Chris & Claire's top takeaways from 20 years of marriage

#129. What are the most valuable things we've learnt - or think really matter - after 20 years of marriage?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, exploring asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

On 26 May 2025, we celebrated 20 years of marriage! It's a big deal for us as we love being married and find we don't have that much to celebrate in life! So we decided to sit down and discuss what we've learnt over the past two decades, and share what we believe have been the most important ingredients in keeping our marriage as healthy and strong as possible.

And since we host a podcast, we thought 'why not record it for you to hear too?'

So that's exactly what we did. No editing (just the music and usual polish), a Sunday afternoon chat - published on Monday night.

In the build-up, we each wrote down our top five things we think have made the biggest difference in our relationship, but we didn’t share them with each other in advance. Were there overlaps? Surprises? Disagreements? You'll have to listen to find out!

If you’d like to hear more about us, especially our story around infertility and childlessness, you can hear us open up in a similar way in Loss 3: Loss of Fertility - https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/492a29c1/loss-3101-loss-of-fertility-chris-and-claire-sandys-part-1

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Our 20th Anniversary Episode
• 4:28 Our Five "Us-ies": Relationship Pillars
• 16:12 Communication: The Foundation of Connection
• 32:22 Love, Respect and Humility
• 54:51 Friendship, Sacrifice and Investment
• 1:05:41 Reflecting on 20 Years Together

Transcript

Claire: 0:02

Hello and welcome to The Silent Why podcast. This is a podcast that is exploring all kinds of loss, grief and chasing to see if we can find hope through them. I'm Claire.

Chris: 0:12

I'm Chris.

Claire: 0:13

And today we're doing something a little bit different because tomorrow, at the time of recording this, it's going to be our 20th wedding anniversary, so we thought we'd do an episode reflecting on that and sharing what we believe have been the top things that have allowed us to continue this far and still be happily married. And we're not going to have time to edit this one because it goes out in about 48 hours, so we're just going to see where this takes us. So we've each written down five things that we think has been the key to our relationship becoming what it is, and we haven't shared them with each other, so we have no idea what the other one has put down, and at the end of this, we might have 10 keys, as it were, or we might have five, if we've all put the same things is it better if we have five, because it shows our total agreement probably.

Chris: 0:59

Yes, it probably does look good if we've got five, so if we have 10 disaster, don't share the episode, yeah although that's more tips for other people to maybe apply if they want to.

Claire: 1:08

But yes, we'll see. So to give you some context to our relationship, we met in 2002. I was 20 at the time, chris was 22. We had a long distance relationship for the first couple of years. Got married in 2005 when I was 23, nearly 24. And Chris was only just 26.

Claire: 1:25

Feels like babies back then and since then we've had our own losses to face in this time, including money, pets, family members including seven grandparents friends, friends' children, health, identity, dreams, futures that we hoped for, and the biggest one that led us right here to begin the podcast journey was infertility and then childlessness. But through all this, one thing we've really made an effort to make a priority of is our marriage and our relationship, and we've worked hard on this. We've been on courses, we've learned about our personalities, we found coping mechanisms for when things are hard and I went into detail on some of that in the last episode, which was a blog about how to cope when your mental health takes a hit, and I shared some of the ways that we've navigated this in our marriage. And so we thought let's look at all of this, everything we've learned, everything we've thought about individually. When we look back, what do we think have been the keys to a good relationship? But we're not calling them keys. I think we call them uzis, uzis yeah, aziz, aziz, aziz yeah.

Chris: 2:24

Aziz, aziz, aziz. I'm conscious that what's worked for us won't work for somebody else. It might work for somebody else, won't work for everyone else, because everyone is uniquely different. Everyone's circumstances, family setup, background, baggage is very different. So I'm quite conscious that I want to share what's worked for us and really hope and pray that it might inspire somebody else, but I don't like that sort of I can guarantee. Here's five things that will help you or your marriage, whatever. So I want to make them personal. I want to call them Aziz.

Claire: 2:56

Makes sense. It's like grief, isn't it? There's no five ways to get through grief and loss. We can't do that. It's too complicated, it's individual, our relationship is individual, so let's go with us-ies.

Chris: 3:07

Us-ies, okay, us-ies.

Claire: 3:09

Okay, so us number one. So you kick off.

Chris: 3:13

And if I share, so if my first us-ie is reminiscent of your or one of your five how are you going to butt in?

Claire: 3:22

So if mine is similar to yours, I'll shuffle mine so it comes straight after yours, so that we can see that they're similar, right? So yeah, we'll do that as we go along.

Chris: 3:29

Okay, and if I'm looking at my notes and I see in the periphery vision your arms going upright like you're celebrating, I will know that we're in tune.

Claire: 3:37

Ah, I know I might keep it a secret till the end. You might not know that my us is the same, sorry, oh. And the other thing is we've given ourselves two words maximum to title it, yeah. So if any of them match exactly, that would be amazing. I don't think they will because I think, knowing both of us, we've tried to be a little creative with it. Or not, I don't know, but we'll see.

Chris: 3:57

Any sort of, are you?

Claire: 3:59

feeling the pressure. I'm feeling the pressure of not editing Great. Getting pressure of not editing great, getting this right. No, no, I don't feel the pressure.

Chris: 4:05

20 years of marriage I'm not competitive all the things we've learned through come through all of our mindsets, our choices, our decisions, all that sort of stuff. Now we're trying to boil it down into five basic things us number one okay, I'll go first two words. So my first one desire, desire, improvement.

Claire: 4:23

No, not even close, oh okay.

Chris: 4:26

So what I'm saying here for me is and this is reminiscent when you hear people talking about like if they're in recovery from something, it's got to start with a choice. I feel like a big foundational stone of our marriage and of me individually, is to desire improvement, and I'm underlining the word desire. You've got to want it, you've got to like it, you've got to wish for it, got to pray for it, got to go after it. To desire improvement. Is that making sense so far?

Claire: 4:56

yeah, okay, you made so many notes in your book that I'm expecting like a little essay on all of these.

Chris: 5:00

No, no no, no, no. The helpful. And some example. I wanted to get some examples in there. If I'm not a somewhat healthy man, so this is the individual. But if I'm not somewhat healthy in myself, in my mindset, my attitudes, what I bring to the table, and how am I going to be a somewhat healthy husband? So that's where it starts for me that, yeah, I, I've got to want it, I've got to desire it. If I don't want it, don't desire it, I'm not going to give myself to it. So how much do I want it? And to improve, and that has been something I've been open to for the entire length of our marriage, open to improvement. And I have become conscious in the last 10 years, certainly, well, five years, let's say, becoming aware. Actually I need to keep desiring improvement, not least in the last 10 years, certainly, well, five years, let's say, becoming aware. Actually I need to keep desiring improvement, not least to change, but remaining open to it. That starts with me wanting, enjoying, pursuing, liking improvement.

Claire: 5:56

Yeah, I think that's part of your personality, isn't it? There's that perfectionist element in you that you always want to be better at things, you're wanting to improve yourself. You don't really just let go of stuff and let it be bad and be okay with that, and I think that's been a lovely thing. It's one of the things I loved about you. It also has its challenges, obviously, because you have a very strong inner critic, but I think, yeah, that's really helpful and to have that in a relationship is really important, because, if not, you can very easily just slip back into. Oh well, you know what this is, who I am. Now. I'm not quite who I want to be, but that's it, you know. Just accept me, you married me. This is what you've got, and I think that can be quite a slippery slope, so I've been very grateful that you, you want that, and I think we've been pretty good at that this podcast is an example.

Chris: 6:40

I think let's start with a nice topical example the podcast we started it. What three years ago?

Claire: 6:45

Four in September Four years ago.

Chris: 6:47

Yeah, really yeah, four years, and in that time you know it wasn't easy at the start and I think I probably brought more to it.

Chris: 6:56

That made it harder than it could have been, because you've always been just very natural and very open and very able to be yourself, whereas I I came more as a performer, as a professional, wanting things, demanding things, desiring things, and you know we had to work on how we did it together, because you're always quite keen on. You know this has to be something we do as a team. It's teamwork. We want it to be fun, we want to be an enjoyable experience, whereas I would tend to put other things above that the quality of the editing of, or, you know, whatever, how it looks, how it sounds.

Chris: 7:31

So so doing this together over four years has meant that I've had to want to work to be a better partner in this podcast, to be a better supporter of you, a champion of you, more able to work on myself, to relax more, to let go of some of my perfectionist stuff and, as a result, I think we are chatting better and enjoying the process more now than we were. You know I'm not saying everything is rosy, because it's not always easy, but doing doing better now than we were three and a half years ago.

Claire: 8:06

Yeah, and that was a hard journey for you because you came out of you know your background is broadcasting. You've spent your whole working life with headphones and a microphone nearby. That's just what you do. And it was a tricky journey for you to learn that actually radio broadcasting is different from podcasting and I don't think a lot of people would realise that. We didn't realise that. But you start to think, oh, actually you know there's a way that you do things on the radio that you don't do in podcasting. So that's been hard because you know you learn a lot of stuff and perfected it in your job and then you had to relearn it a little bit for this.

Chris: 8:45

So yeah, Particularly with the subject vulnerability as well, rather than just polished perfection.

Claire: 8:50

Yeah, yeah, excellent. Well, I haven't got that one, so we've definitely got one us OK, so not a great start. Constant communication doesn't sound very sexy, but this is the first thing that I think came to me. I have been so grateful for the fact that we have always communicated, and I mean that like even at the times when we didn't want to, when it was really difficult, when there were topics we didn't want to chat about.

Claire: 9:18

When we first met, we were about three hours away in the car from each other for the first two years, and so that meant seeing each other every other weekend, something like that. So a lot of our communication was done on the phone and I think that set us up for a really good starting place, because we really got to know each other well. Well, before we even saw each other in the flesh. We kind of you know, back then there wasn't any Facebook and stuff, so we didn't even really know what each other looked like. It was a bit of a love is blind situation which you don't watch, so you won't get that.

Claire: 9:49

It was nothing like love is blind it was a bit like that, and so we learned communication from the start. But I've been really appreciative how everything we've been through they've been we've communicated, even at the point where we've been able to say to each other I hate talking about this subject or I don't want to talk about this subject, but I think we need to. And I've had to learn communication, particularly when I've not been well and when my mind's been particularly foggy or angry or feeling a bit vicious or evil. I've had to learn how to communicate that in a different way than I probably would have wanted to, naturally, which could have been quite nasty, I think. So through that there's been communication.

Claire: 10:28

When we first met, I feel like we've always wanted to chat about things. When they go wrong, let's look at that. Why did that go wrong? What happened? What were you thinking? What was I thinking?

Claire: 10:35

I think there's you can easily slip into assuming what somebody else thinks in a relationship. I don't think we've done that a lot, which I think has been good, because when we have done that it tended to have gone wrong. I think we can debate and disagree quite well Not always, but I think even that level of communication. I love being able to do that. I love that. We've been on things like marriage courses which have taught us how to communicate, especially when things are bad or you're looking at past history or baggage you might have brought into the relationship, learning how to look at that. When we've gone through grief and loss, family stuff, when things are difficult with either side of our families, we talk about that between us, our thought processes, just I think it's just been a really strong theme of communicating what we're going through, even if it's difficult um I don't think we've let that drop and I think that's been well.

Claire: 11:22

The top us for us is how we've kind of communicated. Does that link with one of yours? Well?

Chris: 11:30

yeah, there are echoes of in one of mine, but not explicitly.

Claire: 11:35

No, that doesn't count. I had echoes, I think, in your first one of a couple of mine, but it wasn't a direct yeah.

Chris: 11:41

But I hear you totally and I agree and I almost think oh yeah, should I knock one of?

Claire: 11:46

my, I think we're going to have this with us. I'm like, oh no, that's a really obvious one. I should have had that. That is something we have prided ourselves.

Chris: 11:53

That's the right word, isn't it? Prided us, prored? We didn't prod ourselves on since we got married and, as you say, I didn't. Even we didn't take it for granted at the time because we knew at the time the benefit of it, but because we spent what? Two years?

Claire: 12:08

Yeah, with a bit of a long distance relationship.

Chris: 12:10

It was a long distance, it's, you know, three hours apart. So a lot on the phone in those early months, early, well early months of our relationship developing. In times of upset, in times of stress, we would say, you know, don't hang up. Of upset, in times of stress, we would say, you know, don't hang up. You know there was that tendency to say look, you know, let me hang up and I'll give you a call back and say no, no, just stay there, stay there let's.

Claire: 12:31

Let's sort of just get used to this awkwardness in a way, let's not be afraid of the awkward yeah, and even when, like we were saying this someone the other day, when we'd come together for the weekend, we'd be so excited we were going to see each other again, because it might have been two, three weeks sometimes and then we'd get together and they have like 48 hours together effectively, and there was so much pressure on that to enjoy it and for it to be good, because you knew it was ending the next day almost sometimes we'd get together and then we'd find it really awkward to get on with each other, but you had to make the most of it quickly because it was about to end and even in that, you know, we had to really talk about and notice these things like, oh, we've noticed this.

Chris: 13:03

We need to be careful of it. Yeah, that's a big thing we've. We have been very good at that that we identify and vocalize, I think, recognize, get it out there and then and then we can well not not necessarily avoid it, but just know what it is when it happens. Yeah, so I think we've always, in different situations, been very good at recognizing in advance. This has happened before. Let's be aware of it happening again and we'll deal with it there's a great example.

Claire: 13:29

Even this week I don't think you'll mind me sharing this because we haven't talked about it before but, um, I asked you last week or recently are you okay? And you're like yeah, I'm fine, but you felt it felt like you were a little bit off, not not off with me, but you were just off colour slightly, which is unusual for you. So when it happens, it feels quite obvious and you're like I'm fine. So I'm like, okay, it's fine, but you didn't seem quite fine. And then later on we were talking about it, I think we were talking, and you said oh, when I said I was fine, I am fine, there's small, but the fact that you were able to then communicate that to me was so helpful in that, in that example I think I was saying that I'm when, I'm saying I'm fine, I'm saying there's nothing between you and.

Chris: 14:15

I there's nothing there. There's no atmosphere, there's nothing wrong.

Claire: 14:19

We are fine, but I'm just a bit weird yeah whereas you, whereas you weren't thinking that you would have been reassured by me saying that, yes, and it happened again later and you were like I'm fine, but I do feel a bit off, and I was like great, because I know that feeling. I totally know what that feels like it happened yesterday.

Chris: 14:36

I was feeling not myself slightly odd mood, a little bit lost, and you were like are you all? Right and I was like aha, ah, no, yes, this is like that. So let me think about this. And I said you know, there's absolutely nothing wrong between us, we are fine, I'm fine, but I just feel a bit off, a bit disconnected, a bit. Um, yeah, mood's a bit weird. And you were like oh yes, thank you, that's, that makes sense. That's a much better answer.

Claire: 15:04

Yeah yeah, because I can.

Claire: 15:06

Then I can just think, okay, that's fine, I'm gonna leave you to it, I know it's nothing I need to deal with or nothing I've done, and then just, yeah, we can just see how that goes.

Claire: 15:12

But I think you know even that 20 years, that's such a tiny little thing, but we're able to still communicate about that and I think that's you know, and people listening to this, well, that's completely alien to them, because some people will listen and be like, oh my word, like I'd never get my husband to be able to do that, my husband would never say that or whatever. I think it's just little things. I think it starts by opening up yourself and being honest and then gradually just getting to a point where you can do this. And I think the fact we could have that conversation was 20 years of working on it, even though it seemed like something you'd do in year one. It was such a simple thing, but it was a really helpful thing and we were able to have that conversation easily because of all the other conversations we've had and everything we've worked on.

Chris: 15:53

So I'm very grateful for that it does lead into my second Uzi quite nicely. So my first was desire improvement. Your first was constant communication. I've made note of that in my journal. And then my second. I'm trying to be clever. I'm trying to think like a t-shirt designer. My second one is love works carry on. I'll tell you if it links with one of mine when I say love works it's sort of that two meaning like love works, but love works, like love works nice.

Chris: 16:22

That's what I'm thinking, and then I wrote down in my journal love works where love works.

Claire: 16:29

Oh wow, you did go deeper into this than I did.

Chris: 16:32

I was picturing T-shirts. Is there a T-shirt? No, there's not. But to stop working is to stop loving, and this is a more common or a wider felt thing in our society that love is a feeling and you can fall out of love with someone. You can stop loving someone because it's based on feelings. But for our marriage to have had so much meaning and value and our companionship to have been so great is because we work at staying in love and what that means for us it's more than a feeling, more than an emotion, more than a lust. Um, a few notes I've made. It's too easily confused with. Like you know, you hear love used a lot, don't you cake?

Chris: 17:17

pizza I love that video, pizza, nice pair of trousers, um. The same love won't ever keep our marriage healthy. I'm talking about the love that and this again, this is me writing down. I'm talking about a love which breaks you down.

Claire: 17:31

It breaks you open, it reveals your innermost vulnerabilities and then says I love you more oh, I would terrify some people, but I get it, but it can be, but I have said.

Chris: 17:41

You know it can be very hard work at times. It's not always pleasant.

Claire: 17:44

it can be, but I have said you know, it can be very hard work at times.

Chris: 17:45

It's not always pleasant. It can be unpleasant. It's very easy to avoid. Yeah.

Chris: 17:49

When there's distractions, it's really easy to avoid. It can be painful, it can be frustrating, it can be nonsensical. At times it doesn't make sense while you're doing this bit of work. But, yeah, what does it look like to work? What do I mean by working and love working? Uh, I put talking, talking, talking. So that links into your last port constant communication.

Chris: 18:13

Yeah, as well as things like marriage courses, counselors, trusted friends, looking inside, looking inwards, looking around, you know everything that you need to do to get to the end of each day, week, month, whatever, able to say I'm a better husband or our marriage is a little stronger because of this. So in this you know, in the same way of like if you think about muscles, exercising, building muscle, the way you build muscle is by breaking it down, isn't it by pain? So, no pain, no gain. And you know the heart is a muscle. In a sense, the metaphorical loving heart is a muscle that you need to work on and it will be painful, but it will come out of the other side stronger nice one example just again, the real life example of what do I mean by this.

Chris: 19:02

What does this look like for us? I've written down clear the atmosphere as soon as possible. This leads into what I'm saying about why this is very individual, in a sense that this is an Aussie rather than an everyonesy. This is an Aussie because in our home there's two of us and we're in our 40s. There are no distractions, there is little noise. So if there's an atmosphere between the two of us, for example, it's quite obvious and neither of us really wants to exist around each other with an atmosphere. So we're very acutely aware of an atmosphere and we've we've become very good over the last 10 years of getting rid of that atmosphere as soon as possible.

Claire: 19:45

Yes, and that kind of plays into when you said that I thought you were going to go down the route of the whole kind of don't go to bed angry type thing where you clear the air. And even that with us, I think is slightly different sometimes, because I've definitely gone to bed, put my head on the pillow and been seething with you and then woke up the next morning and I am still in a mood and you're almost like oh, that's still here. Okay, right, we still need to deal with that. So I don't think I'm always great at the whole kind of diffusing it straight away thing. Sometimes I let that sit. But you're right, it does. Well, it affects everyone in the house because it's just the two of us.

Claire: 20:15

So if you don't move that out of the way, then yeah article aren't we?

Chris: 20:22

We're far from a finished work to do, and this is not saying we've made it. No this is saying we're making it and this is how we're making it.

Claire: 20:27

Yeah Shall, I do my us five, which was very similar to yours.

Chris: 20:31

Us. Is it an usy?

Claire: 20:33

I'm just doing us. If I say usy, it sounds a bit like hussy. Okay, your fifth usy.

Chris: 20:40

These aren't in order of importance or priority no no, no.

Claire: 20:44

So mine are all. They are all alliteration. My two words. I have tried to do that.

Claire: 20:47

The writer, but this is my last one which I was sort of running out of ideas a bit on the alliteration thing. So this was my fifth one initially, but it is very similar to yours, so I'll do it now. So my number five was love, love, which is a little bit like if I'd have had three words it would have been love, love, love. It's a bit like you know that political slogan education, education, education. When you say something three times, it has power. So it's kind of like that. But also when we watched, was it Brutal, mighty, many, many, many years ago. Jim Carrey is on the phone to someone and he finishes it off by going love, love, love, love and we just really like that. And then eventually we've got to the point where we just often finish a phone call with love, love. So that's kind of just our thing, but it was mainly about love so it's very similar.

Chris: 21:34

We used to type that in text messages. When text messages cost it's like. It's okay, I've got 15 characters, this text message lot left. I'm not going to go into another text message. There'll be another 10 pence cost, so I will.

Claire: 21:46

Um, yeah, I will only put seven love rather than 12 um, yeah, so it's about love really, but in all kinds like so not just one type of love, but like the physical love. So I didn't want to put like I didn't want to make one of these too sexy because, like I didn't want it to be like one of the five main courts. But I do think that physical intimacy is another thing that you could let go very easily in a marriage and I think it's worth fighting for, because there will be times when that is very difficult for anyone. We've all been through times where that's harder than other times and obviously the honeymoon phase, when you first get together, that wears off sadly. So you do have to work at things. But it's not just physical love, it's also the emotional love of being there for each other. It's the mental love of like never stop learning about each other. Like we've said, we've learned about how to work around each other. We've learned um different personality types, how that comes together.

Claire: 22:43

I see that as a kind of a love, kind of of getting to know each other better Spiritually. You know, if you're in a marriage where you share that, I think checking in with each other and sharing that between each other I think you can do that in a loving way, I think, just like love for me comes through all these different kind of areas and then loving like with your vows, so when it's hard, when sick, when we're well, when we're sad, when we're disappointed, loving in times when that can be really hard, to love your partner and then, like love languages, loving your partner in the way they want to be loved, not just in the way you think they should be loved, not just buying them gifts if they're longing for maybe some quality time or some words of affirmation. So it's kind of love, but in all the different ways. And I think when you've got it in all those areas, it kind of it seals it quite nicely, because we've we've seen couples over the years that have had like amazing, like sort of almost brotherly, sisterly love, let's say they get on really well in that aspect, but there's zero kind of intimacy or physical contact. We've seen couples where it's all intimacy or physical contact. We've seen couples where it's all about the physical contact and you're like, oh my word, I can't believe what kind of their life behind closed doors might look like. But then there isn't the friendship or there isn't the emotional connection. And I think if you can try and keep all of those, keep a degree of love in there. That's really important and especially like the I was chatting to you yesterday about like the physical side of things.

Claire: 24:06

We were looking back at some photos of us when we were in our 20s, when we first met, and it really encourages me that I don't look back at those photos of you at 23 and think, oh, I wish you looked like that or that's the man I fell in love with, that's the man I married. I look at you now and you're better looking to me now than you ever were back then. So it encourages me that as you get older and I posted something about this on my social media, on my story on the silent why on Instagram this week and it was somebody saying I really worry that, like you know, when I'm 40 will I fancy people that are 40. When I'm 50, will I fancy people that are 50? Um, and this 78 year old had replied and basically said kind of yes, you love people at that at those ages.

Claire: 24:47

And when you get to be old, when you see a newborn baby, you appreciate like the perfection of this newness, of this human, and now he sees this sort of beautiful completion of a human when they're old, like the full story is being written and there's a real beauty to that, in the same way as there is with the baby. So I was just thinking a lot around that as well and just how I've just been so encouraged that I think by doing all this work and loving each other, we're loving the person we see opposite us, because they're a different person but they've got a bit more of their story wrapped up in them. And that, I think, goes through every different area of love, where it's physical, emotional, mental, spiritual. So it's a kind of love, love, yeah, okay.

Chris: 25:31

I like that. I like that and I love the idea as well of the span of time I was thinking like, almost like a depth of something that the more you are with someone, the more deeply you see them and the more there is to discover in those depths. That can be really precious, because you don't see it often it's not on the surface. That when, when we were young, a lot of it was just, yeah, the surface, love, getting to know you, the excitement of because it's all so new. But the the more we get to know each other, the deeper we go and the deeper we see and the stories and the history and the context and there's more. That is is beautiful because it's, it's deeper and you don't see, you don't not everyone gets to see it no, that's true discovery that just I get to make, yeah yeah, that's cool.

Claire: 26:20

so is that the same as you or us, or not? Yeah, that's cool. So is that the same as you're us or not? They're linked, aren't they? They are linked, yeah but not the same. Okay, we'll make a distinction at the end.

Chris: 26:29

Mine was love works, yours was love love.

Claire: 26:33

I mean, we're never going to get this If we get the same two words on any of these. I'm going to be so amazed.

Chris: 26:37

Yeah, okay, my third one. Ready for one, ready for that. Go for us three.

Claire: 26:49

my uzzy, my third uzzy is humble yourself or humble myself okay, I haven't got that one right.

Chris: 26:50

Anything to do with humility, nope, nope, great. Okay, we're not doing very well with our. We're gonna have 10 different things, aren't we?

Chris: 26:58

we are not aligned so, but I did note down. This one's quite specific to me, I think. When I forget to do this, I can be which will come as no surprise to you to hear me saying out loud but I can be selfish, I can be arrogant, I can be stubborn, I can be selfish, I can be proud, I can be greedy, resentful and bitter. Greedy, resentful and bitter. I can be, I can, I can move towards those areas if I don't humble myself. And you know I, I know, and, as we've said a few minutes ago, I've got a long way to go, but I know I've come a long way in the last few years as well, and this is down this is this is down to my relationship with Jesus, absolutely, and also getting in sort of in contact more with my. I don't want this to sound a bit like a bit cheesy, but getting more in contact with my emotions, with my feelings, what we're saying at the start, recognizing them, identifying them, recognizing them for what they are, and that, for me, has been through reading. I've read some really helpful books, things like the Enneagram that we've spoken about before. I think that's been quite helpful for us in some fun areas Again counseling, prayer, doing the podcast, that sort of thing, recognizing my limitations as well. I think that's something that was quite new to me, that actually it's not a bad thing to have limitations For me. You know, at one point I would have thought, absolutely no, do everything you can as much as you can, whenever you can, but actually, no, I have limitations and that's not a bad thing to recognize.

Chris: 28:37

And then forgiveness as well. This has been quite a big thing because this is, this is about you sometimes as well, but there are times that I I have to forgive you whether you deserve it or not. But it's and this won't make sense to everybody because our our concept of forgiveness. It can vary quite a lot. There are people that subscribe subscribe to you know, you only forgive. If whoever is seeking forgiveness or asking for forgiveness, I don't subscribe to that. I say forgive anyway for your own good.

Chris: 29:14

So, even though you may have done absolutely nothing wrong in our marriage, I may have taken something in a way or something over time has become something that I've thought actually I need to forgive you for this and and not hold on to it, not recognize it as a resentment or a bitterness, but let it go so forgiving, forgiving myself and forgiving you have been a big part of that journey, and that doesn't just happen once, that might happen. Um, okay, you know every now and again that journey, and that doesn't just happen once, that might happen. Um okay, you know. Every now and again I'd say I still got a long way to go. But that, for me, is all part of humility, bringing a humble version of myself, somebody that's willing to learn, recognizing they're still on a process of change. I'm not a finished product. And does that come back to my first one, that sort of desiring improvement, wanting you to help me improve yeah, yeah, and they're big areas, aren't they?

Claire: 30:10

I mean, they are so difficult and I think that can be a little bit, um, male female sometimes. I think some men might find some of those things a little bit harder. I don't know, might be generalizing there, but I've. I mean, I've found things like you know, apologizing is a big thing in a relationship and we've had conversations with this many times with other couples, like how do you find apologizing? And everyone has a different relationship with it and usually there's one in the relationship that finds it easier than the other.

Claire: 30:33

I don't find apologizing easy, and apparently that was just me from a kid, because I didn't mean it. So if I do something wrong, you know, if I were to accidentally hit you in the face, knock something on someone's foot, I'd be very sorry. Oh, my word, I'm so sorry I did that. And for little things, very happy to say, oh, I forgot to get that thing, I'm so sorry, stuff like that. But if it's a big thing and it's like I've behaved a certain way, I find it very hard to say sorry. If I know, I would respond like that again and I don't want to change how I was. So I think that sort of thing is a massive challenge for me and trying to work out when is it right to say sorry, even if you don't mean it and if you would?

Claire: 31:14

yeah, that sort of thing. Those areas, I think, are huge for people to work through and they are the kind of areas where you feel like you have to massively humble yourself to do them, but they are important to be done. On the other side, I would say not apologizing very easily. I never expect an apology from anybody either. It goes both ways. I don't give them a lot, but I don't ever expect them from anyone. So I think that can be a good thing. I've never been chasing you for for a sorry for anything, but I find that is a big area. If I had to think about things that have humbled me, it's been having to wrestle with those sorts of things and I'm definitely not even close to being a finished product on that but you are a lot humbler than I am.

Chris: 31:48

Oh how lovely. There's been a particular book called well done, good and faithful servant how to persevere with a faith that passes the test of time. This is written by Steve Pollard lives in Gloucestershire, where we live a self-published book, but I found it brilliant. One of the things in particular to draw out, draw out of this. He wrote something and this may have been him using what others have written about. I don't know, but this for me, has been revolutionary. It's about judgment and to read from the book.

Chris: 32:15

Another understanding which has brought great relief to many is the recognition that when I form a judgment such as my wife is lazy, that is not simply judgment, it's also an instruction to my brain to filter input. In other words, I'm telling my brain, number one, not to pay attention to any information that runs counter to that argument and number two, to pay attention to information that fits with it. That's it, and I don't need to read more. But that in itself, I've realized how many judgments I have formed and then become aware of and again this taps into what we were saying earlier recognizing and trying to then correct, becoming aware of how much information I was filtering in or out, based on that judgment. So we had, probably a year ago now, we had a funny conversation, didn't we about? I think you did something in the kitchen and I'd said well, I'm, you know I do, but I do most of this.

Claire: 33:06

I think I'm the queen of the kitchen well about me or about you? I think you said that about you.

Chris: 33:14

I'm the queen of the kitchen and you were like what I've, and it was. They've had some funny argument about how many times you'd cooked that week.

Claire: 33:21

How many?

Chris: 33:21

times I had and I came to realize that I'd I'd formed and lived with a judgment that I do most of the work in the kitchen, which I'm not unhappy about. I enjoy that because I enjoy cooking. It wasn't even the case, but I formed this judgment and therefore I'd only filter in the times that you weren't active and I almost would ignore, without thinking, the times you were active, so I wasn't paying attention to when you were cooking a meal without thinking the times you were active.

Chris: 33:46

So I wasn't paying attention to when you were cooking a meal, just to the times that I was cooking, because that fed my and backed up the judgment I'd formed yeah, I mean to be fair.

Claire: 33:54

You, it was a sort of it was a tricky one. I can see why the judgment got formed because you were doing some batch cooking at the weekends, so you'd put all these meals together in the freezer but then I was cooking dinner every night after you got home. So I think it was a weekend that you were doing something and you're like, well, I do most of the. I was like, are you kidding me? I do five nights a week, but a lot of the time what I was providing was something you might have batch cooked at the weekend. So there wasn't. There was like a mix of the two. So I can see why you're very kind.

Chris: 34:18

I don't think it was. It's quite like that, I think genuinely, but not just at home. I recognize that outside of the home as well, whether it's at workplaces, family stuff, church stuff, that I've got a lot of breaking down of these judgments to do and still have to do, but that was super helpful.

Claire: 34:34

It's interesting when you spot them, though, because I'd never heard of this before either and I was like, ah, and it started to make sense occasionally between us we could see, hang on a second. This is another one of those judgments, because if you at the actual proof, it's not there for what we're believing. So, yeah, really interesting thing. I reckon a lot of marriages could really do with just even knowing about that. It wasn't something I knew about.

Chris: 34:54

That's my third Uzi.

Claire: 34:55

OK, so my third one, which is all confusing now because it's us number two, for me is real respect.

Chris: 35:05

Real.

Claire: 35:06

Real respect as opposed to. You know that fake respect.

Chris: 35:09

Yeah, okay.

Claire: 35:10

Nothing to do with me, just looking for a word that begins with R. Yeah, so this is about respect for each other and not losing that. Have you got anything similar? Nope.

Claire: 35:20

Great, I like that. We're all different. I thought we'd honestly be. They were so obvious it would all be the same.

Claire: 35:32

Yeah, so I think when you start living together, um, live with somebody, anyone, you just get comfy with them. There's a level of comfort that appears and I think respect is really important. So things like saying please and thank yous for the small things people are doing around the house, or you know, someone passes you something or makes you a cup of tea, just not taking other people for granted, um, and just because you're married, it's very easy just to assume that you a cup of tea, just not taking other people for granted, um, and just because you're married, it's very easy just to assume that you can kind of drop all that. So I think not getting complacent and still giving that you're part of the respect, respect they deserve. And for us sometimes it's about respecting how we're different, or maybe respecting each other's time and space.

Claire: 36:04

It might be about respecting how we talk to each other, or together, like when we're on our own, but also in front of others or behind each other's backs. Or maybe you know, if you've got kids in the house, it would be how you speak to each other in front of children, because I think it's very easy to get to a point where you stop respecting your partner and then you might find that you're still respectful to other people, hopefully. And if I saw you being really respectful to some other person but I didn't get any of that myself, I think I'd find that really difficult. I think that'd be a potential issue that could get quite big actually. So it's lovely to be comfy together and I'm not saying we should be like super polite and you know, good morning, mr Sands. I think it's more about like I would like that.

Chris: 36:44

I'm like you would, sir it's your cup of tea.

Claire: 36:47

It's just about remembering the basic stuff, and you know, I know that like please and thank yous, they're not, it's a cultural thing, it's a British thing, isn't it?

Claire: 36:56

Not every culture does that, but there's a level of respect in every culture, I'd imagine that's similar. So for us, that would be one of the things and if I, you know, made you a meal or gave you a cup of tea or, you know, did something for you that you appreciated, if we got to that place where we felt we never had to say thank you or I never had to say please when I asked you to do something, or I was talking, you know, to you in front of other people and I was really rude about you or I wasn't respecting how you might be feeling about something, or anything like that, I think that would be a real point of contention, and so I'm really appreciative that. I feel, naturally, we've always had a lot of respect for each other. I've never felt disrespected by you, or if I have, it's been minor. We've communicated about it well, and then you know, we've sorted it out and that's usually just a misunderstanding anyway. But yeah, I think respect has been really important.

Chris: 37:50

And I of misunderstanding anyway. But yeah, I think respect has been really important and I've really appreciated that there was that occasion when you you didn't wake me up with a good morning, I felt very disrespectful.

Chris: 37:53

I got beaten wow, we're going, there are we and then you humbled yourself, yeah, and all was well, yes, okay, well, yeah, there is gonna be lots of occasions where other people might think it's a one-way thing in their relationship. You're talking from a place where you know this has been one of the one of the five things that's been a pillar of our marriage because it has always been a two-way thing. Yeah, that we've both given each other and received respect. Yeah, so that balance has been there, but it must be a horrible one if it's just a one-way thing.

Claire: 38:33

Yeah, and I do think a large amount of it can be down to your upbringing. So if you've got somebody that's never been taught any respect, never had any respect and hasn't had an upbringing that's kind of had that as part of it at all, then I think you know that's very difficult to kind of battle or have in a relationship because it's not something someone's used to. Both of us were brought up to respect other people, to respect ourselves, to respect our elders. There was a level of respect there from day one and that's one of the things I loved about you when I first met, we met you, there was that respect there. So a lot of it possibly is pre our marriage. But what I love is that we haven't lost that and got so complacent with each other that we feel we don't have to do any of that stuff.

Claire: 39:14

I love that there's still that level of respect there, as if we well, it's the same level of respect we would give other people and I think when you drop it in a relationship because you think I don't need to bother with that, you're still probably giving it to other people, and I think for me it would be hard if I did stuff for you and I never got a thank you. I never got any appreciation or I felt you were disrespectful in the way you spoke about me. But then when you were with other people, you were lovely. That would be hard to watch. I think that would be difficult. I find that hard. So I think to keep it in the relationship is important. Even if you've got it anyway, don't just, yeah, get complacent with the person you live with, because they still deserve the same amount of respect.

Chris: 39:49

I feel respected. Oh good, thank you. I'm part of the times that you say that I beat you Well of course, yeah. Okay. What's yours? Two more to go. So my fourth Aussie is invest generously.

Claire: 40:02

Nope, well, no, not no to investing, but no, I don't have that one on my list.

Chris: 40:07

Okay, I've had desire improvement. I've had work hard Well, love works. I've had humble yourself and then invest generously. Why am I saying invest generously? Like with any investment, there's a cost. Okay, there's a cost to pay. There's a cost incurred in in our marriage. You know it has cost me, but the hope of the return is always there. So I know that there is a return on that investment and it's a case of being generous with that heart, mind, body, so with my heart. What does that mean? About generosity? That's about your emotions. Mind, that's about your decisions. Body, that's about your actions. This is again how I think about this topic. And then, what do you need from me? It has to be a selfless thing, has to be a sacrifice similar to my last one about humility. You might not know when the return will be known, but you can rest assured it it will be and a couple of questions that I've written down.

Chris: 41:09

I think I've come across this in marriage courses or books or things. But if I was to sort of not ask you the question but base my actions on my believed answer to this question, what can I do for you right now, what can I I do for Claire right now, or what does Claire need from me right now? I don't have to ask you that question, but if I consider that question, that will change my sort of heart, my mind, my body, what I need to invest in, what I need to lay down of my own selfish desires in order to support you, meet you, to invest in our relationship. Yes, it's about the here and the now and I know this.

Chris: 41:52

This is quite, this is quite a dangerous road because it could, a bit like you were saying about the respect thing, it could lead to an unhealthy place of just giving and giving and giving and you know if you were very high maintenance as a wife and giving and giving, and you know if you were very high maintenance as a wife, this could lead to just brokenness if I just give you what you need, what you want.

Chris: 42:12

But I know in our marriage there's a really healthy balance. So it's something that I'm really willing to do to invest, yeah, invest generously, and I again, I try to write down or think of some real-life examples For me. I'd say, some of the holidays we've had, some of the nights in, some of what we do with our diary has been what we've needed to do over the last 10 years in order to support you and therefore us and our marriage, in times of poor health levels of what do we need right now? So I, you know I'm I'm laying down some of my selfish desires to invest in our marriage by those heart, those mind, those body actions of just thinking to myself what does claire need for me right now?

Claire: 43:03

yeah, good. Okay, I haven't got that one, but my next one is similar, so might link in great tell me, so my us three, but I've got your numbers what's your fourth one, oh? No, it's not it is yeah, you're right. It is sorry I did five, didn't I already? I'm so confused with my list um selfless sacrifice yeah, similar, similar, but from a different angle um, so it was following on from my last one, which was respect.

Claire: 43:32

So the whole point of this was this goes beyond respect. It's just not just about respecting somebody else, but it's actually not about you anymore at all. It's about being willing to compromise. So I think, and we've always said, that, you know, our relationship is a top priority and that for us comes above family friends. You know, if we had children, it would have been above children. That was our top kind of priority, because from that everything else spans and goes well. If you put other things in place more of a priority from what we've seen of other people, you know it doesn't go well.

Claire: 44:04

So the selfless thing is about well. That sounds selfish now. Okay, so it's about sacrifice. So yeah, that's it. So our marriage should always be our top priority. That's the important thing above everything else, and it's important to have time for others, etc. Etc. But it's a big commitment, so it needs to be a priority and along with that come sacrifices to make it work.

Claire: 44:23

I think that's where I was coming from. So there's little sacrifices obviously every day when you live with somebody else. There always will be. They get less and less, I think, over time because you get used to how somebody works. So it's not as much of a sacrifice, it's more of a compromise. But there's also big ones in life, like you were talking about. Sometimes you have to do things completely differently and you don't.

Claire: 44:41

I think the selfless sacrifice for me is that you don't need to make every single one of these known. So I think in a relationship it's really important to sometimes sacrifice your own needs or wants, but not in a way that you have to point it out to the other person or tell them about it all the time, and that's why it's a sacrifice. But it's a sort of a selfless one in that you can't then draw attention to what you're doing. And I think for us there's been a lot of those along the journey on both sides where we've learnt what sacrifices we make and we need to talk about, because maybe it's becoming too big a sacrifice and what sacrifices we do all the time, maybe to just get along well, that we don't need to talk about. And I think it's really interesting because it plays into our, our personality types a little bit, because for me there's a level of not putting other people first too much because I lose myself and that's a bit of a danger with me.

Claire: 45:37

In the same way that you were saying you can have a tendency towards selfish. Um, we rarely see you go to that extreme, but you're more likely to go down that road and I'm more likely to go kind of forget myself completely, which sounds like. I just hate saying that because it sounds like some kind of wonderful martyr thing, but it really isn't. It's very unhealthy and it's um, it's quite arrogant in some ways as well, I think.

Claire: 45:56

So we've got different takes on this when it comes to sacrifice, and whereas I would probably be like take everything in a really unhealthy way, if I was in the wrong relationship, that would really be damaging me badly. With the wrong person I would be giving out to a level that was very unhealthy, probably get myself into very horrible situations. So I think there's a lot it's all in, kind of all incorporated but I just think getting that balance right of being willing to sacrifice for your partner, but in the right way and doing it in a selfless way, so that you're doing it because you love them and not because you need to point it out that they just did this or they just did that and you cleared it up for them and you didn't mention it and all this kind of stuff. So yeah, it's a complicated one, but it's.

Chris: 46:40

It's very evident, isn't it? When you're a child, when you're growing up. You know, I was there as the young teenager, the old teenager, when you're asked to do something, that means putting down what you were doing to come and help, let's say, and the stereotypical teen response, certainly in Britain, is huffing and puffing, isn't it? Yeah, so oh, I don't want to do that, so it's it's, it's coming to do, so you're doing what's needed, but your attitude is completely I'm making this as evident as possible I am not happy about this.

Chris: 47:11

Yeah yeah, so it's not doing that.

Claire: 47:14

Yes.

Chris: 47:15

Which is hard at times. It is hard and it needs to be under expectations that are realistic.

Claire: 47:21

If someone's constantly asking you to do stuff and never letting you do anything, there are very unhealthy levels on both sides of this extremes. So it is under the right circumstances. With someone that loves you and that respects you and does all the other things, then giving up a little bit of what you want to do for somebody else is not a bad thing.

Chris: 47:38

But I'm not saying you should give up who you are, what you do, what you want to do, not any of that, and that's why it's a tricky one to explain, but the balance needs to be right an example that's in my mind right now is that and this is something we've spoken about and I still find tricky if I'm, let's say, I'm in a room of the house on my phone, I'm probably wasting time, but in my mind, I'm doing something important, like I'm looking up this video of a panda bear rolling around a slide, and that's really important. They are important. Or I'm replying to messages, because I got a backlog of whatsapp messages and so if I'm in that room, you come into that room and start a conversation about something, something that requires discussion. So the conflict in me is that I know that we have spoken about this in the past, so I want to give you my attention. You want my attention.

Chris: 48:32

I readily admit I can't do two things at once, so I need to remember and choose, when you start talking, to just put my phone aside and look at you and talk to you, whereas the tension in me is I was doing this first. I'm going to finish what I'm doing. There's still three more videos of pandas to watch before I go. How can I help you, my dear?

Claire: 48:57

but there's so many options here. See a like. Firstly, just say to me come and look at this video of a panda, because I love videos of pandas, so I could join you in it. But also that's. It's a really good example because you know, if I'm on my phone and you walk in, pretty much I put that phone straight down because I can pick it up again, sort out what I'm doing in a minute and you are the most important thing in the room. So there's a kind of a. So the expectation on me is that you will do that, and that's not a fair expectation, because I'm putting my own expectations on you, whether it's right or wrong. I want you to do that because that's what I would do and that's part of my personality. Trait is to expect I'll give a lot to others, but then I can expect it back again, and that's not always fair. But having said that, the argument in my head is why am I not more important than whatever's on his phone?

Claire: 49:42

yeah, and that's what most women are thinking if they're nagging men about their phones. Why aren't I more important than whatever is on that phone? Because that's the only message it sends is right now.

Chris: 49:51

This is more important than you and that that is likely based on many years of proof that, again, I can't do two things at once. Yeah, if you're on your phone, I would still talk to you, or you ask you the question, because I know you can do. I've got so many examples.

Claire: 50:05

Yes, that's weird because I would assume you'd be upset if I did that. No, no, fascinating.

Chris: 50:09

I absolutely know that you are paying attention to me, even though you're typing a message, whereas I know I've proven to you I can't do two things at once. Yeah. So yeah, interesting.

Claire: 50:19

Little sacrifices.

Chris: 50:31

Yeah that's the example to mind, with your selfless sacrificing, actually thinking I'm not going to make a big, I'm not going to say to you hold on. While I put my phone down for you, recognizing what you're about to say is probably important. I'm going to put this, this very important thing I was doing with these pandas. That's not cool. Put it down.

Claire: 50:37

You have my attention but even worse is to put your phone down, listen for about three seconds, then be like did you notice? I just put my phone down like really not, not the thing to do.

Chris: 50:46

But then to do all that silently and humbly. It makes you love me more.

Claire: 50:52

When you start talking to me and you notice that without protest my phone goes down and I engage, I think, most people if a woman has been nagging you to do something and then you do it, you don't need to point out that you've just done it, because it will probably stand out on mild like oh my word, it's probably the same with parenting If you've told your kid a hundred times to do something and they will not do it, and then they suddenly do it, even though they might not say anything, something inside them is jumping with joy because that just happens. You don't want to draw attention to it, so, yeah, we always notice.

Chris: 51:29

So it final uzzy.

Claire: 51:30

As for or maybe we should rename these me's because we haven't well, they're threads. This one might be it, though this one is it okay, so here we go.

Chris: 51:35

My final uzzy is to share fully no well, you don't want to share fully I want to share okay so, uh, I've written this down and I first wrote share wholly, but it's quite an old-fashioned word, isn't it? To share okay. So, uh, I've written this down and I first wrote share wholly, but it's quite an old-fashioned word, isn't it, to share the whole of me to share fully.

Chris: 51:52

Yeah, this is about experiences. It's about things I'm learning. It's about laughter, jokes, fun. It's about memories. It's about pain points, tears, disappointments, plat. Do you get the message this? Is fully sharing, where I am totally sharing what's going on. You know, I can happily say that you're my best friend, you're my soulmate, you're my lover, you're my life companion.

Claire: 52:20

My word words of affirmation, isn't it?

Chris: 52:23

physically responding to the words and I want, I want to share life with you and I want to share all of my life with you and there's nothing that I want to keep you out of. This is sort of an access all areas thing. A caveat it a bit, because this doesn't mean that I think I need to share everything with you. Glum face, because we've learned over the years there are some things that are best shared with a trusted friend. You know, man to man things, there are things that I as a guy have had to deal with. I've had to clear out the way and that's best done with.

Chris: 53:00

When I say a trusted friend, that's someone that you trust and you're aware of that I trust and that you sort of bless that friendship and you know what's going on. But ultimately you're the biggest shareholder of my life and it's important to maintain that healthy balance of the shared experiences that we have. I think, finally, on that point, before I give an example and this is something that we discussed and it was a challenge way back, probably eight or nine years ago recognizing that you were in a point where we had to sit down and talk about for both of us. It's not right and we see this in others. It's not right. If work gets the best of you, you should get the best of me, I should get the best of you, not, we give it to others and then we come home and we're useless.

Claire: 54:04

Which is really difficult because, effectively, like, the person that's at home gets the authentic you. So you know someone coming home and collapsing, like when I was, you were seeing the authentic of what was happening to me and what work was seeing was a fake version of me, effectively. So it can be really difficult to learn that because at first you think, well, I'm giving you the authentic version. But then, yes, when you realize that you can go into work and you can laugh and chat with your colleagues and everything feels great, and then you come home and I mean this would be huge in childlessness. So when you're going through child loss and stuff like that, people will go into work.

Claire: 54:41

They probably act fine or any grief. To be honest, you can act fine. You know you're laughing, joking. You come home and then you just sob and you're miserable in some ways. You think, well, that's authentic and it is. But if that is the only part of you that your partner gets, if he never gets the part that's laughing and joking occasionally and having fun in the office and that, then yeah, I think that's something you do need to be careful of.

Chris: 55:00

I feel like I should clarify as well that when I say the best of you, that doesn't mean happy, upbeat, positive it. It means that and everything else, it's the the, everything that's on the inside. It's like it's making an effort, isn't it?

Claire: 55:14

you make an effort for your work colleagues to not be a miserable crying ball at work, and occasionally you need to make the effort at home it might be on a weekend or whatever for your partner to experience other sides of you as well. But yeah, not fakely, it should all be authentic.

Chris: 55:28

But yeah, I know what you're saying some examples for us in our 20 years of married life. What does this look like? It looks like cake, cake.

Claire: 55:38

We share our cake experiences although you don't like me sharing the cake beyond this house well, no if I say I'll make a cake and take it somewhere else.

Chris: 55:46

You get very sad I put, I put down my, my nail, picking as an example my sort of addiction that I've had for longer than I've known you, um, but my desire to beat that addiction and which I haven't conquered yet but I will. But you've shared that with me. It's just an example of you know, when I say your best, it's sharing, fully sharing everything sharing and that's been, that's been a really hard journey.

Chris: 56:10

That's not an easy thing to share no, no, you encourage me, you beat me when it goes badly only after you've beaten me our bank accounts. Another thing, which for me is just an obvious thing, but I know from people I talk to that actually having a shared joint bank account is not common in a couple, but we should. You know what? Literally, what is mine is yours, what's yours is mine. It's okay for now. Remember what I said about investing generously there will be a return.

Chris: 56:39

Another thing is our expectations. We share those. We try and help each other with our expectations. The zoo we love a shared experience of a zoo. Visit a wildlife park visit we do that together, praying. Share that our faith. One of the things I wrote down here just for fun is tv catchphrases and nicknames. That just again the fun side of stuff that I love being in. I'm not going to say it now, but I love being in the supermarket and like if you're down an aisle somewhere and there's a few other people in that, I love calling you by your nickname. It just makes me feel happy inside.

Chris: 57:12

I like hearing it even those other people are like yeah, yeah, so that, and we have so many tv comedies a lot of british, I know some american as well tv comedies that we've both loved. We have a very similar sense of humour that probably 5% of our vocabulary when we're around each other at home is repeating.

Claire: 57:33

Quoting.

Chris: 57:33

And quoting catchphrases that we love that it just brings us great joy and we often use them as puns and things. Yeah, it's great. One comes to mind Bing Pot from Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

Claire: 57:44

Yeah, oh, there's so many. I was trying to think of some, but actually I just don't even know where you'd start.

Chris: 57:48

There's so many, like we said earlier about the love, love, love.

Claire: 57:51

We saw that on a TV thing, loved it and just stuck it in our vocabulary. It's still there, like 10, 15 years later.

Chris: 57:56

Yeah, end of a voice note. Blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah, but I about 5% of our entire vocabulary is probably made up of repeating and quoting things that we've mutually enjoyed. The shoes up, sharing fully. Yeah, that's my fifth Uzi.

Claire: 58:14

Yeah, Brilliant. Okay, well, mine's not a million miles away. They are similar. My us four, which is now the five. This is driving Chris mad because the numbering's not perfect.

Chris: 58:25

Oh, hang on. What was your? I didn't write down in my journal what was your third.

Claire: 58:30

Selfless sacrifice.

Chris: 58:33

Let me guess this Okay, so you've got a C. You've had constant communication. You've had real respect. You've had love, love. You C. You've had constant communication. You've had real respect. You've had love, love. You've had selfless sacrifice. It's going to be something like feely feelings.

Claire: 58:44

It is F? Is it? Yes, but it's not that no, okay, flip the feelings. That's three words I wouldn't cheat.

Claire: 58:52

Go on. Fantastic friendship, okay, not dissimilar. Yeah, I think when I look back, for me one of the biggest blessings in our relationship has been just being best friends and I just didn't think that would happen. I don't know, you don't see it much do I think of media and you know books and tv stuff. There's always girlfriends. The girls always have girlfriends. They have time with their girlfriends and I think I grew up assuming I'd always have a best friend girlfriend. I don't think I've ever had a best friend really like. I've had friends along the way. I don't know if I've had ever had one that would say to each other we're best friends not really been in my vocabulary, but the friendship I've had with you has outlasted so many things.

Claire: 59:33

I think a lot of the friends I've had in my life have been over different seasons and they come and they go. Some stay around long times. You know some people you don't speak to for five, ten, six years. Whatever you pick up the phone, it's like it was yesterday. Others you know, you kind of see a bit on and off and some just fade away completely. And I think, with the stages of life that we've been through and not having children, the friends around us. Their lives have changed so completely that it's actually to have somebody that has been there and understood what we're going through, that we laugh together, cry together, have fun together. That kind of exceeds all of the other friendships. Um, that's been huge and I think, just in that being each other's sort of biggest cheerleaders in a way and we're not the sort that really big each other up a lot, it's not like, oh, it's amazing. It's amazing because we're both. We've both got a little bit of that perfectionist streak in public.

Claire: 1:00:24

We're quite often put off by couples that pick each other up in public we're not going to be wishing each other happy anniversaries back and forwards on facebook and stuff. It's not like big public displays of affection. It's not like that and I don't think you'd ever be. You know you you're a very realistic person, so am I? So we're never going to be like, oh you know, you're the best person in the world at that or that's the best thing. You know we're not those kind of people. But we are cheerleaders in the fact that there's support there if we need it, even if it's just maybe too realistic at times.

Claire: 1:00:52

I think I've just appreciated that sort of support and I think in some ways it's made me think to myself if I had really good friends, what does that mean about my relationship? Because if I was willing to go further with my friends and I gave more to them than I did to you, that would be a very different relationship. So I think some people do need that friendship support if their relationship isn't strong enough or doesn't have that friendship level. So I totally understand that, because I think everyone needs friendship. But for me and for you it's been in our relationship and I've been very grateful of that, because there haven't been many other opportunities to make new friends. So a lot of my friends that I know they've got friends from different stages of life, but a lot of them at the moment have got friends from having children, so they know people at the school gate. They've got mums they're chatting to when the kids are getting together. There's a lot of new friends or new acquaintances they might say I don't know that have come along in a new stage of life. We've never had that. So we've tried to cling to friends from like a long time ago or we're trying to make new friends, but people are busy at this.

Claire: 1:01:53

It's been really difficult, I think the friend thing but having you has made it less tough and I think friendship is something that you choose to have as well. You don't no one forces friends on you. You know I'm, I am married to you by law. We have to be together to some degree but we don't have to be friends. I think it's a sort of a one of the aspects that you can really choose to have and allow to have, and I love that we have that and that to me, has been more important, probably through all the stages we've been through, than some of the other stages, even when they've been amazing in other areas of our relationship. I feel like it's the friendship bit that's been like a base that I keep coming back to, that's helped me through, you know, if we're not feeling great or if we're going through a stage we're not really connecting and all those those kind of things. I think it's a really good place to start and a good place to end really with a friendship.

Chris: 1:02:43

Not just a friendship, a fantastic.

Claire: 1:02:46

A fantastic friendship.

Chris: 1:02:48

Yeah, I concur with that absolutely. I feel that when you were talking a minute ago, I was thinking of those times and this isn't just in front, like you were saying about do you have a better relationship with your boy or girlfriends because you're not getting it at home? And that that's the danger is within. If you're having to get something elsewhere because you're not getting it at home, that's a problem, isn't it? Whatever you're having to seek it could be food stuff, through to friendships, validation, support, encouragement, love, sex the danger is when you start going to look for elsewhere because you're not getting it.

Claire: 1:03:26

I do think there's some things that you might need to go and get from elsewhere.

Claire: 1:03:29

You know, for example, if you need to talk through stuff you might need to go to therapy, if you need to chat to girlfriends or boyfriends about different things that you can't or you shouldn't be chatting to your partner about there, you know there are times for that and I think if you're in a very lonely marriage, then having friends that are supportive and that will help you maybe improve your relationship and, you know, can do it in a, like, a good way, not dragging you away from your partner and just sitting there and hating on them the whole time.

Claire: 1:03:54

I think there's a place for that. So I think that can be really important to replace some of the stuff you might not have. But I don't think it's a great long-term strategy and I think it should only be as a way of helping you to try and improve your relationship, not instead of but um, yeah, I think it's a massive bonus if you if you do have the friendship there as well well, I don't feel like anything of your five has surprised me, which is good, oh excellent, oh excellent, same with you.

Chris: 1:04:18

Yeah, there are threads of similarity through a number of them. We've voiced them in a different way. I expect you'll list them in the show notes, will you?

Claire: 1:04:26

Oh, I don't know, I might give it away.

Chris: 1:04:28

That's probably not a bad. They're not secrets.

Claire: 1:04:30

Yeah, but they might be on the journey with us Like are they going to line up? Are they not going to line up? If I that we don't line up on anything there?

Chris: 1:04:36

really isn't that dramatic a climax.

Claire: 1:04:37

Oh, I like to think there is.

Chris: 1:04:40

Well, there wasn't. We've just had the chat.

Claire: 1:04:43

Yes, I may well do Right. Yeah, how do you feel? Do you feel like you've been married for 20 years? Does that feel like something that's?

Chris: 1:04:52

I don't feel like I have when I'm reminded and I see things like you made a little video that you're going to put on social media on our anniversary.

Chris: 1:05:03

So when I saw that video that speaks deeply into, I think, visually recognising my word look how far we've come, look how much we've grown, look how we've changed In a beautiful way, what I was coming back, you know what I was saying about. The longer you're with someone, the deeper you get to know them and the more there is to explore the depths of and there's beauty to be found there. You see that through that video, I think, from the surface, the fun, the excitement of the early days through to 20 years on. So, yeah, I don't feel like I don't feel like I've been married 20 years. Do you feel like you've been married 20 years?

Claire: 1:05:45

No, not really it doesn't feel. But then when I start to look back and think of all the different stages, they do feel like a long time ago. When I think of us, you know, first getting together or then finding out about infertility. And you know, we were chatting with people recently and we've done this a few times and just thought to ourselves, crumbs, if we'd had children like a couple of years after we got married, there'd be 18 this year. That's. That gives me some context, I think, for how, how far along we are. And I think sometimes you know, when we've got friends and they've all got young children, I think they feel like I feel like I'm sort of in their boat, but we just don't have children. But actually I'm not in their boat. I wouldn't have a five or six year old, I'd have a teenager going off to uni. And that makes me stop and think and just think where I am on the journey.

Claire: 1:06:33

It's hard to judge that sometimes, but yeah, no, it doesn't. I just I can't believe that I can remember anything 20 years ago. That just sounds like such a long time. I can't believe I'm old enough to remember stuff like that. But then, looking through the photos, I can definitely see how we've aged and things have happened. And yeah, yeah, I don't know it's a weird one, isn't it Time? I always find time's a bit of a funny thing.

Chris: 1:06:58

We found it weird one, isn't it time? I always find time's a bit of a funny thing.

Chris: 1:07:03

we found it weird, we yeah, it was we were speaking to friends about it on well two nights ago who have children, about the passage of time, and to me it feels like not having some of the society or societal norms for the passage of time, children being the biggest one that you start to measure your life by the stages of, I guess, pregnancy, childbirth, right through to driving tests, becoming 18, all that sort of stuff you can measure and look back and just see through them how life has progressed. But for me it does feel more like two or three, four years into our marriage things sort of paused like we were waiting for the next well, what happens next? And we haven't unpaused it yet. We're still wondering what happens next.

Claire: 1:07:50

Yeah, that's what we were trying to. I try to explain to people sometimes it's people think, I think, when they've got children, that not having children just looks like their life before children and it was like, oh, you know, freedom, money, all this, all the, all the good stuff they don't have anymore. They kind of see, and it's trying to explain that actually it's not. You don't get stuck in that bit. You get stuck in the bit where you decided to have children or you wanted something more out of life and so you thought let's do this, we're ready for something else, we're ready for a new adventure, ready for you know. Admittedly, some people get children without thinking about it or planning it, but most people get to a stage where they think like, okay, now we're ready. Now that's where you get paused, I'm ready for something new. But it just never comes Without thinking about it. Subconsciously you've got in your head things that you expect to be doing at some point For your child to start driving, for your child to go to university, maybe or get a job, for your child to meet somebody, for them to get married, for them to have their own children, for you to become a grandparent. That is subconsciously there and we know that's there, because if you speak to people who lose a child, all of that suddenly goes away and that's one of the losses the future that you thought you had has suddenly been wiped completely blank. So that is there without thinking about it. And so to think you know, when you don't have children, none of that is there. It's endless between now and death. You don't know what's going to happen unless you actually make a massive decision or a choice. Let's move house to another country, let's do this or that. There's nothing. You might see a bit of job progression, but between you maybe you'll get more pets or different pets, or maybe nieces and nephews will have children, but there's no path there. And I think that's what's tricky and I think it's really hard to explain to people who have got a rough idea in the back of their head, even though they know that might not all happen. You know, I don't think everyone thinks that's going to happen for them, because they know what life is like, but it is difficult having that nothingness I is like, but it's difficult having that nothingness.

Claire: 1:09:41

I remember when I worked for an artist. I was sort of trying to describe why, in some ways, we had didn't have children, and it seemed like we could do anything we wanted and that should be exciting. Why wasn't it exciting? And he said to me it's like when I put people in the art classes who haven't done art and stuff before I sit them down in front of a blank canvas and he says most of you, most people will tell me that's terrifying.

Claire: 1:09:58

Like at the beginning, that's the hardest thing, until they start because, yes, there's endless possibilities, but you also have no clue what to do or where to start. And that really helped me, because I was like, yes, a blank canvas, it's not always exciting. Sometimes it's terrifying because there's just too much, too many options. You just don't know where to go with it or what to do. So I think that's's what it's like. So that's kind of you know. Even now we're like, oh, we've reached 20 years of marriage, great. And I'll say to you but what now? What's the next thing? We look towards 25 years, okay, great, but what's after that? So I'm hoping at some point we'll start to see something coming for us, whether that's job or whatever. But yeah, it's, it's a tricky one looking forward another 20 years.

Chris: 1:10:45

How similar or different do you think our uzzie's will be if we have the blessing of another 20 years of life together?

Claire: 1:10:57

crumbs yeah I, I think I'd be surprised if mine changed that. The main topics. I think underneath each one it would have shifted and moved and mean something a bit different to me. But I think the main things will be pretty similar or I'll be borrowing them off your list okay, constant communication, real respect, selfless sacrifice, fantastic friendship and love, love love, love. That's why I had to come at the end. What were yours?

Chris: 1:11:23

desire improvement. Love works, humble yourself, invest generously and share fully nice.

Claire: 1:11:32

Do you think yours will have changed?

Chris: 1:11:33

I hope not. I think there are areas there are 10 areas that I want to keep working at and never stopping that work. I don't want to coast at any stage. I want to keep working and enjoying the fruit of that labour because it's brilliant.

Claire: 1:11:51

Amen, mr Sands.

Chris: 1:11:54

The respect.

Claire: 1:11:56

Thank you, thank you, right, yeah, so anyway, I think that's all we've got to say, really, but I do know, I am aware that what we're talking about here can be quite hard for some people If you don't have a marriage. If you're in a marriage, that's really hard, or maybe you'd long to have some of these things we're talking about, but you don't have them. So I just want to remind you that we're big believers in hope and that people can change. And I do think this is a bit like grief. It's not easy, it's not fun. I mean, we've talked about these lovely things. What we haven't talked about is the five hardest things of being in our marriage. What's been the toughest stuff? There's a lot of other stuff on the other side, just like grief. But we do believe if you work at these things, the rewards can be amazing. So I want to encourage people not to give up in their relationships, not to give up trying to be better. People be in better relationships and don't lose hope, because changes can can happen, and sometimes just making a few changes in yourself can have a massive impact on your relationship, and I've heard people talk about that as well. So, yeah, we just want to acknowledge that for anyone who might have found that a bit difficult to listen to or if you've lost a partner and you would love to have got to 20 years of marriage and you didn't get there.

Claire: 1:13:04

We are totally aware of those kinds of losses as well and we do feel for you in that and we are very um grateful and blessed for the time that we've had together because, doing the podcast, we've especially been made aware that this is not something that everyone gets to do. So, uh, yeah, we don't take that for granted. But, yeah, thank you for listening. Um, everything you might need is on the website if you want to find out more about us. If you're new to us and this is your first episode wow, what a baptism of fire there's more about us in our fertility journey, where we chat like this about being childless. Back in loss number three, and there's our story on the website if you want to read through that, plus all the losses that we're working through.

Claire: 1:13:40

Next episode we're going to be bringing you another loss on our list. I think we've hit number 63, but I might regret saying that out loud because it might be a different number. And, yeah, if you want to celebrate with us with our anniversary, then I'm going to do a shameless plug for my buymeacoffeecom slash the silent y account, because if you want to give back to this podcast or if it's helped you in any way at all, then we would love you to buy me a fancy tea on. Buy me a coffee, because this podcast is just a labor of love. We don't outsource any of it. We don't pay for anyone else to do it. We do it all ourselves. We're desperately trying to keep it ad free so you don't have to listen to adverts, and so, because of that, anyone who supports us is just so key in keeping this going. So a huge thank you to those who support us monthly, because they're the reason you're listening to this now. We are very grateful for them. But if you want to just give us a one-off donation, if you want to buy me a fancy tea or support monthly, you can do that at www. buymeacoffee. com/thesilentwhy and all these links are in the show notes we're not finishing with a quote I forgot

Chris: 1:14:41

I'm sure we can quickly find something on the internet google marriage quotes, that's significant and meaningful to us and holds great value. Yeah, so usually I go to my tim keller, who's written a lovely book called the meaning of marriage.

Claire: 1:14:55

Here we go okay, I just going to read this in one take "when, over the years, someone has seen you at your worst and knows you with all your strengths and flaws, yet commits him or herself to you wholly, it is a consummate experience. To be loved but not known is comforting but superficial. To be known and not loved is our greatest fear. But to be fully known and not loved is our greatest fear. But to be fully known and truly loved is well, a lot like being loved by God. It is what we need more than anything. It liberates us from pretense, humbles us out of our self-righteousness and fortifies us for any difficulty life can throw at us.

Claire: 1:15:36

I thought we should finish with something, but I don't know what.