you know just as humans can be complicated. Communities can be complicated online and in person. So have you found there can be, I guess, strengths and weaknesses in online community, in the same way there can be strengths and weaknesses in in-person community.

Hannah Rumsey: 36:27

Oh, yeah, that's such a good question. So, with online community, what's missing and I know this is going to sound so obvious, but what's missing is that in-person connection which I feel like there's so much that can be said from the energy that you have. Like, I believe, we can feel each other's energies of being able to, you know, touch them, you know, with consent, you know, hug them. There was a friend who was going through a really hard time and I ended up rubbing her back, you know, as she was sobbing, and later she was like thank you so much for rubbing my back, like that meant the world and like those little things, like obviously I know I'm saying obvious, but like we can't do them online, and like there's so much I think that is lost in that communication. Like I have made online friendships that I really, really treasure and you know we'll text, but yeah, I do think there's a lot missing there. That would be really nice to get, but you know we haven't invented the technology for that yet Teleporting Coming soon.

Claire: 37:34

Or just a hand through the screen, oh no that awful website.

Chris: 37:38

Awful. You don't want that artificial arm intelligence.

Claire: 37:43

Yeah, maybe not yet no, there is.

Chris: 37:47

I mean, there's an element and I know, even as I think these thoughts, it does tap into an area of me about being judgmental. But when you see people on facebook, in groups for example, you can see responses and reactions that are very instant, can be very you know, they're not, they're not considered. Uh, sometimes in groups like certainly claire's got lots of experience in groups about menopause and surgical menopause and there can be, on the one hand, you've got somebody who's really well, it feels like, really beautifully and eloquently sharing their story in a very believable way, and then you can get somebody that you know utters a one or two line statement.

Chris: 38:26

It just feels like, really, is that? Yeah, that seems a bit far fetched, or? And it's very hard to accept that, beyond any online response and every online response, there is a human there that's going through. You know, maybe it is a grief, maybe it's just a different way of processing and they can't communicate it because not everyone's got the same, I guess, level of communication skills. But then you find that in person as well, don't you? Not even being in together?

Chris: 38:50

you still have individuals that you'll click with and others that you'll be like. I'm a bit dubious. I don't want to be, but you know it's we have to.

Claire: 38:56

We have to work on that online in the same way we do in person that's such a good point, yeah, amen no more to say what is something that people wouldn't really kind of expect or know or think about, about this type of grief for people who are just sort of thinking about friends losing friends. Is there something key about it that you think more people should know about?

Hannah Rumsey: 39:16

yeah, a couple things come to mind and for anyone out there who, well, I think everyone could know this, but maybe especially people who are grieving friends or a friend is to understand how disenfranchised grief can affect you. It was so helpful when I was able to understand that that was the disenfranchisement internalized and I was like that's not me talking, that's me having absorbed the messaging I'm getting explicitly and subliminally every single day, and then you're able to kind of process through it much easier. And so I feel like knowing that can be really helpful and having that label and that explanation. And as far as what other people could know, is to kind of do a thought experiment.

Hannah Rumsey: 40:17

And when you're supporting someone who's grieving a friend because it is disenfranchised and we often treat it differently think how would I support them if they had a family member die? And I think that just kind of that thought experiment can remind them like, oh, whoops, I wouldn't have done that, maybe I should send a card or, you know, reach out. And so, yeah, I feel like everyone kind of realizing that it's disenfranchised can help us to heal and also support others better. And I think a lot of people have the fear that bringing up your grief or bringing up the person will make you sad, but the truth is that we're already sad. It actually it can feel really good to have that acknowledged, and so that that's another way you can support someone who's grieving is like tell me about them, how did you meet, or I'd love to hear more about them. I haven't yet had a situation where people didn't like being asked about that.

Claire: 41:16

Yeah, that's a lovely idea because people do tend to think of the family and contacting the family. But how lovely is it if you're on the outskirts a little bit as a friend, to receive something, that somebody sees you and sees that you're also going through that grief, and that's really hard. I think that'd be really lovely If someone's going through it now, if they're fresh in losing a friend and they're struggling with it. Is there sort of one particular thing that you'd advise was a good starting point or that really helped you?

Hannah Rumsey: 41:40

Yeah, that's a great question. So I took a grief certification course from David Kessler recently and he's a grief expert and someone asked him like how do we support people? Do I send them lasagna? What do I do? And he was, like keep in mind the relationship that you have with them. So use that as context as to what to do.

Hannah Rumsey: 42:03

Like are you their neighbor and you talk to them once a year, that might look, the support might look a little different than if you're their closest friend or you know anything like that. Like if you are a really, really really close friend or family member or close in any way, it might make sense to show up unannounced. Again, depending on your relationship, you kind of have to use context clues. But if you're a neighbor, maybe don't show up unannounced if they're not responding to you. So that helped me a lot where it's like, ok, there's not like set rules, where it's like do one, two, three, four, five, but it's like think about your relationship. And yeah, also, something I've heard many times is like saying let me know if I can do anything is very overwhelming for the person grieving because then we got to think of something and we can't think straight Lasagna, lasagna.

Claire: 43:00

Poor lasagna. It's the official grief food, isn't it? It's really made its way in there. No way. I've noticed that too. I know it's not even from our country. It's like an Italian thing. Why has it come over here?

Chris: 43:11

It's because it's quite simple and it can do even many meals? I guess yeah, and it freezes well.

Claire: 43:17

I also saw and I think I don't know if it's on your website or if it's on your social media somewhere I saw it and I thought, ah, that's a good point. Was this a statement, sort of the funeral then? Like, go to the funeral. Was that coming from the idea of like, don't feel, like you can't?

Hannah Rumsey: 43:32

go because you're just a friend in inverted commas, yeah, and I I believe Rebecca Feingloss uh said that and yeah, I think it can mean a lot of things where, like, maybe you're a co-worker or or, yeah, like a friend, and you think I don't know if I'm allowed or I don't know if I should, but I know that showing up to the funeral can mean so much to the other people there that like, yeah, if you're having doubts, it's good to go.

Claire: 43:58

Yeah, I was, I do, verging at the local church. So I go and open up and sort everything out with the funerals and then lock up again, and so I attend a lot of funerals there. And I was at one little while back and there was only about 10 people that turned up from the family and there was a friend there that had just turned up and she sat at the back and when she came in I was chatting to her because she arrived early and she said I just happened to bump into the son of the lady that had died and he said there wasn't many people coming so I wasn't sure whether I should come. So I came, but it was a big deal that she came because it was such a small turnout. I just thought that would have meant a lot that there was just that one extra person sat there, that it meant something to her to attend that.

Claire: 44:33

So I think it's always important to go if you're not sure. Like you said, it's always a lovely thing for for the, the family to know and the others there. If there's sort of somebody feeling quite alone in this because, like you said, there aren't many support groups, um, where's a good place to go. Where's a good place to start to help them with their grief or just to feel like they're not alone?

Hannah Rumsey: 44:54

that's a great question, because and so I feel a little shy because I don't know of many others other than you can plug your stuff okay, because I feel weird being like come to me, um, but honestly though, I haven't found a single other yet friend, grief related social media account or website. So that is the reason why I'm saying feel free to come to me, um, it's not like I don't know, it feels I don't want to feel salesy, but also just like email me, like I've had people email me, just you know, giving me their story, and like I'll respond and I'll listen, and so, yeah, even if you just like want somebody to talk, to feel free to reach out to me. Um, you can go to my website or send me an email, or or my instagram we'll put all that in the show notes.

Chris: 45:45

Thank you and and what are your hopes for Friends, missing Friends? Do you have dreams of it becoming something more than it currently is, or are you just happy with the community, the online, the in-person Chicago, and you know, or conquer the world?

Hannah Rumsey: 46:12

and that I want the community to grow and I want enough people to know about it that I can be like a community that they can just kind of fall into, which was something I couldn't find Like. I had to work hard to create that feeling of community and, especially when you're grieving, you don't have the energy or the you know to do that. So I just want to be something they could easily, you know, fall into, and I, yeah, I would love to be something they could easily, you know, fall into, and I, yeah, I would love to expand in-person events, um, and have like a healthy community in Chicago, so that really my goal is that anyone who's missing or grieving a friend can feel instantly connected and maybe even find like another friend. Um, like I, it's like I'm full of ideas but it's like doing them. Yeah, it's hard, but I'm like, oh, I could match people and like, so there's like so many I have. Yeah, we'll see what it grows into, but I definitely want to keep growing it.

Chris: 47:00

That's the, that's the goal there's going to be that thing. There's going to be something in you. You tell the truth. There's going to be people that will say to you you know, know, I've lost my brother. I'm feeling really sad. Can I join? It's like no, it's a brother.

Hannah Rumsey: 47:13

It's not a friend Get out.

Chris: 47:15

There might be some cases where it's like, no, you don't qualify, this is for friends, missing friends. But then I guess you know you can be great friends with a sibling, can't you?

Hannah Rumsey: 47:35

as well as somebody else, a family member. It's not friend versus family, yeah, yeah, and that's something that I think has been tricky for all kinds of grief groups that focus on a niche is that sometimes you have to turn someone away Honestly just to say like this probably wouldn't be the best support for you. And here's some other great options, because someone who's grieving a sibling would probably get more from a sibling group, and I would. I would try to find some, some options for them, so I'm not just like pushing them out the door because I don't want it to feel like that you need some kind of connection between all the grief groups really, so you can sort of pass people around as they go through new things.

Claire: 48:06

I think, like even with childless stuff that we've been involved in, as soon as someone gets pregnant in a childless group, it's like okay, well, they don't really belong here, anymore, but then they might end up in another group. You know, let's say they went through baby loss, they might end up in a baby loss group. Then they lost a friend. You know there's so many different griefs we go through you almost need a directory of all the different ones so you can go and like slot yourself in, depending on what you're going through in life.

Claire: 48:28

But, um, yeah, it's difficult trying to, you know, categorize stuff, but, like you said it's a lovely way of putting it it's probably not the best support for you. There's other things that probably support better. So, yeah, that makes sense, and we talk a lot about hope on the on the podcast, and I think a lot of these groups bring people a lot of hope because it shows them there's life on the other side of loss. What kind of what does hope look like for you? What kind of role has that played in in your grief and just in life in general?

Hannah Rumsey: 48:54

yeah, I, I love that that you focus on hope in this podcast and it's it's something that, like you know, in the first couple years I would have I would have wanted to slap somebody if they don't get better one day. I'd be like you don't understand. And so, like I totally get that, like sometimes it's too early to be told like there's life on the other side, because you're just not ready to hear it yet, and I totally, totally get that. And there's times when, like you're like please, somebody, show me that, that we can get, I can get through this, that it's possible, and it's just, it's amazing how much healing can happen.

Hannah Rumsey: 49:34

Like I think we underestimate the amount that we can heal. I don't know why this popped into my head, but like this, uh, like I think over the oh I might have the years wrong, but I think over the course of seven years, all the cells in our body are different and so I think that, like, for some reason for me, that that's kind of healing where it's like you can regenerate, like your body is constantly regenerating, so your soul can constantly regenerate too. And there are so many times where I've looked back and thought, like 10 years ago I would not have believed that I'm living the life I am now and feeling the way I am now. I wouldn't have believed it and I feel like that is a big part of hope. Is that, like you don't have to believe it for it to happen?

Claire: 50:20

I think that's partly why we're so keen on people or trying to say that you know, listen to stories of loss before you go through loss, because then when you hit that point yourself, I'm not saying it's like, oh, I feel great because I've heard stories of loss and now I'm grieving, it's all good, but I do think in the back of your mind somewhere and I've had it myself I've seen people go through a loss, they've survived it, they've done really well with it, and then I've been through something similar myself and I've just and it's reminded me of them and I've thought you know what I can get through this, even if it's a tiny thought way off in the distance, and even if you don't want to hear it.

Claire: 50:50

I feel like the more you learn about loss, the more when you hit it, there is that sort of tiny bit of hope somewhere that says you know, this is really hard, but one day one day might be years I think I might be able to get through this. And but I understand why people also don't want to look at stories of loss when they're in a good place, because you know it's it's depressing for some people, but I do think it can be really helpful. It's going to happen. You know, we're not all going to avoid it. So I think it's yeah, it's important to look at.

Chris: 51:14

So you know, thank you so much for your time and for chatting and sharing your experience, certainly over the last decade, and you know we're big fans of what you're doing with friends, missing friends, and look forward to there being a support group setting up in gloucester, maybe, where we are, we could go along in person and help. I would love to finish things by asking the question that we ask all our guests, and this is about you know, identifying one thing that you think over the years you've grown, you've cared for, you've nurtured, and you can almost hand it on as like a bit of wisdom, a bit of uh guidance, a bit of advice for somebody else to help. I got it from the Amish friendship cake.

Chris: 51:52

There's more on the website in terms of where this question comes from. But the question is what's your, Herman?

Hannah Rumsey: 51:58

My Herman.

Hannah Rumsey: 51:59

I'm a little worried. This might sound cliche, but my Herman is love, and one of the many lessons I've learned through grieving is that love continues to expand and it's absolutely infinite. And you had a guest that said something similar and I was like, oh my gosh, I also feel that way where you can love someone with your whole heart and you can love someone else with your whole heart and you can love someone else with your whole heart and we're just going to keep meeting people over and over and over for the rest of our life and we can love all of them with our whole heart. And I think there were some years where I felt like I had to close off to keep my love for Lauren close, and I actually learned that the best way to honor my love for her was to open my heart and continue to make friends and love them with my whole heart and continue to reach out to others grieving friends and connect with them with my whole heart. So that's been a huge part of my grieving journey has been learning that.

Claire: 53:12

The guest Hannah mentioned earlier was from my recent let's Chat interview with David Kelly, where we asked the big question where does the love go when someone dies? If you love one person deeply and they die, how is it possible to love another person just as much? It's a fascinating area to explore and we loved that Hannah's Herman is love. I'm not sure we've had that before.

Chris: 53:32

To find out more about Hannah, you can visit her website, www. friendsmissingfriends. com or find her on Instagram and Facebook. Just search for Friends Missing Friends, as well as her podcast. What's that called? Oh yeah, Friends Missing Friends.

Claire: 53:44

Gotta love a consistent brand, and we were talking briefly in our conversation about where everything happened for a reason comes from. Well, I went and looked it up and my brief research suggests it goes back to Aristotle.

Chris: 53:55

Oh, he's to blame. Many think it's biblical, don't they? Clearly not?

Claire: 53:58

Well, in fairness, aristotle didn't mean it in the modern, slightly dismissive sense of well. This terrible thing must have happened for a reason. What he actually meant was that every event in life offers us the opportunity to grow or to learn, similar to the what doesn't kill us makes us stronger idea. Of course, that doesn't mean we will always grow and learn or come out stronger, only that we can if we choose to. But there are also phrases in the Bible that are a little similar, like Proverbs 16.4, where it says God made everything with a place and a purpose. But that's more about God having a purpose for everything he does a slightly different angle that we can't really comprehend as humans and goes way too deep, even for our podcast. I also found this wise quote everything happens for a reason, but sometimes that reason is that you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Chris: 54:41

Okay, for more about us and our quotes, visit www. thesilentwhy. com or follow @thesilentwhypod on social media.

Claire: 54:49

I think losing friends is a particular kind of grief that, as Hannah was saying, is seriously under talked about. Maybe you've lost a friend, or maybe you know someone else that has. Why not share this episode with them so they feel seen and their grief can be validated in some way? Now we're rapidly heading for our long break away, so this was actually our last loss episode for this year. There's only one episode left before we go away, and that'll be Chris and I talking about what we're planning, what the podcast might look like during that time and a general catch-up. So keep an eye out for that one.

Chris: 55:19

But this episode we're finishing with a poem about love by Dick Van Dyke, inscribed on a. Must be a member of the same family.

Claire: 55:27

Henry.

Chris: 55:28

Henry Van Dyke, inscribed on a sundial by the author in the early 1900s.

Claire: 55:34

"Time is too slow for those who wait, too swift, for those who fear. Too long for those who grieve. Too short for those who rejoice, but for those who love, time is not."

Chris: 55:50

Time is not what.

Claire: 55:53

Well, that last line is actually different in different versions. In some versions it says time is eternity, but either way, he means love outlasts time. Time doesn't exist for those who love. It isn't too short or too long, isn't bound by clocks or calendars. Love has a power of its own and in the end it's stronger than time itself.

Chris: 56:13

Ooh, thank you, Dick Van Dyke.