Loss 60/101: Loss in happy life transitions: Bex Eyles

#121. Go on, be honest, can you understand why someone who's getting remarried, or celebrating a miracle pregnancy, or beginning a new job, might be experiencing some unhappiness alongside the cheer?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, exploring whether hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #60 of 101: Loss in happy life transitions

In this episode, we meet Bex Eyles from Berkshire in England. She's a professional counsellor who joined us to talk about the sneaky grief that can weave its way into life’s celebrations.

And we feel it’s important to say that just because grief can show up in these moments it doesn’t mean joy and gratitude aren’t there too. Bex, like so many others, has felt immense happiness and gratitude in her life’s changes, but she’s also honest about the unexpected emotions that surfaced at the same time, and we're really grateful she was happy to explore these with us.

Bex has navigated bereavement, divorce, fertility struggles and loss of time, and opens up about the unexpected emotions like fear, loss and guilt, that came with suddenly being pregnant after believing it might never happen. She talks about the joy, the fear of finally having what she longed for, and how, as a counsellor, she navigated her grief and processed these complex feelings.

Acknowledging the emotions of loss in a joyful life transition doesn’t diminish the happiness or gratitude felt in those moments. Both can coexist, and that’s okay.

For more about Bex visit: www.pineforesttherapies.com

Transcript

00:00:02 Bex

Hi my name's Bex and I'm here to talk about loss and grief that I've experienced during joyful life transitions.

00:00:12 Claire

Welcome to The Silent Why podcast on a mission to uncover 101 different types of loss through the voices of those who have lived them. I'm Claire.

00:00:20 Chris

And I'm Chris and this is lost 60 of 101 and the very first loss episode of 2020.

00:00:26 Chris

Today, we're talking to Bex Eyles, a professional counsellor from Berkshire in England, about the grief that can surprise us as it quietly weaves its way into some of life's more joyful transitions.

00:00:38 Claire

Yes, because even when good things happen, starting a new job, getting married, welcoming a baby.

00:00:44 Claire

Grief can still find a way in to remind us of what we've lost.

00:00:46 Claire

Left behind and just because.

00:00:48 Chris

And just because grief shows up in these moments, it doesn't mean that joy and gratitude aren't.

00:00:52 Chris

Bex, like so many others, has felt immense happiness and gratitude in these moments. But she's also honest about the unexpected emotions that also came up at the same.

00:01:02 Claire

It's something many of us don't always acknowledge, but we all experience it in different ways.

00:01:07 Claire

Like the single friend who hears of a friend's engagement, the couple struggling with infertility as they celebrate a friend's pregnancy, the parent watching their child get married and move out happiness and loss often exists side by side, especially when other people's lives intersect with our own.

00:01:21 Chris

Sometimes we might find both sides of these emotions exist within us. We've heard from people who remarried after losing.

00:01:28 Chris

In a space, feeling overwhelming joy on their wedding day, yet also deep grief, parents who've had a rainbow baby celebrating new life while carrying the pain of a previous loss.

00:01:38 Claire

That's what we wanted to explore with Bex. She's navigated bereavement, divorce, fertility struggles and the loss of time itself.

00:01:45 Chris

And when she found herself happily remarried and then unexpectedly pregnant.

00:01:49 Chris

She was surprised to find that joy wasn't her only feeling.

00:01:52 Bex

It was hard to celebrate because I did have this fear that we were going to miscarry and then when you do start telling people we're so overjoyed for us and and we were as well, we really were.

00:02:07 Bex

But I think I was too scared to celebrate initially. That was really difficult.

00:02:11 Bex

And I felt so guilty about.

00:02:13 Claire

That it opens up about the unexpected emotions that came with suddenly being pregnant after believing it might never happen. The joy, the fear of finally having what she longed for, and how as a councillor, she navigated her grief and processed these complex feelings.

00:02:27 Bex

Dream that you have in life that you desperately want. We've got to be so careful that we don't hang our level of happiness or our level of contentment on whether or not we achieve that dream we can't fix.

00:02:43 Bex

Pain, trauma, hurt loss by achieving the next dream or the next goal. We've got to work through it.

00:02:49 Chris

Once again, we explored the complex nature of grief, the unusual places we can feel loss, and the confusion of feeling loss and gratitude. At the same time.

00:02:59 Claire

This is a deeply personal and sometimes difficult conversation to have, and we feel privileged to explore it with Bex. But before we begin, we want to emphasise something that we and Becks feel strongly about. Acknowledging the emotions of loss in a joyful life transition doesn't diminish the happiness or gratitude felt in those moments.

00:03:17 Claire

Both can coexist, and that's OK.

00:03:19 Bex

Loss can be such a fantastic opportunity.

00:03:22 Bex

To reflect on what you value and what you want to embrace in your life moving forwards, I think love and joy go hand in hand with loss, because if we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and take risks to experience true deep love, joy and intimacy.

00:03:40 Bex

You run the risk of loss. The best things that have come out of my life have been as a result of loss.

00:03:46 Chris

So let's get going. We start off this conversation by asking Becks to tell us a bit about herself.

00:03:55 Bex

So I'm Becks. I live near reading with my husband and little dog Sammy. Typical week for me is I'm a counsellor. I specialise in drug and alcohol addiction but I work with all sorts of different areas. But life is about to change very much because I'm going to be having a baby in a few weeks.

00:04:15 Chris

And so this is I'm recording this week is your last week at work. So lots of emotions, of signing off and we're adding to the emotions now with this conversation.

00:04:20 Bex

Yes.

00:04:24 Chris

So really great to have your time. So thank you for having this chat with us.

00:04:29 Claire

It's an interesting area that we're going to talk to you about because we want to look at loss, but the loss that comes through good transitions like having a baby or getting married, these stages that we have in life, that can be really happy, but also a little bit sad or confusing or other stuff going on. So before we sort of look at the kind of the tension of holding good and bad things together, tell us.

00:04:50 Claire

A little bit about your experience of loss, what kind of experience have you had of loss or grief in your life so?

00:04:55 Bex

So I I've.

00:04:57 Bex

Had some personal losses and and I also experienced loss a lot in my professional work, kind of through counselling clients and that sort of things as well, but personally.

00:05:10 Bex

Probably the most difficult losses I've ever experienced was married before, and unfortunately that marriage ended in a separation and a divorce.

00:05:21 Bex

And we also had fertility issues in that marriage, which we knew about before we were married. I had a medical history that indicated that it was going to be really difficult for me. In fact, I was told I probably would never conceive naturally.

00:05:36 Bex

So went through quite a long journey of infertility.

00:05:41 Bex

See trying lots of different treatment options and we came to a place where we had just started the IVF journey, when at that time it was when the marriage fell apart. So there was a lot of losses involved in that, you know, a loss of marriage.

00:05:58 Bex

As well as the loss of dreams of children, loss of my home, loss of money that I sort of literally my life, everything stopped and I kind of started again.

00:06:09 Bex

Actually one of the most difficult losses, I would say during all of that or for me to process was.

00:06:15 Bex

What I would kind of call a feeling like lost time so that whole journey of meeting my first husband and getting married and trying to have children and it not happening was I think about 12 years. And so then you kind of find yourself in this position and you think, Oh my gosh, if I just wasted 12 years, you know, that's how it feels.

00:06:36 Bex

And so I kind of felt like I'd lost lost life, really. And I was still very, very young. So, yeah, that's the kind of some of the personal losses. And also at the same time of that, there was, we lost my grandma, my mum's mum, and that was a really difficult passing.

00:06:54 Bex

Especially from my mum. So there was kind of loss going on in the family as well at the same time.

00:06:58 Claire

It's interesting that you mentioned those losses because that's exactly the sort of thing we want to explore in the podcast, not just bereavements, but other things like divorce and not having children and loss of time that people go through. But not everyone recognises them as losses. So not everybody allows them. Maybe the time they need to be grieved.

00:07:14 Claire

Do you think that you recognise them as lost? Did you grieve them? Did you grieve? Well, if you did?

00:07:19 Claire

Think some of.

00:07:20 Bex

Them you are so acutely aware that there is a loss some, some of it not so much.

00:07:27 Bex

One of the really strange things about infertility or desiring children and it not happening is you, you don't actually know what you're grieving.

00:07:37 Bex

You're grieving the loss of a dream and it's a dream that you imagine that you, you know, you look at people around you and what they're experiencing, but you don't actually know what you're missing out on. So I I knew that that.

00:07:51 Bex

A loss.

00:07:53 Bex

But to see it as a loss, that kind of requires grieving in the same way it took me a while to see that.

00:08:00 Chris

All the while going through this show, going into work and doing a job where you're trying to help people that are struggling, that are themselves, you know, having lost elements of themselves, their coping mechanisms, whatever it may be, you did, you did say that that, you know, that was quite tough. What what are some of the areas at work as well that could have been the most sort of draining or require the most.

00:08:21 Chris

Very needy situations.

00:08:22 Bex

It was hard, but I also I feel actually quite blessed to have been working where I was at the time I was working in a rehab for men, residential rehab for men, overcoming drug and alcohol addiction.

00:08:38 Bex

Very demanding environment, very difficult work.

00:08:42 Bex

But the staff and the residents, you know, we did talk about very much being a family in a community, so it was supportive in terms of people. I made the decision to tell people what was going on because I thought actually people can see, she's obviously going through something so. And I really believe, actually, that it is very important.

00:09:04 Bex

Talking to people about honesty and authenticity and genuineness like we, you've got to model.

00:09:09 Bex

So I told people what was going on and actually initially I was OK.

00:09:14 Bex

Because quite often you know with with loss and grief you have that, that shock, that numbness at the beginning. And so I I spoke to my manager at the time and I said I'm actually doing OK, but I know there'll come a time.

00:09:30 Bex

Where I will it will hit me and when that's approaching, can we have another discussion? And so I did. I took a little bit of a step back, took some time out because I I knew I needed to at that point because when you're kind of going through the ringer yourself.

00:09:45 Bex

You haven't really got what you need to give to other people.

00:09:49 Bex

So it was difficult, but actually I could have been in a work setting where people don't talk about mental health, they don't understand mental health and that I think that would have been a whole lot harder.

00:10:01 Chris

Can I ask how you knew when the time came to take that step back? What? What was sort of the symptoms physically, emotionally. How did you feel to get to that point that OK. Yeah. Now I'm not doing OK what changed?

00:10:13

That's a.

00:10:14 Bex

Really good question.

00:10:16 Bex

So as a counsellor, the most important thing in counselling is that you are wholly present with your client.

00:10:24 Bex

And sometimes clients talk about things and it brings stuff up for you and that's not a problem. You're trained as a counsellor to be able to quickly recognise that, park it and basically think.

00:10:39 Bex

Either that's not relevant here and it disappears out your mind, or oh, I might need to come back to that later.

00:10:46 Bex

And I knew that if I started to feel that I wasn't able to be wholly present, that would be a massive warning sign. I didn't get to that point, but I could see that because.

00:11:01 Bex

I was getting to a place of feeling very exhausted, quite mentally and emotionally worn down over a period of time.

00:11:13 Bex

I started to sort of see little hints of that, and I thought I'm going to stop now because I've seen councillors leave it too long. Where you've you you keep trying and then you're then you're in burnout and and then the, you know, the recovery is so much worse.

00:11:31 Bex

So I spoke to my clinical supervisor and I said to her, I think.

00:11:36

Give.

00:11:36 Bex

It much longer. I will stop being able to be for wholly present for my clients, and now is probably the time to start.

00:11:43 Bex

And actually when I did, when you allow yourself to stop, that's really probably when most of the symptoms, so to speak, hit me I where you just I took a few weeks off work and and I remember literally an achievement was.

00:11:58 Bex

Just sort of waking up and getting through the day because your body just suddenly shuts down, doesn't it? It just stops because you've let it.

00:12:06 Bex

Stop and you know and you just exhausted by that point.

00:12:10 Claire

So if we look at the good transitions that you've had that have brought about more loss, it's a really interesting subject and some people are going to understand this straight away because I've had podcast guests already that have spoke about it and some people are not going to understand this at all until they really hear you speaking about what it's like. So because you've been through all that and you're able to.

00:12:28 Claire

The signs, you know what loss looks like? Is that why you recognised it in the good transitions that were happening? Or was it something completely different that alerted you to the fact that actually this is a really happy thing I'm going through, but I've got lost there as well and maybe just tell us what those transitions actually were.

00:12:44 Bex

I think being a counsellor helps.

00:12:48 Bex

Because by the time I was going through these happier transitions prior to that, I had developed good self-awareness which you need to have so.

00:12:57 Bex

I am very quick at spotting what I think and feel and being able to reflect on that, but some of it did completely catch me off guard.

00:13:05 Bex

And that's because I am human. You know, councillors aren't like these, like beings that seem to just be able to process everything perfectly. So I there were certain things that I kind of thought right. I need to prepare for.

00:13:21 Bex

When I found myself.

00:13:24 Bex

Single and thinking, you know, I don't know if I will get another chance to be in a relationship. Marry. I very much thought I will never get the chance to have children.

00:13:35 Bex

I knew.

00:13:36 Bex

You that if those opportunities came up.

00:13:39 Bex

Kind of thought it might freak me out a little bit because I might be like, oh, wait, is this all going to go wrong again? Can I trust that this is going to last? Can I trust that this is right is a good decision?

00:13:53 Bex

So yes, some of it I kind of thought I need to prepare for that, but then other parts, so like when.

00:14:02 Bex

My now husband and I fell pregnant earlier this year.

00:14:07 Bex

And the journey we've sort of been on in that pregnancy.

00:14:11 Bex

I wasn't expecting to find it as difficult as I did. The kind of this joyful, amazing. Literally what feels like a miracle.

00:14:23 Bex

I probably wasn't fully prepared for how difficult I was going to find that.

00:14:27 Claire

Explain a bit about why it's difficult. What is it that makes it hard? Where is their loss involved?

00:14:32 Bex

So some of this might sound really naive, but I had never thought about what being pregnant would feel like.

00:14:42 Bex

I think that was probably self protection during all of the fertility treatment where you keep going to the hospital for these scans and you're looking at an empty womb and you're thinking, Oh well, yeah, OK, that's another failed attempt.

00:14:56 Bex

So I I I guess I to protect myself, I'd never sort of thought what it would feel like. And also I had thought, well, if I ever do get to have a baby and children, obviously life completely changes. I've seen all of my friends go through.

00:15:14 Bex

You know, that goes without saying, doesn't it? You bring a life into the world and your life completely changes.

00:15:20 Bex

What I hadn't thought about is that actually your life completely changes the minute you get that positive test. And the other thing with that as well, I think because because I'd been on my, I'm quite happy to say my age. I'm now 38. I've been on my own for a while. I had got.

00:15:39 Bex

Established my routine established.

00:15:40 Bex

Finished one of the things that I went through the divorce that I when I was coming out of the other side was I was like I have got an amazing opportunity here to for the next chapter to write my life how I want it to be. You know to do the things that.

00:15:53 Bex

To do set all these goals, these dreams so I can just go out and do it. I don't have any commitments. So when I became pregnant.

00:16:01 Bex

And physically, mentally and emotionally, everything in my body was changing all at once. My lifestyle completely was completely interrupted.

00:16:11 Bex

I'm a incredibly active, adventurous person. I like going out, doing lots of different things, and I couldn't do any of it. And within that I lost my social network during the week. I'd be doing lots of things with friends that I'd made to the gym actually kind of social thing. So I I was missing out socially. I was missing out physically.

00:16:33 Bex

The exercise and activity that I used to do was great for my mental health. I hadn't realised how dependent I was on that for my mental health.

00:16:41 Bex

So I lost kind of.

00:16:45 Bex

And also at the same time I just before I found out I was pregnant, I had resigned from a part time job that I had, which was a very difficult decision for me to make to to lose that job. So my kind of weekly routine literally disappeared overnight.

00:17:02 Bex

And that might not sound like a big deal, you know, So what? OK, you can't can't go for as much runs or you can't, you know, you want. You were going to leave that job anyway.

00:17:12 Bex

When there's.

00:17:13 Bex

Lots of losses and lots of different layers and that loss going on at once.

00:17:18 Bex

Suddenly I was like, I'm not going out. I'm not seeing people and it and it. And then on top of that, you add in like all of the lovely nausea that you get.

00:17:29 Bex

And the wonderful hormones because of my medical history with the infertility, like my hormone I've got, I have always had issues with hormones that it just went mental in the pregnancy and I I just didn't know how to kind of handle all of that at once.

00:17:47 Bex

Basically.

00:17:48 Bex

And I sort of was thinking, you know, when you have a baby, you expect all of that, you expect everything you expect to not work. You expect to not socialise. You expect to not.

00:17:57 Bex

Go out on your paddle board or your canoe, or go and climb a mountain, which is what you used to do. You expect that and I haven't expected it, so maybe that sounds naive, but it.

00:18:05 Bex

It caught.

00:18:05 Chris

Me off guard and then with that in mind, what was your experience of, I guess to to use the word miracle like you said, after having a period of time with just lots of trauma and lots going?

00:18:18 Chris

You are with this miraculous turn around.

00:18:20 Chris

And I'm I'm I'm guessing assuming that there was a level of expectation around you of, you know, 100% celebration, jubilation sort of cheer up. This is wonderful news. Did you feel pressure to, you know, have to put on a this is, yeah, under the surface I might be feeling one way. But of course I'm delighted. Or did you feel any paranoia that people might think you're just.

00:18:21

Yeah.

00:18:41 Chris

Before, you just need to be celebrating this more what?

00:18:44 Chris

It was like.

00:18:46 Bex

It was so odd. So my husband and I had been on a holiday. We'd been to lanzarotti not knowing that I would have been a few weeks pregnant, and when we got back.

00:19:00 Bex

I basically it sounds so bizarre, but I had this dream that I was pregnant and I just thought, oh, I've had dreams like that before. But this felt very, very different. I woke up and I strongly believed something in my body has changed.

00:19:15 Bex

And my husband was about to be going to San Francisco on a work trip.

00:19:21 Bex

For a week and I said to him, I didn't tell him about the dream, so I thought he's going to think I'm absolutely nuts. But I said to him, I think I'd like to do a pregnancy test before you go away because this I this is going to sound ridiculous, but something feels different.

00:19:28 Bex

I.

00:19:36 Bex

So he's packing his suitcase. I'm taking him to Heathrow in an hour's time. I'm in the bathroom doing a pregnancy test comes up positive, and I can't say a word. I I literally was like.

00:19:48 Bex

Shocked when I called him in and I just showed it to him and.

00:19:54 Bex

I could feel excitement initially bubbling up.

00:19:59 Bex

But this massive fear of admitting it because I just thought, well, it wasn't meant to be this easy. I thought we were going to be going.

00:20:08 Bex

IVF. I couldn't say a word. Fortunately, he was like.

00:20:11 Bex

Would you want me to go down the shop and get a second test? So I.

00:20:14 Bex

Yeah. Yeah. Please. Please. So he goes and does that comes back. That's positive. And then we're literally like, right, well, you better finish packing. You packing your bag. I go drop him off at Heathrow. We have a cuddle and a kiss goodbye. Both been like.

00:20:29 Bex

Don't really want you to go, but have a nice trip and then he's gone. And then I'm sat at.

00:20:33 Bex

Like I.

00:20:34 Bex

Don't know what to do with this.

00:20:36 Chris

Staring at staring at to pregnancy tests.

00:20:39 Bex

Yeah, yeah. So we we'd agreed that we would both tell a person eat person.

00:20:45 Bex

For support.

00:20:46 Bex

I contacted my sister and I just said.

00:20:48 Bex

Her I just need.

00:20:50 Bex

No, but it was hard to celebrate because we agreed that that first trimester we were not going to tell people like a lot of couples do because I did have this fear that we were going to miscarry. I thought, well, I've always had health problems.

00:21:06 Bex

It was like this, constantly trying to keep a lid on the excitement and then when you do start telling people, especially people that knew us well, new knew my history.

00:21:18 Bex

Was so overjoyed for us.

00:21:20 Bex

And and we were as well, we really, really were. But I think this fear of.

00:21:26 Bex

This is a dream that I've had for such a long time. I never thought would materialise. I was too scared to celebrate initially and that was, yeah, that that was really difficult and I felt so guilty about that. I felt so guilty at the time.

00:21:42 Bex

Because I know what it's like to be in the infertility boat.

00:21:48 Bex

And I know when I was in that position, it can be really hard when people fall pregnant and and I and I felt really guilty. I thought I should be, should be dancing on the ceiling about this. But actually, you know, that was something that I thought I worked through and, you know, kind of got into a much better place with so.

00:22:10 Bex

Yeah. I mean, it's even now 35 weeks. It's kind of like.

00:22:15 Bex

My gosh, how?

00:22:16 Bex

Did we get here? It's crazy.

00:22:18 Claire

There is such a mix in the world, especially when you've been in the infertility boat, like you said, of joy and grief at these moments. But usually it's for other people. So you know, either you're the one that's not pregnant and someone is, so it makes you a bit sad or you're the one that is pregnant and you've got to tell someone.

00:22:34 Claire

Can't get pregnant or hasn't been pregnant that you are, and that can be very difficult for friendships if you're close because you don't have.

00:22:40 Claire

Children. So I'm guessing that's quite difficult, but I remember we went on to a conference that was for people going through infertility. And one of the speakers there said a statement that didn't make much sense to me at the time. But I can see it more now having experienced it with through other people more.

00:22:55 Claire

That that a baby wasn't the cure to the grief of infertility. And at the time you think, well, that seems crazy. But that's all that anybody here is after, really. But I've seen it so many times that people find there is that grief. And when you get the baby because life can get so difficult physically and you know, everything changes.

00:23:11 Claire

It doesn't take away. It doesn't solve that grief instantly that you couldn't have them. So there's always a lot of emotions and and turmoil. Did you find that difficult and did you have friends that you had to tell that you knew it was going?

00:23:22 Claire

Be difficult for them to hear the news.

00:23:24 Bex

Yeah, I I did. I had one friend in particular who I had a few friends that have either net, childless and have decided to not continue down that journey or few friends that are childless and are still looking into options. But I had one friend in particular.

00:23:43 Bex

Her and her husband, tragically a few years ago, experienced an unexpected still birth at full term, and I was particularly concerned about having that conversation with her. I got myself a little bit tied up and not sober it, and then I just suddenly thought.

00:24:01 Bex

Well, you know, you've had bad experience of infertility. How did you want people to talk to you? And actually the bottom line is you just want people to sensitively take you to one side and tell you. So I did tell her separately.

00:24:16 Bex

And she was genuinely very, very thrilled because.

00:24:20 Bex

She was like, you know, I know the journey that you've been on and that conversation actually was fine. You know, I needn't have kind of worried about it as much as.

00:24:29 Bex

But yeah, I do agree with you that you know, not just with having a baby, but any dream that you have in life.

00:24:38 Bex

That you desperately want. We've got to be so careful that we.

00:24:42 Bex

Don't hang our level of happiness or our level of contentment on whether or not we achieve that dream.

00:24:51 Bex

Because you can get there. And actually, if you've got other unresolved hurt, pain, grief, loss, like you don't suddenly feel a million times better. It doesn't just solve things and.

00:25:04 Bex

I don't think it's particularly a coincidence that my journey of falling pregnant when I did actually came at a time in my life after a few years where I was kind of like, yes, I would. I would love a family.

00:25:22 Bex

But I'd I'd accepted life where it was, and I remember saying to friends, my husband and I haven't been married very long, and I remember having conversations with him and saying to my friends we will have a good life.

00:25:37 Bex

I know we will have a good life. There'll be pain there if we don't get to have children. I know that. But I think because I had, I'd managed to get away from that place of thinking unless I have a family. My life's not going to feel complete unless I get to have this baby.

00:25:53 Bex

I'm not going to feel fulfilled. I got into that place of being like, actually we will be OK, you know, we'll we will be OK. So yeah, I think it's it's hard not to kind of hang on to a dream, isn't it? It's hard not to think.

00:26:09 Bex

If I can get that, if I can get that.

00:26:11 Bex

That it's so much harder to try and be content in present life and I and I. Yeah, I don't want to kind of say this lightly or glibly just because, you know, because people might be listening to be like, well, of course you can say that you're pregnant now.

00:26:26 Bex

I I don't mean that lightly.

00:26:29 Bex

But yeah, we can't fix pain, trauma, hurt loss by achieving the next dream or the next goal. We've got to work through.

00:26:38 Chris

And working through it for you to come back to sort of early in the chat, there's been multiple layers of, you know, recognising pain and loss, whether it be time, money, previous marriage, the whole sort of in facility, IVF story family.

00:26:54 Chris

Losses as well. Bereavement. Have you found sort of echoes of what you described with the pregnancy? Have you found echoes of that into other layers as well, like things like you mentioned time?

00:27:05 Chris

I could certainly look back on our story and just think, you know, I'm mid 40s now, but much of my 30s I could just write off because it just felt like 10 years of I didn't know what was going on. And you know, I'm a very proactive love to achieve love, to be busy. And I look back and just think for me it feels like such a shame that I spent that decade.

00:27:24 Chris

Just not really feeling like I was enjoying living. I mean, I don't mean that. I was loving living. I enjoy life. But it's like, what a shame to have.

00:27:32 Chris

Where I don't really look at it like I've achieved very much. Others would say. Of course you've achieved a lot, doesn't feel like it. I feel like I'm in the same position, age 40 as I was aged 30 and 10 years has gone by. So what, yeah, what's it been like just experiencing feeling?

00:27:49 Chris

That processing in the wider layers of other losses as well.

00:27:53 Bex

Yeah, I I can totally relate to that. I think I look at my 20s in that way and I I was quite angry.

00:28:00 Bex

When initially when I was looking at.

00:28:03

Oh, you know.

00:28:04 Bex

I've wasted and lost in my 20s or 20s are meant to be the best time of your life.

00:28:08 Bex

You know.

00:28:09 Bex

You've come out of uni and you've got all this possibility in front of you and I I looked at that back on that decade.

00:28:16 Bex

As well, that was a bit of a shambles and that was pretty awful actually. And I think with getting remarried and I just, the house is going to sound bit bit soppy bit cliche, but I'm so blessed with my husband.

00:28:32 Bex

We have a fantastic relationship.

00:28:36 Bex

And we are a partnership. We we very much you know we talk about being a team sometimes. I'm like, oh, this this sounds a little bit kind of corny, maybe a little bit American esque like you know, how can we be more of a team and all this sort of thing, but we talk about being a partnership.

00:28:52 Bex

And so sometimes, you know, when once we'd gone through the dating and I, you know, we knew our relationship was serious and then we got engaged. We got married that as well kind of stirred up a bit of anger and frustration and hurt.

00:29:07 Bex

My 20s because I was like, I could have had this. Then what was I doing and.

00:29:13 Bex

Why? Why didn't I have this before in the like the why? Questions that sometimes can come up when you're processing loss. A lot of those are coming up for me and you know, again now like I know 38 isn't, I'm not the oldest woman to have a baby. But there was a time where doctors were telling me that once you're 35 and over, you're you're a geriatric mother.

00:29:32 Bex

And so and so I was hearing these things of like, am I going to be stood at the school gates looking like?

00:29:39 Chris

Well, sad. Sad. The schoolgates. Yeah, too old stand.

00:29:41

Yes.

00:29:43 Bex

Yeah, exactly.

00:29:44 Bex

I can't stand.

00:29:46 Bex

For the kids. So I think grieving time I've come to realise that if you are in a place where you feel that you are grieving time, I actually think that's one of the hardest losses to move through because you can't get back.

00:30:01 Bex

You know, whether it's your 20s, your 30s, forties, 50s, whatever it is. But you know, it is about trying to get to a place where.

00:30:09 Bex

I I.

00:30:09 Bex

Look back at my 20s now and think that was a waste of life or a wasted decade. I don't. I don't feel like that now.

00:30:17 Bex

But I'm aware that actually it took me quite a lot of processing to get to that.

00:30:22 Claire

Yeah, you mentioned the why questions there and we asked most of our guests how was that question kind of come into your experience? Has it been something that's haunted you? Has it been something you've never asked? Have you had to answer it? Have you had to let it go unanswered? So what were the why questions that were coming up for you and how have you got to that point of accepting that that wasn't your 20s, they weren't what you wanted them to be? Do you think you have come to?

00:30:43 Claire

Way you can accept that and how did you?

00:30:46 Bex

I think I have accepted it. I do have moments where you know, occasionally it gets a bit triggered, which I think is really normal. I don't think when you process a major loss.

00:31:01 Bex

You know, sometimes I think we can talk about dealing with it and having healed from it and I don't think.

00:31:06 Bex

Means this never affects me ever again. I think that's actually really unhealthy and unrealistic belief that we can.

00:31:12 Bex

Can have. I think what happens is you get to a place where it doesn't dominate things as much, and you find a new way of living. And sometimes things happen that maybe we trigger it so it does crop up sometimes.

00:31:28 Bex

But it doesn't hold the pain or the weight that it used to. I mean, I had at times some of the why questions that came into my mind. I remember really berating myself because I remember thinking this is this is disgraceful and disgusting that I'm thinking these things but.

00:31:42 Bex

You know, let's be honest, loss can take you to really dark places. And when I was trying for a baby and it wasn't happening. So I've worked in drug and alcohol services my whole working career. I've worked in prisons, I've worked in Community drug services as well as rehab and.

00:32:02 Bex

You see a lot of. I've seen a lot of the dark side of life. I've seen a lot of horrendously traumatic things, and I've seen a lot of children be taken away from their parents.

00:32:13 Bex

And I've worked with a lot of adults who were taken away as children from their parents.

00:32:18 Bex

And some of the why questions that were coming up for me at that time like they felt horrible. I was thinking why on this planet has this person been able to have a baby that they have abused in awful ways?

00:32:33 Bex

To the point where that child's been taken away from them. And yet here I am, feeling like I've got a lot of love to give and it's not happening. And some of the why questions at that time were they were horrible, though they felt horrible.

00:32:47 Bex

And quite judgmental and critical. And you know, you might be out and about and see somebody call their child something horrendous and you think, you know, at the time you'd be like, you shouldn't be allowed to have that child. You know why, why why? And all this sort of thing. So there there was that side of things.

00:33:06 Bex

But I I also.

00:33:07 Bex

For me, something that really helped was I've always had beliefs in that each of us have got meaning and purpose, but there's meaning and purpose greater than ourselves.

00:33:21 Bex

And when I was going through the divorce, it was it was so painful. But I remember thinking, I'm shocked that this has happened. I never thought that this would happen to me and not in a million.

00:33:35 Bex

But I didn't ask why so much because I thought well.

00:33:39 Bex

This is probably when I get through this and I come out the other side. This is probably going to make me a better person. It's probably going to strengthen my character.

00:33:47 Bex

And it's probably going to make me a better.

00:33:50 Bex

And so I almost had ay and a sense of purpose from thinking well, I actually believe that this is going to create something really good. Really good for me so.

00:34:02 Bex

Sometimes I had the why questions and other times I was like I don't need to ask why, because I I believe that something better is going to come out.

00:34:09 Chris

Of this? Yeah, really interesting to hear that seems you seem to have a really unique ability to.

00:34:17 Chris

Maybe that's the councillor in you to be able to the sort of analysing assess.

00:34:21 Chris

I think with with that role with that job, because there's there's two things that it makes me think of. 1 is perspective and one is comparison. So often there's this recurring theme when we speak to people through the podcast of, you know, once we got over that feeling that, you know, you're not alone.

00:34:38 Chris

That you're not the only one going through.

00:34:39 Chris

Helped, so I'm I'm guessing having done the job and worked in the areas and the places that you have, whether it be prisons or in recovery, you must have seen so much that's given you quite a healthy perspective.

00:34:51 Chris

Sometimes comparison can be unhealthy if you're comparing your story with somebody else's. Sometimes that can be unhealthy. So.

00:34:58 Chris

Yeah. How? How has it helped or hindered at times to have that perspective of working with people that are quite broken in order to help you work out your own circumstance?

00:35:08 Bex

It's helped in that I've worked with a lot of people who have had very, very traumatic lives.

00:35:17 Bex

Both in prison and in the rehab I've worked with people that have served life sentences that you know.

00:35:25 Bex

Done. What society would say are unforgivable things.

00:35:31 Bex

And also, maybe they've had unforgivable things done to them as well.

00:35:35 Bex

You know I can't count the number of people I've seen in that situation who have genuinely turned their lives around, and that helped me and massively encouraged me.

00:35:47 Bex

I tread carefully because you've talked about comparison and and I I you know it's not that I sit there and I compare myself to them like overtly. But you do say things to yourself like.

00:36:00 Bex

They have had awful things done to them or they've done awful things and they've managed to come out the other side and that has encouraged me to make me think, well, the divorce and the infertility and then the how scared I was to trust.

00:36:15 Bex

That the remarriage and this pregnancy and everything was.

00:36:18 Bex

Going to be OK was really hard. But wait, if this person that's just come out of prison for 20 years has managed to turn their life around.

00:36:27 Bex

Then I think I can as well.

00:36:30 Bex

So that was encouraging and but at the same time, I mean you mentioned about the kind of the counselling side of things. Yeah, I've got a great ability to be able to reflect process, look at different perspectives and that sort of thing. Sometimes it's flipping annoying.

00:36:48 Bex

And you sort of wish, oh, this. I'd quite like to have.

00:36:51 Bex

Break from being.

00:36:52 Bex

To do that, and sometimes I look at people and I think, oh, sometimes ignorance can be bliss and that, you know, maybe it would be better to not be able to, like, not to have to kind of go through all this big rule of processing and reflecting and understanding. And then. And I'm not a quick processor, I never have been, I've always been.

00:37:09 Bex

That I need time to reflect and I I need to talk out loud to people. I'm an external processor, so yeah, my support network were, yeah, absolutely incredible.

00:37:20 Bex

So the comparison side of things is really difficult and actually there one thing that was very unhelpful, which comes up occasionally is when you say I should be able to deal with this Cos I'm a counsellor. I mean, that is so all the people I know that are counsellors, we've we talk about this and say how damaging that can be.

00:37:41 Bex

Because like I said to you earlier, yeah, you're a councillor, but you're a human. You're a human, and you're allowed to not know how to process something.

00:37:51 Claire

When you're going through the good transitions, so you've remarried, you've got a baby on the way, but you're still feeling these pain points and this loss loss.

00:38:00 Claire

It's like quite a lonely experience because I'm guessing it's not something that's easy to voice to everybody because not everyone would understand.

00:38:08 Bex

It definitely can feel lonely, and I'm often aware of.

00:38:15 Bex

You know, I'm not going to talk to clients about this sort of thing, for example.

00:38:21 Bex

It's not a coincidence that.

00:38:24 Bex

You know where we talked about recording this? I wanted to record it when I was wrapping up my work, so I've got a private counselling practise that.

00:38:33 Bex

Finishing with all of my clients this week and then I'll be taking a year off for maternity.

00:38:39 Bex

Because obviously there this this is going out in the public sphere and I've got to think about the fact that one of those clients may stumble across this on the Internet and hear it. So certainly talking about things in a public forum, you have to think really carefully about as a councillor, you know what you put out there.

00:38:56 Bex

But with kind of my friends and family, I mean I I've got such good and close friendships. I I haven't felt lonely in terms of if I've wanted to have a space to talk about it, I can.

00:39:08 Bex

And the person that I can talk to, easiestly and most freely about anything, is my husband and he's brilliant. He deserves a medal, to be honest, because he knows that I am a slow external processor. And actually he knows that if he just gives me a bit of space.

00:39:27 Bex

To offload, to cry, to talk, to express.

00:39:30 Bex

Doesn't actually have to do anything other than listen. He doesn't have to try and fix anything because he knows that that's not what I'm asking for what I need.

00:39:39 Bex

So yeah, it it. Sometimes it can feel lonely and it tends to feel lonely if you fall into that trap of that awful thing I said about why I'm a counsellor and I should be able to know how to do this, that's when it can feel lonely. But I try and challenge that and just be like, no, I need to to run and offload and express.

00:40:00 Bex

Anybody else and just be kind of?

00:40:02 Bex

Proactive at making sure that I do that.

00:40:05 Claire

What would you say to people who are listening and who have gone through something similar? Something good's happened to them, but it has also brought a lot of pain or loss with it and they haven't got people around who would understand that there's that expectation. Well, this has happened for you now. This is good. So you should just be looking forward and be happy.

00:40:20 Claire

Is there anything that you can say to help them process that? Is there a way that they can maybe allow themselves to feel it?

00:40:25 Bex

To me, the most important thing ever is, you know, if you're connecting with somebody that's in that space is.

00:40:34 Bex

To validate and normalise that you know be with them and you know you just said there that you know some of the things that people say is oh, but this is what you wanted. This is amazing, you know? And I loved the episode on your podcast with Jodie Day when she talks about disenfranchised grief, which is.

00:40:53 Bex

When you you might share or you might say something about a loss that you're experiencing and it's met with basically a response that says that denies it, minimises it says you shouldn't have that.

00:41:05 Bex

And so actually, if we can say to people, do you know what, it's really normal to be so excited and joyful about something, but also feeling a real sense of loss and terror and fear at the same time, I I met this lady. I was out walking the dog.

00:41:22 Bex

Recently she just started chatting to me. I'd never met her before and she was a bit tearful and she said, oh, you have to forgive me. I can't stop crying. My last child's just gone to you off to uni and I can't. I'm not coping and we ended up walking around the field together and.

00:41:39 Bex

Aly.

00:41:40 Bex

You know, and I was, I was trying to say to her that because she was like, you know, I should be happy. Like all my kids have gone off. They've made these great choices. And I was like, yeah, but, you know, you've been a mum for 27 years. When you span the ages of the children.

00:41:55 Bex

And it's the emptiness syndrome and and that's normal. You know, people that are counting down days till they retire and then they get into their retirement and they feel redundant, they feel what's my.

00:42:07 Bex

Purpose. What am I achieving? You know, the more that we can fight against sort of disenfranchised grief and talk to people and say that is normal, that you're feeling a loss amongst the joy and try and help them normalise that.

00:42:22 Bex

Is I just think is one of the most important things we can do to just.

00:42:25 Bex

With people where?

00:42:26 Chris

They are. I want to repackage all that you just said in a very short, succinct way. OK, this is this is going to be fun. What would be? What would be the nicest?

00:42:37 Chris

Most appropriate, sensitive, lovely warm comment.

00:42:42 Chris

That someone could write in your congratulations babies. Here card that I guess that summarises that in a few lines.

00:42:52

Yes.

00:42:52 Claire

That's the sort of thing I'd spend, like, half an hour over with a pen and the paper I really want to get this right.

00:42:57

We have to, we have to go.

00:42:58 Chris

Half an hour you've got about, you've got 10 seconds.

00:43:01

Or do you remember when I?

00:43:02 Bex

Said that, I'm a real slow processor.

00:43:03

Yes.

00:43:04 Chris

We'll add it out the 10 minutes of silence.

00:43:07 Bex

I think.

00:43:08 Bex

I think that captures that essence.

00:43:11 Bex

You know, whatever that whatever the journey holds, lying ahead. Delighted to walk alongside with you in.

00:43:18 Chris

Yeah.

00:43:18 Bex

You know something around that because I was actually quite surprised when we started announcing the pregnancy.

00:43:25 Bex

The vast majority of the people said congratulations, followed by a tirade of negative things, but more that sounded more dramatic than I meant it to be. But things like, oh, congratulations. That's it. Life's over.

00:43:38 Bex

You're never gonna sleep again, you know, or good luck doing XYZ and and.

00:43:44 Bex

And you laugh it off because we all know that. Well, I'll know for sure in a little short while that having a newborn baby is probably you go insane with the lack of sleep at times. But actually after a while.

00:43:59 Bex

Like when so many people are saying that to you, you start to go Oh my goodness like is this, is this a good idea? So I know that that's kind of added a little bit of waffle on to the concise answer.

00:44:10 Bex

Chris, but like.

00:44:11 Chris

No, it's good to know. I'm just. I'm just using some correction fluid on the card to take out the line that was writing, saying, yeah, life life's over for you. No more sleep. Unsubbing. Unscrpping that out now.

00:44:23 Bex

Yeah, don't know about that. Well, I think it's.

00:44:26 Bex

Like we none of us know what life is going to be like when we go into a new chapter. When you're going through a transition.

00:44:33 Bex

I have come to learn in life that I think love and joy go hand in hand with loss. I think the two walk side by side because if we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and take risks to experience true deep love, joy and intimacy.

00:44:50 Bex

You run the risk of loss and those things just go hand in hand. So when we're celebrating new.

00:44:59 Bex

Transitions in life and new chapters, whatever that is, getting married, retiring, coming out of prison, having a baby to just know that people say congratulations.

00:45:13 Bex

And we're here for this journey, whatever that entails. For me, I've I've learnt that to be something that is. Yeah, just really important. And gold dust. Yeah.

00:45:25 Chris

Yeah. Amazing. And Lovejoy, it makes me think of hope as well, that part of this mission of this podcast is we're exploring 101 different types of loss to see, you know, where can hope exist, can hope exist in every type of.

00:45:37 Chris

Have there been any sort of times throughout those different layers that we've spoken about of of grief and loss where you felt completely devoid of hope? And how are you doing now in a sense of rediscovering hope for the future, hope for the next steps, whatever they may contain?

00:45:54 Bex

I did have some moments where I would say I felt very, very hopeless.

00:46:01 Bex

I don't think it ever disappeared completely. It might have gone down to like 1%. I remember a time where so I I got a dog and that's going through the divorce. Best decision I ever made. But he's he's absolutely nuts. But he was the best thing for me.

00:46:20 Bex

And I had. I remember having his day. I'm laughing because you can laugh when you look back but thinking.

00:46:26 Bex

I could fall down the stairs, break my neck and die and not be found for a few days. And someone comes in and there's the dog licking my dead body. You know that sort of like that sort of image of, Oh my gosh, life is hopeless. Like no one's going to even know if I'm dead.

00:46:44 Bex

I had some dark, dark moments, but I don't think I ever lost hope completely, partly because I have people around me that believed in me, but predominantly.

00:46:56 Bex

Because I've got a faith, I've got a Christian faith, and even though I would have dark days feel very low, sometimes ask those why questions.

00:47:06 Bex

I I believed in God and I believed that that it wasn't going to last like that forever and it was going to be OK and I read something at the time I I think by a man called Paul Miller.

00:47:21 Bex

And he talks about that in life. It's really important to be aware of reality but fixed on hope. And I explored that a lot of the time. And I thought, what does that mean for me?

00:47:32 Bex

The reality was life is not great right now. I can't find anywhere to live. I was working for a charity. I was on a very low income and with the dog, you know, a lot of landlords don't accept pets. I couldn't find anywhere to live. I couldn't afford rent by myself.

00:47:50 Bex

I'd as we talked about thought, well, my trend is what a load of poo that was. You know, my reality was I was suffering and I was in pain. But I thought, right, what's being fixed on hope and actually being fixed on hope for me meant.

00:48:03 Bex

Leaning quite heavily on that.

00:48:05 Bex

And and just knowing and trusting that I didn't know what the path ahead was was I had no idea how I was going to get.

00:48:11 Bex

Of.

00:48:11 Bex

And I was going to move on, but I knew I believed it was going to be better. Something was going to be better.

00:48:20 Bex

And that hope was what I kind of hung on to.

00:48:23 Claire

I'm really grateful that got somebody on the podcast speaking about this because I hope that it will sort of help people to remember that just because something happy is happening to somebody, it doesn't mean that it's all great. And I think for myself, because of doing the podcasts and lots of things like that, I'm very aware of that. For example, if someone has lost a partner, if they've died or something and they're getting remarried.

00:48:41 Claire

Married. That's going to bring up grief, you know, during the wedding. That's a complicated process. Same with divorce. Same with somebody having secondary infertility. They might have a baby already, but not be able to have any more. That's a very real grief for some people. And I think these things are they're things that people aren't very comfortable talking about quite often, but they are things we can spot. And for those of us who want to get things right, who want to write in.

00:49:02 Claire

Write message who want to kind of temper our, you know, I hear from people who have become pregnant from the infertility world. Friends will message us and they'll do it in a kind way because they know where we are with our situation and that can be really hard for them. But equally.

00:49:18 Claire

Usually it's quite early days for them or it might not be, but I'm not overly like excited about it with them, partly because I know that things can still go wrong and it's a very fragile journey, especially with those first babies. And you know, I'll temper that a little bit and I hope that if then they need to speak to somebody.

00:49:35 Claire

They find it easier to come to someone like me because I wasn't the one that was going mad with eyes and the best thing ever. You know, that can be hard to approach people who are really, really happy for you sometimes.

00:49:44 Claire

So I hope this is something that's really opened up some thought processes for people around the loss and the grief that can be tied into these really good things. 'cause I do think a lot of people see the good things and think well, there you are, you know, get on with it, you've got everything you want and to a degree.

00:49:59 Claire

There is a level of, you know, needing to be grateful for what we have, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with with pain and loss. And I think we do need to feel that because a lot of people will feel guilty about allowing that into those good moments. But I think if you don't, it will come out somewhere.

00:50:13 Claire

Further down the line, so yeah, definitely because I.

00:50:17 Bex

I felt so guilty when, like I said, I was stepping out of that infertility boat. I thought because I know what it's like and I know you've both spoken about this on your episode about you, but you bond with people when you're childless, and they are. You bond with them and then you know when they get pregnant and they have a children, you're not going to hang out with them.

00:50:37 Bex

Like, you know, life's going to change.

00:50:38 Bex

So you know, you do feel guilty or you can feel guilty about that. But also I think you know, yes, we we want to be sensitive and careful about how we talk to people, how we tell them things, but we also you know we can't spend our lives constantly treading on egg shells thinking oh am I going to say the wrong thing you know and sometimes I say the wrong thing.

00:51:00 Bex

People, we do it but.

00:51:03 Bex

If we can bring it back to that basic of whatever somebody is going through wherever they're at, you can't go wrong. If you just say to them. Oh, just tell me what that's like for you. You can never.

00:51:13 Bex

Wrong with that?

00:51:15 Claire

Yeah, that's great advice. It's always nice to have a few comments or words like that in your back pocket, especially if you do find those conversations too tricky and we all do, you know, I do a podcast on this. I remember sitting next to somebody a while ago who'd lost their husband. My mind was completely blank. So it is, it is hard, it's difficult, but it's nice to have those sorts of things. And that's kind of my goat. You know how you get.

00:51:33 Claire

How you doing? Tell me about it. You can't go wrong. And if they don't want to, then that's fine. You know, it's not personal. They're just not in that place.

00:51:41 Chris

Right. Final Question Time. So Bex wonderful to be able to hear about some of your experience. Thank you for sharing what you have really appreciated that. To finish up with in this conversation, tell us what's your Herman?

00:51:56 Bex

Yes. So I may have cheated a little bit and that it's a 2 parter.

00:52:03 Bex

If you can have a two-part of Herman, but the first thing for me is I think when you find yourself in the acute stage of loss, when it's really painful when you're in that heavy grief.

00:52:17 Bex

My Herman at that stage would be absolutely to give yourself permission to be where you're at, you know, allow yourself to feel what you feel and be where you are.

00:52:28 Bex

And give yourself the permission that you were to other people around you if you were talking to somebody else, you know, you wouldn't say to them. Grow up. Don't be so ridiculous. You know, just let yourself be.

00:52:38 Bex

You are.

00:52:39 Bex

And if you're in an exciting phase of life, it's OK that you can have lost at the same time.

00:52:45 Bex

But the second part would be when you're in that place of adjusting loss can be such a fantastic opportunity to reflect on what you value and what you want to embrace in your life. Moving forwards the best.

00:52:59 Bex

Things that have come out of my life have been as a result of loss. So.

00:53:04 Bex

When you're adapting, you know you don't want to minimise it. You don't want to deny it. But actually you can see this is an opportunity to grasp hold of what really matters to you in life, and how do you want those values to shape your new way of being.

00:53:27 Claire

How often have we heard people say that some of the best things in life have come out of loss? That doesn't mean it's everyone's experience, but if you're open to it, loss can sometimes make way for unexected beauty. Bringing things into your life that you might never have had otherwise.

00:53:42 Claire

And we're pleased to tell you that since we recorded the episode, Bex and her husband have had a lovely baby girl.

00:53:46 Claire

It wasn't the easiest start to motherhood because Beck's had a complicated birth and was then unwell and readmitted to hospital, so she's now having to work through some disappointment at not being able to be there for her daughter in the way she wanted to straight away. But she's very thankful for the help and support she's got around her as she processes this.

00:54:03 Chris

Life is hard. Do you know what? It's complicated being human, so it's great to explore all these different facets of grief in such an honest way. So thank you, Becks, for all you shared. If you want to find out more about her, you can visit her website, pineforesttherapies.com.

00:54:18 Chris

But Please note that the contact me feature has been turned off while she's on maternity leave.

00:54:21 Claire

And for more about us, you can pop over to www.thesilentwhy.com for all you need to know there, or you can find us @thesilentwhypod on most social medias.

00:54:29 Chris

And we want to introduce you to Herman. Maybe you know someone that's going through something happy, but also deep down, you know, they're struggling with some loss there too. It can be hard to know how to express your support at a time like that. So why not send them a Herman.

00:54:41 Claire

Because Herman's aren't just a question that we ask every guest. They're also a heartfelt grief companion that you can send to someone going through a difficult time. Each one is handmade by me, carefully packaged in a beautiful box, and comes with a flyer explaining who Herman is and why he's being sent by gifting a Herman. You're not only offering your loved one a unique and meaningful gesture of support, but you're also helping to sustain the podcast.

00:55:03 Claire

Allowing us to continue sharing conversations about grief and loss, so to send one now visit www.thehermancompany.com and don't worry, all the links are in the show notes so you.

00:55:11 Chris

Don't have to memorise them. Well, we've reached the end of this episode and we'll finish with a quote this time from psychotherapist and writer Francis Weller.

00:55:19 Claire

"The work of the mature person is to carry grief in one hand and gratitude in the other, and to be stretched large by them. How much sorrow can I hold? That's how much gratitude I can give if I carry only grief, I'll bend towards cynicism and despair. If I have only gratitude, I'll become saccharine and I won't develop much compassion for other people's suffering. Grief keeps the heart fluid, and so helps make compassion possible."