Loss 64/101: Loss of a wife: Richard Smith

#133. “Grief isn’t sad – because it reminds you to make the most of today.”  Curious about how Richard has reached this conclusion after losing his wife? Hit play and find out.

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to explore grief, asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #64 of 101: Loss of a wife

In this episode, we meet Richard Smith, whose wife Heather died of breast cancer in 2014, leaving him as a solo parent to their three children, aged 15, 14, and 11.

Recorded on the exact anniversary of Heather’s death, Richard opens up about the past 11 years of navigating his grief as a widower, the evolving nature of loss, and how he keeps Heather's presence alive in a way that continues to shape his life today.

In this conversation, we explored the emotional journey of losing a partner (while raising grieving children), how grief has changed for Richard over the last decade, the difference between sadness and grief, and why Richard sees grief as a meaningful part of life.

This episode is a profound reflection on love, loss, and resilience, offering comfort and perspective to any of us facing grief. 

More on Richard:

His blog about telling his children their mum is dying: https://www.sueryder.org/blog/richards-story-telling-our-children-their-mum-was-dying/

The Pensions Dashboard: https://www.dashboardideas.co.uk/about/ 

Richard's straight line walk across the UK in 2019: http://www.52inbritain.co.uk/ 

Chapters

• 0:00 Heather's Story and Anniversary
• 7:32 The Early Days After Loss
• 14:53 Parenting Through Grief
• 22:43 Keeping Heather Present
• 28:08 Grief as Something Positive
• 37:09 Reflections on a Decade of Grief
• 45:45 Finding Purpose and Hope
• 55:30 The Door to Hope Remains Open

Transcript

Richard Smith: 0:02

Hello, I'm Richard Smith and I'm here to talk about my lovely wife, heather, who lost her life to secondary breast cancer at the age of 47, exactly 11 years ago today.

Claire: 0:16

Welcome to The Silent Why a podcast on a mission to find 101 different types of loss and to hear from those who've experienced them? I'm Claire.

Chris: 0:23

I'm Chris and in this episode we're talking about a profound and deeply personal loss and what it means to lose a partner who is also the mother of three young children. Are you surprised that we're actually into the 60s in our 101 list before exploring the loss of a wife?

Claire: 0:37

I am, In fact, I'm quite proud of us for getting to loss 64 and still having some of the more 'obvious' in inverted commas losses to cover. Such is the breadth and depth of the losses that we've found so far, and in this episode we're speaking with Richard Smith about the death of his wife, Heather, who died from breast cancer in June 2014, when their children were just 15, 14 and 11 years old.

Chris: 0:58

And, as it happened, the day we recorded this conversation was the exact anniversary of Heather's death, which makes us all the more grateful to Richard for choosing to share his story with us on such a poignant day.

Claire: 1:09

Over the course of our conversation, Richard reflects on the 11 years since Heather's death, the challenges and benefits of solo parenting through grief, and how having children who are also grieving can impact your own healing journey.

Chris: 1:20

What stood out most to us in this chat is Richard's perspective on grief that, while he acknowledges grief brings sadness, he doesn't see grief itself as something sad, but something meaningful, a reminder to live more fully.

Richard Smith: 1:32

It's not easy. I cry all the time, I'm sad all the time, but grief isn't sad because it reminds you to make the most of today. I miss her all the time.

Claire: 1:42

Richard also shares the beautiful ways that he keeps Heather present in his life. Moments where her memory is so vivid it's almost like she's still there.

Richard Smith: 1:50

Sometimes now, if I put the right music on and I envisage this scene and I reach out over that table, I can almost touch Heather's hand and everything's okay. So she's very present.

Chris: 2:05

Reflecting on the last decade since his loss, richard now sees grief as something as natural as breathing Sure. It's inevitable, but he truly believes we can choose how we respond to it.

Richard Smith: 2:15

I don't think grief is a sad word. I don't think grieving is sad. I think it's necessary. Obviously we all lose something or someone, and maybe many things and many someones. Of course we we do because we all experience life, and that's what your podcast is all about. Right, but those losses remind us that we're not in control, and that lack of control over the future, I think, can worry us and can make us anxious. But I saw a quote from Khalil Gibran. He said our anxiety does not come from thinking about the future but from wanting to control it. And I think life's just a random, chaotic mess. And when we realise that and relax into that lack of control, then we can be much more positive about whatever happens to us or doesn't happen to us.

Claire: 2:55

So how did Richard get to the point of not seeing grief as a sad word? Let's find out. If you've listened before, you'll know exactly how we start our conversations, and we did the same thing in this episode. We asked Richard to introduce himself.

Richard Smith: 3:11

I'm Richard Smith. I'm in Wokingham in Berkshire. I'm here to talk about my lovely wife, Heather, who lost her life to secondary breast cancer exactly 11 years ago today.

Chris: 3:24

So on a day like today, richard, let's just dive straight into it. It's marked as an anniversary. Quite often in society, an anniversary will be preceded by the word happy. Do you use the word anniversary in a family context of saying it is the anniversary? Is there a greeting? Or yeah? How do you say, hmm, anniversary.

Richard Smith: 3:42

Well, our family calendar on the fridge door says the word death-iversary. Is that a word I don't know? I don't know whether the kids have created that, but sort of you know she's dead every day, so the anniversaries have never been a big point for us. We feel her absence all the time, so it's just another day, really Well thank you on the anniversary for giving us some time.

Chris: 4:06

What do you do as a family on the anniversary? Because I think today, whether it's an annual thing, do you have sort of like a ritual. We all go out for a bit of food or we get together. What's the plan so?

Richard Smith: 4:17

I think sort of how someone dies is really important, isn't it? And listening to some of your former guests, there's all sorts of different circumstances, aren't there? We were very lucky in that heather was at home and and she declined in the last sort of three weeks, but for those three weeks in june 2014, we didn't really go out the house. You know community, uh, nurses, health visiting and doctors and various other support. She had a hospital bed delivered downstairs, but it was all very in the house and so many family and friends were visiting and maybe we'll come on talk about this.

Richard Smith: 4:51

It's a very powerful, raw time, but anyway, because of that, on the morning she died early in the morning on the 25th of June. We thought, ah, we can actually go out, and the kids were teens at the time. Well, they were 15, 14, 11. So we went into Wokenham and all went for a Nando's the thing I hadn't anticipated, though walking in the door asking for a table of four, and that was the first time it hit me that we were now you know very, very real terms not a family of five, and four feels way more than 20%, less than five. So we've tried to, if we can. Obviously, they're in their twenties now, so it's a bit different. People are scattered, but if we can so, for example, after this recording we're going to nip into Wokenham and have a Nando's.

Claire: 5:35

Give us a little bit of a potted history then, of sort of when you met Heather, what happened, and then sort of what happened leading up to her death.

Richard Smith: 5:42

So Heather Wood she was before she was Heather Smith and I, like many, many other school and college leavers in the central Berkshire area in the 1980s and 1990s, worked in pensions administration at the Prudential or the Prue in their central Reading offices and many, many people found their life partners there. I think there were 7,000 people working for the Prue in in Reading at its at its peak. So we got together in 95, got married in 1996 and were blessed with with three children all around the turn of the millennium Catherine, born in 1998, flisty, born in 2000 and Adam, born in 2002. I feel I should just pause. I feel awkward talking to you two because this whole podcast is about you know, you two not having children, and yet I'm talking about my children. But then I did listen to your recent episode celebrating your 20th anniversary and we only had 18 years. So you know you beat us there.

Claire: 6:41

But it's not a competition. It's not a competition. No, no, please don't feel awkward about that.

Richard Smith: 6:46

we love to hear about other people's families, so, yeah, don't worry about that at all so the kids are all in their in their mid-20s now today, but shortly after adam's first birthday in 2004, uh, heather was diagnosed with breast cancer. We were both 36 at the time and the kids were five, four and one. She did really well. She had chemotherapy for just over 10 years.

Richard Smith: 7:05

So there are lots of family stories how the kids would go with her into the Royal Berkshire Hospital, the Berkshire Cancer Centre, there in Reading and play games while she was having chemotherapy all in their formative years and we're all so grateful that she was around for their formative primary school years. But then, in 2014, the cancer metastasized to several places in her skeleton and then she declined. I think this is quite typical Once it moves into your bones. She declined quite quickly in the final few months, dying shortly after her 47th birthday in June 2014. As I said, exactly 11 years ago today from the day we're recording this podcast, when she died, catherine, felicity and Adam were 15, 14 and 11, and I was 46.

Claire: 7:50

So tell us what it was like in those early days. You've just said about going into a restaurant and it hitting you that you weren't a family of five anymore. What does it feel like to be in that situation?

Richard Smith: 8:00

Well, there's quite a lot to say about it and I've reflected on a lot, and this, I think, is why it's quite interesting that this isn't a recent loss, because you do sort of think about it differently over the years and then you reflect on how you thought about it before as well. If you see what I mean. Part of the thing about, I think, the two of us is we were sort of quite interested in looking out and seeing others. So one thing is there were lots of different losses. Lots of people lost something. So Heather lost her life, but her mum lost her daughter and her brothers lost their sister and her kids lost their mum, and many friends lost someone who was really fun to be around, and the list goes on. And of course I lost my wife. So when someone dies, it's one loss for sure, but it's also many different losses all at the same time and it's quite a confusing, multifaceted thing. So I suppose I reflected less on what it meant for me and maybe sort of what does it mean for Heather, because I suppose those of us who are still here can talk about how we feel, but one person who can't is Heather, because she lost her life. So I've reflected on that quite a bit, maybe as a distraction from how I felt myself.

Richard Smith: 9:13

I don't know, and I've thought about what does losing your life mean? Because all of our lives are going to end, aren't they? That's certain, like death and taxes, it's certain. But what we don't know is when, it's like the ultimate unknown. But we do have this sort of expectation, don't we, of roughly how long it might be. I think we call it life expectancy and, because of my field, if you go onto the website of the Office of National Statistics, or ONS, they have a life expectancy calculator based on your current age and sex. So for me, for example, as a 57-year-old male, I have a 50% chance of living to 84, but I also have a 10% chance of living to 97 and a 3% chance of living to 100. So what should we reasonably expect? It's a really tough thing.

Richard Smith: 10:02

One thing I've started to do is think about life in days. I don't know whether it's to do with Heather going, I'm not sure. If you live to 82, then you'll have been on the planet for 30,000 days. There's a book called 4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman. It's about how, to you know, make the most of your life. So if a week is not seven days, obviously 4,000 weeks is 28,000 days, but I think life expectancy is a bit longer. It's about 30,000 on average, but of course you might get more. My dad lived to 94.

Richard Smith: 10:32

I just looked up the oldest person alive on the planet right now she's in the UK. She's Ethel Caterham. She lives in Surrey. She was born in 1909. So she's turning 116 this august and she's been alive today for 42 312 days. So obviously that's that's an exception at the end. But heather didn't obviously get anywhere near 30 000 that reasonable expectation. She was alive for 17 241, so a bit over half of that 30 000 expectation. So I've reflected a lot on what is a day. You know, what do any of us do with our days, and it's quite an interesting thing when you think about it in that way. And it comes onto something I'll probably mention which is about the now and making the most of now.

Chris: 11:20

Clearly, as you say, you've reflected a lot and that comes across in all your consideration for different aspects, different elements, and that will have included you as a husband as well as you as a dad, because you probably reflected a lot 10 years of Heather's life with cancer as part of your story, a part of your family story. Did that set you up for sort of hope that maybe this will go away or maybe it will always be the case, and then suddenly, as you said, it metastasized, got serious and then the end came. Yeah, what was it like living for so long and for the children to have that as part of the family story? That's a great question.

Richard Smith: 12:08

Chris In fact I was just saying to Catherine, the oldest one, just now, before preparing for this, heather's oncologist, dr Clive Charlton, at Barcher Cancer Centre. He said, several years into it he said oh, I think you two have come to think you're invincible, you know, because there's so many treatments and and she was young and she was healthy and she did respond well, so it was just part of family life and, as I said, you know, the kids went into the hospital when she was having having treatment, so it was no big deal. In fact, I think the reason I discovered your podcast you had a Sue Ryder assistant director of bereavement guests Bianianca newman, was it, I think and I listen, I heard that because I'm connected with with with sue rider because heather was in hospital for a bit. They asked me to write a blog about how we, how we spoke to the kids when we knew that it was terminal near the end in 2014 and as part of that blog, I said cancer it was like no big deal, it's like it would. It's always been there.

Richard Smith: 13:06

So Heather was occasionally in hospital. You know various complications and Adam, our youngest, I don't know at seven, eight, nine, he'd say oh, you go down here and up down that round there in the hospital. I say, adam, how do you know your way around? He said because I've been coming here all my life. I've been here since a one-year-old in the push chair. Do you see what I mean? So it was no big fear, really, it's just, oh, yeah, got to have some new chemo. And I think that maybe one thing I would reflect on differently, or try and think differently, is cherish the moment more, because you don't know what's going to happen. Of course, the oncologists, the clinicians, they do know that things can change, but I think we might have thought, yeah, heather can live with this indefinitely. But that obviously didn't prove to be the case. But we did have 10 years, those 10 years from when they were 5, 4 and 1 to 15, 14 and 11. And I say to everybody thank you for paying your taxes, because those cancer drugs aren't cheap. And they gave her the 10 years. And, to be honest, I inherited three fully formed young people, you know, because they've been around her, and she was a, you know, fantastic mum and, you know, spent those years, you know, being a, being a mum to them. So that was, that was great. Thinking about how they have been.

Richard Smith: 14:18

Chris, you know sort of the other part of the question. It's really hard, you know I said there's lots of different losses going on. I don't know what it's like to be an 11 year old losing your mum, you know, and I mean I was 50 when I lost my mum in her eighties. So it's it's, it's very hard to know that and I, you know, in a way I hope they find podcasts run by, you know, gen Z's like them. Do you know what I mean? Like, like you're, like I'm talking to you. You know who can perhaps, you know, relate more. I think it's partly just been my job to be there to feed them and clothe them and respond, but I I've been a little bit reticent about trying to push any particular solutions onto them.

Richard Smith: 14:57

One thing I put in that Sue Ryder blog as well is I think 10 years on they've all recognized more what they've lost and now, now they see their 20-something friends having adult relationships with their mums, you know, like going for a wine with their mum, sort of thing, and I think you realize more what's lost. And this is this thing about I think. I think others of your guests are saying the grief is always there. You know it's like it's going to continue being there and it'll continue to be there in different ways. But my thesis is it's a good thing and I want to come. I'll stop now, but I want to come on to. I think it's a good thing.

Chris: 15:31

In terms of the blog that you've mentioned there. Why did you feel like you had something to say and to share about telling the children that their mum was dying?

Richard Smith: 15:41

So I think Sue Ryder reached out to me I can't remember what the connection was that led to that they publish a lot of bereavement material or sort of grief related material on their website to sort of help people who are going through these circumstances so not just about hospice care but about grief and bereavement more generally. And they find or they've told me they find that stories real stories have much more impact than sort of a dry generic. You know, here's some best tips that's useful, but what someone actually did has more sort of impact. So I think one key thing is that it wasn't too raw. I mean partly I'm doing this now, 11 years after, because I'm not sure I'd have been able to talk like this one year after heather died do you know what I mean? Or even two or three, but I think you know a significant number of years can can help you just be a bit more relaxed and calm about it. So maybe one of the points was it was some years ago and I mentioned this point about how you know we they've, they've all developed. I think that was the hopeful point, in that we're all fine, we're all still here, despite it being probably the rawest day. Um, I think I mentioned in there. So this is going back.

Richard Smith: 16:58

Catherine went to see McBusted. What is that? A combination of Busted and McFly, I think at the O2 with friends and then stay there with friends.

Chris: 17:04

Don't pretend you don't know.

Richard Smith: 17:05

Come on and then, and then Felicity was staying with friends as well, so we told Adam on his own and we were watching Mamma Mia on the DVD on a laptop remember those uh, upstairs, because Heather was in bed, obviously, because 11 is quite young, isn't it? So we, we told, told him, and then the next morning the girls came back from their sleepovers and their constant, they were buzzing about everything. And then I I had to bring the mood crashing down to to say you know, well, you know, your mom's been having more treatments and that doesn't look like it's working this time and in fact it looks likely she's going to probably die and it could be quite soon. But the hopeful point from that is they've said to me years later Dad, we didn't really know what was going on, mummy is dying. What is that? That didn't really mean anything, because the word cancer had been around forever. Do you know what I mean? So I think it was more. The benefit of years of reflection can make things seem less raw, because that's a pretty raw thing.

Claire: 18:05

So you said you know, going back you might not be able to do this. Maybe year one, year two, year three, if we met you year one, what did that look like? What? What did you and the children look like, sort of for the first year of this?

Richard Smith: 18:18

well, I was just on autopilot feeding and clothing them and getting them to school. I think we were a very collaborative couple. I think a lot of couples are. You know, I think you two, you know you bring different things to your relationship and you, you do what you do as a, as a couple. And then if, if you are fortunate enough to have children, you know we were quite yin and yang. You know two parts coming together. So I think and maybe this is true, I mean, every loss is different.

Richard Smith: 18:43

It's not for to say for others, but I think one thing is, if you do lose your spouse or life partner, relatively young in life, what you lose is like your teammate or like your pal or the person you face the world with. Oh, you meet someone you know, you fancy them. The look of you doesn't make them physically sick, as Tom says, in Four Weddings and a Funeral, you a funeral, you know, and you think, oh, should we have some children? Okay, let's give it a go. It's a project, isn't it? It's a thing, and and you're very blessed to do that I almost got upset there. Might get upset, but it's a, it's doable because you're a team, right, and then I'm doing it for the listeners. I'm doing a sort of yin and yang sign with my hands. If you take one part away, you see everything that you're not do. You know what I mean?

Richard Smith: 19:29

Um, I think one thing again on your 20th anniversary episode, you talked about one of the things fabulous friendship. Yeah, that. I think that that is what's lost. But again, on the upside, as said before, I was gifted these three young people who were perfectly well formed. Had she died quite quickly in 2004, when they were five, four and one, this would have been an utterly different story and they would have been completely different people, because they would have been reared by me Are you with me? But they were already teens, or Ada was nearly a teen. So I think possibly I spent a bit too much energy focusing on myself and not on them.

Richard Smith: 20:06

I don't know, but, as I say, I don't know what I was, I don't know what I could do because I wasn't them. What makes you think that she said near the end, like promise me, you'll look, you look after them, and I, of course, yeah, of course. But the thing, the one sort of bit of burden or weight, I mean I'm very lucky, I'm fine, we're all healthy and, you know, haven't got money, worries and everything. But the one burden I do sort of feel is have I done right by her with with them? You know, and I don't know how you judge that, because there's only one person on the planet or she's not on the planet that I could chew this over with. She's not here, you know, because that that is the thing I mean.

Richard Smith: 20:46

It's so. This is what our relationship is. It's someone to choose something over with, isn't it? And you know you can talk with family and friends, but they're not Catherine and Felicity and Adam's mum. You know, they're not my wife and that's that's. That's the thing. So it's. It's a bit of a gap that I can't chew over with anybody how it's gone. That would be nice.

Claire: 21:02

I sometimes dream that she's allowed to come back for a day and I can chew this over and she could say, yeah, it's all right do you think you'd have been able to to verbalize back then if someone had said to you, tell me how you're feeling and you could sort of honestly say, let's say you could say it? Would you have been able to verbalize what you were going through or was it just like you were just surviving?

Richard Smith: 21:21

yes, I think. I think probably more that, claire. All of what you're hearing now is 10 years on and my reflection on it. Perhaps I should have kept. I wouldn't have kept a journal at the time, it just would have been not nice and I think I was just sort of surviving.

Richard Smith: 21:34

I was really lucky. I say to everybody just get life assurance, because there was a lump of money. So I didn't have to go to crazy work. This is the thing. If I'd had to go and continue doing work, so that I had a pause in work where I learned to be a single dad and then we did some work on the house and stuff. In fact that was the mandate. Heather, we'd always had a plan to do stuff with the house and she wrote a list that I found of do something with the French doors and etc. Etc. And that was my mandate. Because there was some money, I could actually do it. Do you know what I mean? So I was so lucky that I could do that and then I learned a little bit about what being a dad was.

Richard Smith: 22:09

I think I don't know I'm generalizing, but I think a lot of dads, I would say, don't really know what is going on in their households. You know, because generally I'm afraid it is still like this the mum is sort of running it all. The great like this, the mum is sort of running it all. The great opportunity I've had is the, the exposure to what being a mum is and being in charge of all of that. So that's been fun and I've I've inherited a lot of heather's mum friends or her network of other other mums at school, uh, and I've I'm just like hugely in awe of, like mums who are running households because, obviously generalizing, but you know, typically, particularly when kids are small, dads are going off to work and aren't seeing the chaos which is family life, which is family life and keeping on the topic of gender, what has been your experience generally of of being a man, through this, with other male friends, all the manly sort of emotions, feelings, some, some men don't talk about feelings, some are more open to it now but what's?

Chris: 23:08

yeah, what's been your experience of being a man so?

Richard Smith: 23:12

I've just heard your very latest let's chat, uh episode clear with david kelly, who you know a hospice worker, who, who has, you know, personal experience of a loss but works in that space as well, and he was saying something that really resonated with me is that generally in groups that talk about this stuff, generally they're majority female and I think he talked about this model between, uh, intuitive or instrumental grief and, again, in general terms, girls are down the one end of of well, how, how do I feel about this? Can I talk with other people? Generally, another group of females, men, are more well, what can I do? How can I fix this? What can I do to make this better? And I think that's been my experience is that support or sort of awareness or the ability to articulate feelings, you know, and just relax into that has generally been more prevalent amongst females.

Richard Smith: 24:06

Also, two other famous widowers robert peston on the tv news id was bbc's itv news and julian barnes, the author. They did a couple of radio 4 programs. He said on that to robert, just the two of them chatting his male friends had been universally unhelpful, you know, and in fact they sort of even denied his late wife's existence, you know, whereas female friends would, of course, talk about it. Do you know what I mean? But I think that's, that's okay, that's just how it is. Sue rider said to me. They said, richard, you're a bit unusual, you're a man who talks about his feelings. But maybe it's a spectrum, maybe we are all on this spectrum, you know, and some girls are more down one end and some boys are more down the other. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's not binary, I don't think.

Chris: 24:50

But personally I am more of a talker, as you can already tell, and I find that chewing stuff over, either in my own head or with with other folk, like you is, is really helpful so have you come to form responses to questions that sort of come sideways in a sense, whether it's at gatherings, social functions, people you've not met before and they say things like oh, are you married or is your wife here? All the sort of assumptions. Are you quite content with where you are now when that happens, or are you still learning how to respond? Or are you still?

Richard Smith: 25:22

learning how to respond. That's another great question. So it's almost meet someone. You shake their hand Hello, I'm Richard, I'm a widower. You know it's because if you don't get it out soon and then you chat quite normally, either of an evening or even over days and days, that you meet someone again, it can become awkward. That you didn't mention it, and my kids have found this as well. Now they're in work situations. You have that. You didn't mention it and my kids have found this as well. Now they're in work situations you have to take a stance about. Well, am I gonna? You don't really want to share that when you first meet someone, but it's quite helpful too.

Richard Smith: 25:52

But I find restoring, bringing some humor and comedy to it, talking about the dead wife, that that's for us, that's easy. Sometimes that's a bit unsettling, for others it's, it's tricky, it's a real, real paradox. But the other side for me and this is coming onto the positive thing, you see, I don't necessarily see it completely as a loss, because she's she's still very present and the reason I can talk about this today now, in 11 years, is because she's very present. I can almost reach out to her. So I was thinking of of what scenario I might sort of try and depict that with.

Richard Smith: 26:20

So a favorite thing of ours would be like maybe a long train journey, maybe like on the North Line I don't know if you know it from Inverness up to Thurso, right at the top of Scotland, where Heather was born, actually, and maybe it's on a weekend and we've got a coffee and the Saturday papers and we're at a table seat and Heather's backwards and I'm forwards it's always that way around and then we've got a walkman because it's the 90s, and we've got a splitter. Do you know that you can plug, plug in tracks together? Yeah, oh, yes. Sometimes now, if I put the right music on and I envisage this scene and I reach out over that train table, I can almost and everything's okay. So she's very present. So it's quite an interesting thing to talk about this with folk to say, well, yeah, she died, but actually that's not the end of the world. Do you see what I mean? It's a paradox and, as we've already said, some folk are maybe less comfortable receiving those sorts of messages than others.

Claire: 27:25

It's hard so where's that come from? Has that been a conscious thing that you've decided to do to keep her present, or have you found that she's just naturally become that? Or did you see someone else talking about doing that? How is? Because that's not something I've heard a lot of people talk about before so you did an excellent um blog three years ago, claire.

Richard Smith: 27:43

I loved it. Disappointed with life, all with life, all about expectation. And you said in that I think about we have a responsibility to help but offer hope and don't hold people in their grief and don't keep people in their grief. But I think my view is slightly different on that. My view isn't that hope follows along after grief. It's actually there alongside grief, and forever. So for me, I don't think this is possible. I'd even like to change the dictionary. I don't think grief is a sad word. I don't think grieving is sad. I think it's necessary.

Richard Smith: 28:18

Obviously we all lose something or someone and maybe many things and many, many someones. Of course we do, because we all experience life, and that's what your podcast is all about. Right, but those losses remind us that we're not in control, and that lack of control over the future, I think, can worry us and can make us anxious. But I saw a quote from the Lebanese-American writer and poet, khalil Gibran. He said our anxiety does not come from thinking about the future but from wanting to control it. And I think life's just a random, chaotic mess. And when we realize that and relax into that lack of control, then we can be much more positive about whatever happens to us or doesn't happen to us.

Claire: 29:01

Yeah, that's a great way of seeing it. Do you think? Well, can you imagine in any way how your grief would have been different if you had been on your own and you didn't have the children with you? Would you think you'd come out with the same sort of thoughts about it, or would that have looked quite different?

Richard Smith: 29:15

um, that's a really good question, I think. No, I think I'm so positive about heather now because she's in the kids. I don't know nature and nurture it's hard to say, isn't it? But I see a lot of her in them and that's another reason why she's really, really present, because she's in the house all the time. I do worry a little bit, though I try not to use the words move on, you know, going through as if it's a place you've got to get to, I do a little bit that. Am I not living my proper life now? But you know, I think I think you may have heard previous guests say oh, you know, he was a love of my life, she was a love of my life. I think Heather was a pretty special person. So the 18 years that we were married, that maybe that's going to be enough for me. And you, you know there's upsides, you know we never argue, you know she never like shouts at me, so, um, it's okay, but I think without the kids maybe it would have been quite different.

Claire: 30:12

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because I think when, when someone dies, especially when it's a mother and it's young, it's almost like the grief is seen as so much worse, which it is, because obviously there is more loss.

Claire: 30:23

Like you said, a young someone has lost their mother young, which is something no one ever wants to go through. But in talking to all our guests, those that have had children seem to have had things about looking after children or about having children that's actually helped them in their grief, which is not what you'd expect necessarily, and those without that, I think, have struggled to get out of it a little bit. More massive generalization generalisation that won't be true for everyone, but it does seem to be a little bit of a theme. So it interests me how much children can help someone in their grief. I'm not saying it's necessarily how the children cope with their grief, but as the individual adult that it seems to have this driving force that you have to get on with life, you have to do things for the children a little bit. But to be able to see the person you've lost in and through the children is another lovely way of keeping them alive, I guess.

Richard Smith: 31:08

And Claire, I think it's as well as that, if you're a thoughtful person, that it's a continual opportunity to reflect. You know I said about you know, you see what you're not, because you were a collaborative, coherent couple together. But then you see everything you're not, um, you know, if I just say sort of, you know what was heather, you know, after she died I found her school reports which I'd never seen when she was alive, and in the last one, at the end of her sixth form, which was exactly 40 years ago this summer, so summer 1985 the headmaster I've written it down here the headmaster's comment was her charm of manner and gaiety are outstanding and it is these three qualities that will serve her well in the future. And and that was spot on, and at her funeral I talked about three com words which sort of tried to depict how I felt she was and how she lived her life, and they were commitment, compassion and comedy. You know.

Richard Smith: 32:00

So she did something, she did it wholeheartedly and she did it with love and always, always with a smile and a laugh. God, I really, really miss her laugh. But I get to think could I be those things? Or maybe I'm not those things, and that's okay, because you know we were a good couple. Because I didn't have those same things, you know I was the serious one. So I think there's lots of opportunity to reflect and enjoy and remember the person more, because you're doing what they were doing, but in a different way, because you're you and they were them there's a phrase that keeps coming to mind when you're talking, and it's a phrase that some people have a real issue with, I think.

Claire: 32:42

But I think in some ways it must be true. But I keep thinking about the fact that time heals and some people really don't like that kind of concept. But looking at you, I feel like it could be. I don't know, it could be said of you, but I'm interested to know does it does time, has time healed? Or is this something that you've specifically kind of cultivated as you've gone forward?

Richard Smith: 33:03

well, we had. We had some email exchange, didn't we, claire, before this, about keeping the grief alive, because I heard one of your previous guests say that and I thought, yes, that for me crystallizes it. It was Caroline Fowler, I think, who, um, whose father had an aortic dissection, but she does work now in that space, working with a clinician, I think, and she said she recognises that's keeping the grief alive. But for me, as I think I've said, I think that is actually necessary because it continually reminds us of this lack of control.

Richard Smith: 33:40

Life is uncertain, so it's a paradox, but I think this concept of grief is powerful, it's positive, and I think I'll probably only stop grieving when I stop breathing. And that's exactly as it should be. And why do I say that? Because when you truly get and you're continually reminded that we're not in control of the future, it makes two things crystal clear. One for that future we can and should be hopeful, because good things can happen, but without expectation that they will, because there's no certainty of the future. But two for today we should really cherish today and make the most of the only thing which is certain, which is right now. I've even heard it said that tomorrow doesn't exist, because when we get there it'll just be another now.

Richard Smith: 34:27

So I'm quite happy to continue thinking about Heather and imagine the train on the Scottish Highlands or whatever, hundreds of different circumstances, because for me it's a continual reminder that we don't know what's around the corner and we have to make we almost sort of have to make the most of now because of that, and for me I think it's hard because it's full of paradoxes. So there's this confusion or we get messed up in our heads between the past and the present and the future, because our past experiences and our unrealised expectations, which were probably unrealistic anyway, they may not have been realised and of course that shapes our thoughts about the future. But the only agency we have to do anything about any of it is right now. It's impossible to act at any other time apart from right now. But it's easy to forget that, and for me the continual reminder of this truth is through remembering Heather and remembering that she only had 17,241 days.

Chris: 35:26

In your previous answer, when you were talking about the three comms. Remind me, was it commitment, compassion and comedy?

Richard Smith: 35:33

Commitment, compassion and comedy, yeah.

Chris: 35:35

And then you said you know, that's not me. That made me think oh, I want to ask you what it's been like, sort of finding the right balance of having to pick up new duties, maybe as the dad and for the family, that that heather's not around to do. So you're now doing things that heather isn't here to do, but also having to remain your own character person. You can't be the committed, compassionate, comedic one. Was it hard to remember that and not try and be the character of Heather for the kids, but to actually just to remain yourself, even though you were doing more, maybe jobs, duties that you shared before? Does that make sense?

Richard Smith: 36:18

Yes, it does entirely, Chris. So, yeah, it's really tough. You're not that person and you can't be, and it's really upsetting that you haven't got and and you can't be. Um, and it's really upsetting that you haven't got all the attributes that they had. But again, the upside of that is you can enjoy and relish that they did have those attributes, but I've got a sort of sense that leopards don't change their spots.

Richard Smith: 36:37

I don't think you can really become something that you're, you're not. It's not really sort of authentic, and I think there's lots of opportunity for humour here. You know, and we can joke and we have a family sort of little joke in the family that you know the wrong parent died, obviously, you know, because she, but it's you know, and you have to have a lot of humour about it because she was the fun one. But yeah, you can't be something you're not, but you can move towards it or become aware of it as something you're not, but you can move towards it or become aware of it. As I say, a lot of dads haven't had this exposure to what all of that is and I think that's been a great opportunity for me to learn more about and I think I'm probably a more empathetic and compassionate person, because I've been exposed to that.

Claire: 37:15

We ask all our guests this because it's different for everybody. But have you ever battled with that question? Why have you asked yourself, why have I had to go through this? Why has my children's mother died? Those sorts of questions.

Richard Smith: 37:27

Well, no, not really, because I think life is just a random chaotic mess. So, because we're not in control, therefore cherish the moment. So it's almost like why not? Something's going to happen to all of us, isn't it? It's happened to you, it's happened to all of your guests, Every single person living is going to experience life. So it's about relaxing into that lack of control which maybe I'm just thinking now. Maybe that's not a very typically masculine thing, you know, because as a man, maybe you want to intervene. You know, at work, maybe as a manager, you're paid to take some action, to do something, Whereas actually I think what I'm sort of maybe reflecting back is it's okay, it's just stuff's going to happen, and be chilled about that.

Claire: 38:11

That's a difficult thing to learn. I know that this sort of loss is one that I hear people sort of speculating about, most sort of fearing, especially young couples who have got children. The horror of going through losing their partner in life is something that sort of you know, you hear about it happening to other people and it just sort of sits there. What if it happens to me? So when you're in that place it sounds like you're sort of saying if you can somehow just embrace the fact that we're out of control and that this chaotic stuff happens. But I guess some people are like I don't want to relax into that. I don't want my partner to die.

Richard Smith: 38:49

What do you say to people that are maybe struggling with that idea? Well, one thing is you know, I think one thing I have learned is every single individual situation is different, so it's probably not for me to sort of opine on other people's circumstances, but I think, as I said, relaxing into this lack of control, I think you said in that blog I mentioned, disappointed With Life you're trying to learn to be a person that can accept your situation and enjoy it for what it is, but you haven't quite managed that yet. Yeah, so I'll play that back to you. That's three years ago. How's that work in progress going?

Claire: 39:16

I'm still not there. Quite, yeah, exactly.

Richard Smith: 39:19

Yeah.

Claire: 39:19

I think it's, but, like you said, it's a good thing to have and to aim for. So maybe that's what people need to consider aiming for it. I really want to relax into this. I want to, and I have really enjoyed listening to guests talk about similar things to what you say, like grief not being a bad thing. Like grief is part of life and I think we have it as we go through life and maybe, if we're unlucky, grief hits us and it's like no, no, no. Like grief is there, it's. You don't know how or when or what it will look like, but it will be there. But it's also a natural thing. It's a natural thing to go through. We don't really see it like that over here. I think we hide it away a lot, so I think a lot of people do really fear it. But then to live in fear of something that might never happen damages the today, doesn't it? So I can understand that embracing the chaos would help that.

Richard Smith: 40:00

I'm quite an advocate of talking about death. That's the only thing I said, that's certain, apart from paying taxes, and you know that doesn't always go down well. It seems like quite morbid and morose, whatever. Maybe that matches my personality, but I because, when you truly get it, the only response is to make the most of now, when you realize that it's definitely the end, it's certain and it's relatively close, it's less than 30,000 days away, unless you're. What was her name? Ethel Caterham in Surrey, who's 116.

Richard Smith: 40:28

So when you truly get that, when you truly understand but I think you're right, claire, in our Western societies we've sort of tried to diminish our mortality, but I think it's very, very powerful and it really relates to my work. So this whole thinking about past and present and future and the uncertainty, exactly that really comes to my work. Maybe I'll say a little bit about that and maybe that'll give another perspective on it. So you know I said, heather, I worked at the Prue in Reading in in pensions. So so pensions is it's about like having money later in life, maybe when you're not, you're not working right. That is classic, if not the classic conundrum of this past, present and future thinking, you know, and often worry. So if I or am I employed, if I'm working, we put some money aside today, it'll be there in the future. That's good. But that means I haven't got the money to spend today. And will I live that long anyway? Heather didn't. And if I do survive, how much do I need? How much should I forego today in my spending so that I've got enough when I'm 70, 80, 90? These are intractable questions and they can really really mess with your head and consequently, the vast majority of people are totally in the dark in this, not just in this country but in the developed world, and they're just blindly hoping for the best. But despite those uncertainties, you do need some sort of plan.

Richard Smith: 41:46

So with pensions, most people don't know what they've got, let alone what they're going to need in the future. So what the government's been doing it's been working with my industry really hard for several years to help people with this problem and the idea which I think is incredible is the ability to see all your different pensions from your different jobs and your state pension together really simply on your phone, and it's called a pensions dashboard. And everybody I mentioned this idea to now if they're in their 40s or 50s but young people too. They say I need that, and many other countries have already developed this service. It's going to be a seriously cool sort of societal level development and, spookily, the first media report on this topic was in the Financial Times on the day of Heather's funeral in June 2014. I said it's been coming a long time. It's because it's such a vast project.

Richard Smith: 42:34

So from that day until now, ever since, I've been doing a blog all about it on the development of pensions dashboards, and I've been privileged to be involved in various different capacities, both paid and voluntary, in the initiative, and my motivation to help in this and help contribute, try and solve this big societal issue for millions of working age people is what's happened in my life. I'm really, really sad that Heather's not here. It's painful, but, like so many of your guests, I think you were saying, Claire, you want to do something with that pain, something with purpose that you feel is important, which, for me, I just happen to have found this thing that's been around since she's died, and there's a little play on words that I like about keeping this pain alive even though it's painful. It's no surprise to me that the word passion has got pain running right through it.

Claire: 43:24

I think this is something that some people will be thinking and it's one of those things that someone might say to you at some point. They might not, and it's not a very nice thing to say. I feel like I want to ask it. So, because you've got this amazing way of looking at grief and you've reflected back and you've really thought about it and you've seen what you were missing when Heather died and you've raised these amazing children and you've raised these amazing children and you know you've done all this stuff, and because it's so many sort of years later and you're looking back, there's a temptation to think that this was easy for you and that this you just found grieving easy in some way, or that you know, somehow you had a strength about you that could do it easier than the average person, because you've just got this amazing way of sort of looking at it. Do you need to dispel that myth or are you somebody who just found it like an easy process?

Richard Smith: 44:05

It's not easy. I cry all the time, I'm sad all the time. But grief isn't sad because it reminds you to make the most of today. But I miss her all the time.

Claire: 44:15

Yeah, I think that's important for people to know, because I know that from having you know, had conversations with you and things. But sometimes it's easy to think that, oh, some people just get through this better than others. It's like, no, that's not how it works, it's not easy for anybody.

Richard Smith: 44:25

I think that maybe this is his pain and passion point. I think they've got the same sort of origins. Maybe you can feel strongly about something because of the situation. Now, I thought you might I don't know where the question was going Club, I thought you might go on to say, as a benefit, you and I think some of your guests have almost said they're glad it's happened would they go back to the person hadn't died, or they hadn't lost their arm or whatever their loss was, you know, and I think some of them have almost taken that step and said no, I wouldn't.

Richard Smith: 45:05

I'm, I'm a better person because this has happened yeah and that that's quite a tricky step because absolutely I'd love Heather to be seeing her grown 20 something children, you know, and that's the thing that hurts that she is not seeing her three growing up into caring and competent young adults and that is the thing that that hurts. She's not seeing the products of her labors if, if you like, she really adored those kids. So I taking that step to say I'm glad it's happened, is it's a step too far, but I think it's made me better. I think it has.

Chris: 45:38

That's quite a paradox to say that, to even say that isn't it yeah well, along those lines of going back, a neighbor in wokingham has developed a time machine. Oh, richard, come and have a go in my time machine. So three questions that follow. Do you accept the invite? If you do, what point do you go back to? And then the third part for what reason?

Richard Smith: 45:59

wow, so a lot. What's in my head right now? Do you remember I said we got together in 95? It's 30 years ago now. So we were like 27, 28. And Catherine, my oldest, now, is 20. Well, she's turning 27 soon. She's met someone and they're getting together. So a lot in my head has been how special that time is. You know, when you meet someone and you get to know them better. And I think, when you know, you know when you meet someone and you get to know them better and and, uh, I think when you know you know, do you know what I mean? Well, that was a situation for us anyway. So, yes, basically, question one I'm definitely going back somewhere. Let me explore. Let me explore where.

Richard Smith: 46:32

So when there's something really special about getting together, but also that's all pre-children and all the family life and the and the chaotic life, so so I don't know. There was also quite a lot of humour in her treatments as well. So it's quite hard to say, because as soon as we had kids she had cancer. Do you know? Adam was one. Do you know what I mean? So it's sort of there haven't been that many phases in our life there's been sort of getting together. That was quite rapid. In fact. The kids teased me saying oh, you move, you're a fast mover. You know, we got married. We got married within sort of 18 months of getting together, sort of thing. Then we bought a house and had children pretty much straight away. Then she had cancer straight away, not exactly, but you know. So in my head I suppose those are the phases. There's that wonderful time in the 90s of, you know, being newly in love and thinking, oh, this could go somewhere, and then, and then the fun of fun of having children and just completely making it up as you go along, not having a clue, but, as I said, it's okay because you're a team. And then the fun, or the dark humour of all the cancer.

Richard Smith: 47:39

We had a little joke. A little thing would be regular three-monthly appointments to go and have checkups and the waiting room is filled with septuagenarians, octogenarians, nonagenarians and then, like heather, who's in her 30s or 40s, and we always found out that if there's bad news, if the latest ct scan is not good news, they they like to take their time with you. So they put you in at the end of the the appointments list. So we joke, we'd sort of say, oh, we're still here. It was you know. They asked you to come at nine but we're still here at 12 o'clock and we're going to be asked in late. So we, like we, try and make up how bad the news would be. But it's little funny. Little stories like that are funny. Can I? I don't know. Can I have all three? Can I have you know newly together? Then you know brand new kids and then you know the privilege of seeing someone cope with and continue to be a fabulous mum with cancer. All three of those were inspiring times.

Claire: 48:35

Why not? Once you're in the machine, you can do what? You want? I reckon yeah.

Chris: 48:39

The neighbours in a different time, waiting for it back.

Claire: 48:41

Is there anything that you would have liked to have told yourself when you were early in those days of grief? Is there anything about grief you wish you'd known a little bit earlier on?

Richard Smith: 48:51

yeah, that's a. That's a tough one because you're sort of finding your feet. Um, I think grief doesn't start at the moment of a loss, because I think you know if people have a terminal diagnosis, you sort of you're into, you're into something there and then whether you really believe it or understand it in your head is a thing as well. I think all this cherishing the moment stuff I've been blathering on about now I think I probably wasn't very much like that when Heather was in her final years and I wish I'd perhaps been a bit more like that.

Richard Smith: 49:22

Let me just tell a story as well about were so lucky she went into a Sue Ryder hospice for a couple of weeks to be stabilized because she had hypercalcemia, where you have too much calcium in the blood and you get very, very confused. That was funny. She's like come out with all these very, very weird things, like she was looking at a picture of the wall and she said, oh, there's all the monarchs, there's Henry on Britain's Got Talent, you know, and it's some weird stuff. And she was in Adelaide Ward in Reading and she was so upset that friends were coming to visit and having to pay the airfare to come to.

Richard Smith: 49:50

Australia and you're laughing and crying at the same time because it's so sad that she's so confused because of the calcium in the blood, but it's funny as well. Anyway, then she came home and, as I said, had the hospital bed in downstairs lounge for the last three weeks. Came home and, I said, had the hospital bed in downstairs lounge for the last three weeks and I cherish those three weeks. So, first, to the 24th of June 2014, she had so many friends she's exactly not what I was, I'm quite sort of insolent. She had. She was so gregarious, as her headmaster said 40 years ago, so many friends would come and visit and she's, you know, deteriorating and it's clearly nearly the end now and they're all coming, coming and they know they're saying goodbye. So raw days and days of rawness, but it's a really positive rawness, because all the niff-naff and trivia doesn't matter when people know and I don't think she was too aware she was quite drowsy and a lot of morphine, you know, but the friends and family visiting did so they'd come in see her and then we walk out to the kitchen and we'd have a hug in tears and then then they'd go, and then an hour later, another and I'd repeat this sort of eight or nine times a day, incredibly raw, but it's almost like the basic life, it's like life in the raw and I almost want to. It's a bit of a drug, so that's maybe when I, when I go back to obviously I wouldn't want her to to die at the end of it, so savoring the times, I think would be something I'd say. But you're in it at the same time. So you know. So there's a whole drug regimen and I was in charge of the tablets, you know, and the alarm would go off on the phone to say now you've got to have your next baclofen or whatever, whatever the drugs were. So you know, I think probably I didn't just spend enough time just being with her sitting Because she had all these friends who wanted to come and say goodbye, you know, which is fine, it's really really lovely.

Richard Smith: 51:35

After she died, I had about 300 people who wanted to come to the funeral. I said how am I going to do this? But we had Bearwood College, just through the woods from us, which is called Redham House now it's an independent school. They had a big marquee up for their speech day. So we had the funeral at the crematorium on the Friday and then the next day we had a sort of like a like a sort of coffee morning. I've had about 300 people there, you know, and they put on a fabulous buffet and we had loads of music and stuff like that, so so that no one wore black for that, you know.

Claire: 52:07

So that was a really big uh celebratory thing, so that's a special time, uh, to remember as well. One of the things I wanted to ask was I know you mentioned it earlier about hope, but what has hope looked like on this journey for you?

Richard Smith: 52:15

well, I think I've put a lot of my thinking into this professional stuff, this work stuff I've been doing around this people being able to see what they've got and feeling a bit less anxious about the future, and doing this continental tour, as I said, of countries who've had these services. You know about half the population use these dashboards at least two or three, four times a year and just the level of comfort about what, what's there and if, if there's not enough there, you can do something about it. So for me, and particularly because of this timing with, you know, the first media report being on a funeral day, that's been a bit and I've put a lot of energy, uh, into that because I feel I can, I can contribute in some way to making things a bit better in in the future. I, I don't know. I mean, if you zoom out, there's bigger worries on the planet, aren't there? You know, there's really really a lot of big worries and I, I think I feel bad again.

Richard Smith: 53:06

But you know, having Gen Z children, you know what is the world if they do get to retirement age in 2066 or 2070, what is the world going to look like then? We don't know. We've reached 1.5 degrees. You know it's a real worry, but this is part of the excitement as well about this tool, this service, because what we found in testing is when people see their three pensions, they say, well, which one's best? Where are they invested?

Richard Smith: 53:31

And I don't know if you saw the campaign Make my Money Matter that Richard Curtis, the screenwriter, has founded. They've said that putting your money invested in sustainable investments is 23 times the impact of giving up flying and going vegan. So what we do with our money is really, really important for the planet. So that's another reason why I'm quite keen for people to see what they've got, so they can then understand how much damage it's doing to the planet or hopefully, do something about that. I'm quite a big picture sort of guy and I think for me, something that's going to have some significant impact for decades to come, for lots of people is has been something, but I think it's only because she's gone. I don't know, I'm not sure. Maybe I had the proclivity to be this sort of person anyway, but the power of actually trying to do something in the now has come about because of the experience well, to come back to the commitment compassion comedy, you said that's not me.

Richard Smith: 54:21

I disagree.

Chris: 54:21

I think from from the little that we know of you I disagree.

Chris: 54:24

I think that is you. I think you are channeling that absolutely brilliantly well. So it's been an absolute joy to talk to you and thank you for sharing so much. Clearly, you're so eloquent in how you share so many years of reflections and wonderings and thinking, so thank you for that. If you could boil it down into something to pass on to somebody else, something that you've grown, you've nurtured, that's healthy, that you could share with somebody else. That's why we asked this last question which so to you, what's your Herman?

Richard Smith: 54:57

Well, my Herman is that loss is everywhere because life happens to everyone, right? But if I'm right on that, then the wonderful upside of that is that hope is everywhere too, if people can sit comfortably with their situation in the moment, day to day, with whatever's happened to them in life or hasn't happened, because, for me at least, keeping that positive grief alive, we're continually reminded of life's uncertainty, and it's that which allows the door to hope to remain open forever.

Claire: 55:34

Embracing uncertainty isn't easy for everyone, but Richard has shown us the kind of freedom that can come from living with that mindset. There's a Chinese proverb that says when the winds of change blow, some people build walls and others build windmills, like Richard was talking about. We have a choice about what we do, how we respond, what we build. I feel like Richard is a good example of a windmill building person, and we think it's inspiring to hear people like that share where grief has taken them and what they've learned along the way. We hope you've had the same experience through this episode and the many others that we've put out. What we've learned today is that maybe grief itself doesn't have to be a sad thing. Yes, it brings sadness, but, as you regular listeners will also know by now, that's certainly not all it brings.

Chris: 56:20

If you'd like to find out more about Richard, check out the show notes for links to the blog he wrote for the Sue Ryder charity about telling his children that their mum was dying. More about the pensions dashboard that he talked about and the straight line charity walk he did across the UK.

Claire: 56:34

And for everything else about us past episodes, resources, blog posts and more you can visit www. thesilentwhycom or find us on social media - @thesilentwhypod .

Chris: 56:43

And don't forget Claire's little hands make wonderful Herman grief companions. They're thoughtful, comforting gifts for people going through hard times.

Claire: 56:52

Yes, hermans are a great alternative to the usual flowers, candles or casseroles that often come with grief or struggle, whether someone's grieving, facing illness, adjusting to retirement or just feeling a bit lost and lonely. Herman is a gentle, meaningful way to say I see you. He comes with a flyer that explains who he is and why you're sending him, and you can see a photo of that on the website and I can even handwrite a personal note to include as well. When you send or buy a Herman, not only does someone sad get the perfect gift to make them smile and you feel good about giving them something unique, but also the money goes straight into supporting the podcast and helping us keep that going. And you can buy your Herman or find out any more details at www. thehermancompany. com.

Chris: 57:33

We'll leave you with a quote that beautifully captures the spirit of Richard's story and the hope that can grow in the midst of uncertainty, from biographer and novelist Margaret Drabble.

Claire: 57:42

"When nothing is sure, everything is possible.