Chris & Claire's Chatty Christmas Catch-Up

#118. Struggling with the festive season? You're not alone. As a childless couple, we've been there too, especially when family is at the heart of so many celebrations.

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss, and we're Chris & Claire Sandys, your childless hosts.

Every year we release an episode where we chat about how we're feeling about Christmas. We started with an episode in 2021, talking about how hard it felt and Chris' loss of Christmas spirit, then we did another in 2022 (Finding Comfort at Christmas - which included other podcast guests' experiences), and in 2023 we had 'Chris & Claire chat Christmas and Childlessness', and now here we are again with all things Christmassy, Chrissy and Clairey.

In this episode we chat about how we're finding the lead up to Christmas this year, how we feel about being childless and how that's changed over the years, what our hopes are going forwards, and lots of other stuff that pops up.

Including, a flu-inspired Chris yelling 'Mistletoe' a few times!

All the other Christmas and New Year episodes and blogs we mention, that you might want to check out if you're struggling this year, can be found on one page:

https://www.thesilentwhy.com/christmas

And don't forget, if you're feeling alone, we're always here and we love to hear from you.

Transcript

Chris: 0:02

Hello. Hello.

Claire: 0:03

Here we are again and welcome back to The Silent Why for another Christmas episode of our chatty Christmas catch-up.

Chris: 0:11

Is that what you've called it? Just now. I didn't realise that. Okay, yes, so normally we are searching for, digging into 101 different types of loss. We've reached loss 60, which is coming out early in the new year. But then each Christmas we pause like this for this chatty, what did you call it?

Claire: 0:26

Chatty Christmas catch-up.

Chris: 0:28

There we go. Every Christmas Christmas,

Claire: 0:38

Christmas, Christmas

Chris: 0:59

and not being able to rediscover it and how it made me sad really and then we explored that.

Claire: 1:04

Yeah and I think a lot of people identified with that. Then in 2022 we had an episode called Finding Comfort at Christmas and we reflected on the previous year and how we were feeling since that last episode.

Chris: 1:15

And in that episode, we heard from a number of previous guests, which was great, sharing little short snippets on why Christmas might be hard for them as well.

Claire: 1:22

Yeah, which was really nice to hear. Then last year, 2023, we had the episode Chris and Claire chat Christmas and childlessness. Oh, what's with all the Cs? All the Cs, I know.

Chris: 1:31

It's the alliteration.

Claire: 1:33

Where we once again just reflected on how we were doing with Christmas.

Chris: 1:36

And we were in a much better place.

Claire: 1:38

We were,

Chris: 1:40

except... Well, we somehow ballsed up New Year.

Claire: 1:42

We did. We had a terrible New Year's Eve. So we did an episode where we tried to talk about that, explore what happened. But it was also the same episode where I launched officially the crocheted Hermanns that I sell. Grief companions that have since been posted and travelled all over the world. And that episode is New Year, New Hermann.

Chris: 1:59

So there you go. Lots to go back and listen to if you want to be depressed and follow our journey. with Christmas and New Year as a childless couple. All of these episodes plus Claire's blogs are all in one place this year.

Claire: 2:09

Yeah, we've got one page on the website with all the Christmas stuff on it, which I'd love to say was my idea, but it wasn't. It was the lovely Laurie Alcorn that gave me that idea. But yeah, there's loads of stuff there. All the blogs I've written about finding this season hard, what to do if you feel lonely, how to incorporate single, childless and divorced people into family gatherings and not make them feel like they're in the way. All that kind of stuff. It's all at thesilentmy.com slash Christmas.

Chris: 2:32

So, It's 2024. We're approaching Christmas. Where are we? How are we? What's going on? In fact, can I just start? I think I need to have some sort of safe word. So every time I use the safe word, you can just pause the recording so I can blow my nose because I've got some sort of flu-y thing.

Claire: 2:49

Yeah. That sums up nicely where we are this Christmas. So far, the lead up to Christmas has mostly been illness.

Chris: 2:56

Not very Christmassy. My safe word then is going to be mistletoe.

Claire: 3:00

Mistletoe? Yeah. Okay. That sounds romantic, doesn't it?

Chris: 3:02

Yeah. Because then if you're listening, when I say mistletoe and things pause, you might think, we're having a little kiss.

Claire: 3:09

All right, is that

Chris: 3:10

funny?

Claire: 3:11

Because you'll be emptying your nose. It's not quite the same. Yeah, okay. Yeah, we've had a run of illness, shall we say, but more on your side this year than mine, which was not what we expected. Oh, no,

Chris: 3:21

no, no, hang on, hang on, hang on. Not more on my side. I

Claire: 3:25

think we could say mine has been a steady thing over the last few years.

Chris: 3:29

Yeah, yeah, I felt a bit left out.

Claire: 3:31

We felt like it was going to be mine. But it wasn't. It was yours.

Chris: 3:34

So to mid-November, I picked up the compilobacter bug, which is like a food poisoning, a bacterial thing in the gut. And that took me out of work for two weeks. Didn't really recover from that properly. And then thought I had a flare-up of that earlier this week. I went and saw the GP, got some antibiotics. And that was on... Wednesday, and here we are a few days after that, four or five days later, and it's actually more of a flu thing, I think. It wasn't Camaro. Actually, it was just a separate thing, completely unconnected.

Claire: 4:06

Yeah, that was very unlucky.

Chris: 4:07

Yeah, by the way, dress rehearsal time, mistletoe. Yeah, there we go. That's better. That worked for me. So, where were we? Yeah, health. It's been a rough few weeks.

Claire: 4:19

Yes. I don't think it's been the best run up to Christmas so far, but we're not there yet. We've still got time to salvage it.

Chris: 4:25

Well, yeah, because for me, there's been some real highs. There's been some tension between feeling really excited about Christmas, which is quite unusual for me. And also just the disappointments, I guess, have been like, oh, I wish I was in a better place. Because some of the things that I really enjoy during my week, I've been unable to do. So I haven't been able to cycle to work for what feels like two months. Having a good old strong hoppy IPA on a Friday evening has just been out the question. So the things in my week that are usual little highlights have been out so there's been disappointments there but I've done a work project recording choirs singing Christmas songs and that's been lovely that's got me very Christmassy early on.

Claire: 5:10

Yeah I think you've got more than that and I have this year normally I'm finding ways to feel more Christmassy just before you but you've got a real injection of it with what your work wanted you to do.

Chris: 5:18

Yes yeah certainly with the the feels more so than the foods because you were trying to get me to eat mince pies in November. I'm not having any of that.

Claire: 5:26

Yeah, I don't like wasted food. And you defrosted the mince pies and then just left them on the side and said, I'm not going to eat them, which would have had to mean we binned them. So I had to eat them.

Chris: 5:37

Who gifts mince pies that go out of date before the end of November?

Claire: 5:40

It wasn't about the date. It's a Christmas food. They were frozen. They lasted for ages, but you defrosted them. So that was the issue. Not for us.

Chris: 5:46

They went to an event and nobody ate them because it was too early for mince pies. And so then they've been defrosted.

Claire: 5:52

So I don't think that was me trying to coax you into it. It

Chris: 5:54

felt like you. I

Claire: 5:55

wasn't going to buy any and wait for them. I felt like

Chris: 5:57

you were sad that I wasn't eating mince pies with you in November.

Claire: 6:00

I was sad that you made me eat them all and wouldn't touch them because they were sat there and would have gone in the bin.

Chris: 6:04

I'm a man of principles. Festive principles. So, yeah, when you were talking about the build-up to this Christmas, there was more disappointment in you than there was in me.

Claire: 6:13

Yeah, because I think when, you know, someone's ill like you are, what you had was potentially contagious at the beginning. Now you've got some flu bug that I really don't want. There's a separation between us, so I don't feel like we're that close at the moment. I feel like we've just been existing in the same house, moving around between sofas and beds and it's sort of, yeah, it's not been that exciting.

Chris: 6:33

It has not. In mid-November when I had that fortnight of compiler back to you picked up something from me then and came down with a cold and I started to get better and improve and left you down in the gutter with with your heavy cold symptoms yeah so yeah sorry about that your immune system what with all your oestrogen stuff HRT battle struggles ongoing chronic stuff your immune system is pretty knackered anyway isn't it

Claire: 6:58

well I knew that the treatment I was on that I started in October was going to be potentially not great for me with a lot of symptoms until Christmas new year hopefully in the new year I've got a new treatment that will well could solve all this but um yeah got hopes fairly high but not too high just in case so we were expecting me to not feel great between October and Christmas so we kind of wrote off this time of year no planning of anything we weren't going to go do anything for Christmas we were going to keep it all pretty low-key and then if I was feeling really rubbish that gives me the space to just feel that way not having to push it in front of big gatherings of friends or family so we were kind of expecting that what we weren't expecting is for you to feel so ill so it's sort of I guess it's eased in some ways because we both had had a bit of it but um We have kept this Christmas pretty empty diary-wise because of that and commitment-wise, which I don't mind, you know, as an introvert. Quiet time, quiet Christmas. I'm very happy with that.

Chris: 7:49

Apart from New Year, I have forced something into our diary on New Year's Eve. Yeah, because it's last year. Just to do something to get us out of the house. So we're going to make a few plans on New Year's Eve. We'll probably be back for the evening. I

Claire: 7:59

was going to say, you say New Year's Eve, but we'll probably be back home by three.

Chris: 8:01

Yeah, yeah. But as long as we've had something in that day where it's not just been like a very quiet, boring Saturday, as long as we do something where it just feels a little bit like we're we're doing something new

Claire: 8:12

well last year in the episode you were saying you felt like you're some of your colleagues had said as well that going back to work in between Christmas and New Year was actually better because it didn't merge the whole thing into one and New Year can feel a bit like the downy kind of end of time off and it's all a bit the same whereas when you go back to work you kind of reset and then you have some more time off and this year you have got a day work in between so

Chris: 8:32

one day

Claire: 8:33

maybe that will reset us

Chris: 8:35

or make all the difference

Claire: 8:37

who knows

Chris: 8:37

so Monday before New I'll be at work and thinking, oh, it's so good to be back at work for one day. That will reset me and then I'll feel up for a couple of days off after that.

Claire: 8:46

It feels like we were really struggling with Christmas, just being childless, working out where we fit in, trying not to let it make us feel sad and a bit down in 2021, which is what we were talking about. And you really missing that excitement that you had as a child over Christmas. And then in 2022... we were aware of that more and I think these conversations you know in these conversations we talk about stuff that we haven't spoken about between the two of us I mean we came into this conversation this year I've literally planned nothing to say so I have no idea what we're going to be talking about but I think we've been more intentional about Christmas and 2022 we're like yeah let's focus on the things we like we have some things that we don't have okay but let's find things we do like like the food and the lights and all the other stuff and then 2023 I think we thought brilliant we've got this nailed we can do what we want to do oh no 2022 we went away We left the country for Christmas and went to Belgium. So we made it really different. So that was nice. You were

Chris: 9:37

unwell.

Claire: 9:37

I was unwell, yeah. We'll forget about that. In 2023, we were back home. We saw both sets of parents and we were like, ah, you know, I think we can make this something. We can make it better. We're getting the hang of this now. But then New Year was really bad. Whereas the year before, I'd been saying I preferred New Year to Christmas because I felt like it was a nicer holiday for us and being childless. There wasn't the pressure of family. And then this year, I feel like I'm kind of... I feel like I have intentions about Christmas, so I feel happier going into it. I know what we like and everything, but it's been a bit wrecked by one or two of us not feeling well. And New Year, I now think we're terrified of getting wrong because last year it went so badly wrong after it was something we really liked. So I think everything's up for grabs this year. I think we'll be doing an episode in the New Year. Who knows how Christmas and New Year will have gone? I don't know. I feel less confident that I've got it nailed now.

Chris: 10:28

I do like some of the new traditions, I think, that you've introduced. You've certainly suggested and helped introduce that we have in the build-up to Christmas at the start of December. I mean, we've got what's becoming an annual theatrical production of our Christmas tree purchase. Christmas tree. Christmas tree. And using that on social media, so that's something. We had an advent calendar each. Yes. An advent candle. I

Claire: 10:55

bought all kinds of advent things this year. Advent

Chris: 10:57

stable. We've had, you know, just nice little things, even decorating the Christmas tree. There was so much putting on the tree that was meaningful, not just opening boxes of... baubles that you've bought from a supermarket baubles boxes of baubles but actually things that have been made by yourself or by friends things that have been gifted by friends

Claire: 11:17

our Christmas tree is the mess that you would expect of somebody with children where nothing matches it all looks very different but every single thing I know where I got it from or who gave it to me or where it came from and they've all got very special little memories attached so I really love our tree for that so that's always a nice thing you open up the box and you're like oh I forgot I bought this last year I made this last year so yeah that was pretty But

Chris: 11:37

then you did say not enough lights. It needs to have more lights.

Claire: 11:40

Yes, this year the tree looks a bit... I think it's because we've put it in the window, so there's quite a lot of light on it. So the actual fairy lights, I feel like it's giving off less light somehow. Why are they called fairy

Chris: 11:49

lights?

Claire: 11:50

Maybe it's because they're small like fairies.

Chris: 11:52

Well, like fairies trapped on cords of plastic. Prisoners.

Claire: 11:58

Yeah, I was just thinking...

Chris: 11:59

Christmas prisoners.

Claire: 12:00

Yeah, that's what people in jail do, don't they? They're all attached by a wire when they walk around in the 50s or 20s. Poor fairies.

Chris: 12:07

We should campaign to change the name of the lights. They probably are changed, actually.

Claire: 12:10

I'm pretty sure they're not fairy lights. It's probably not PC.

Chris: 12:13

So, yeah.

Claire: 12:15

We have got some good things. And the nice thing about that is even if you're not feeling well, there's something lovely about lying on a sofa and looking at a nice Christmas tree.

Chris: 12:21

That is true. I have found myself doing that a number of times, just looking across thinking, I can smell it. I can see it. It feels nice. I found myself, and this is a big sign, I found myself going to like on the TV menus and whatever you're... platform you've got on thinking oh we could put on this Christmas film and I'm like oh it's not Christmas yet we're too far out

Claire: 12:46

I don't think we are too far out but I know what you mean because we're going to have a lot of time like the whole of Christmas week almost for us could be watching Christmas movies so we've got a lot of time ahead so I do think we need to save it a little bit

Chris: 12:54

yeah but don't forget we're going to be playing Scrabble this Christmas

Claire: 12:57

it's true I got a special Scrabble set for my birthday which we have not played yet

Chris: 13:02

someone might think what is a special Scrabble surely Scrabble is Scrabble

Claire: 13:06

Well, no. So my grandparents had a Scrabble set and that's how I got introduced to Scrabble was playing it with my grandparents. And it was one of those boards that has a spinny bit underneath. You can spin the board so you can actually see it from your angle. So it wasn't one person who's looking at it upside down constantly. And also where the tiles go on the board, there's little grooves around the tiles. So they don't move when you accidentally hit someone else's word and you have to realign it. No, you put them in the grooves. And I just loved that. And we had a normal Scrabble board that was just flat. And then for my birthday, that you were asking for ideas and I was like I'd love one but it's like a second hand deluxe set because I don't think they make them anymore so you can get them on eBay I was

Chris: 13:43

thinking was it called vintage but no it's deluxe

Claire: 13:45

deluxe yeah so I got one of those they don't make

Chris: 13:47

things like they used to they don't they were built to last

Claire: 13:50

that's a sign of us being back in the 19th

Chris: 13:52

century

Claire: 13:53

old

Chris: 13:54

getting on a bit so yeah new year they'll be yes catching up on Christmas movies and playing Scrabble

Claire: 13:59

yes we've got a quiet Christmas we have had some invites from family and stuff but we've decided that this year we're just going to be the two of us partly because we weren't sure how we were feeling so it's going to be a quiet one but I quite like that I like our kind of you know doing a nice roast dinner and just enjoying the time I think we'll have to be intentional about not letting all the days run into the same sort of pattern and then getting bored but yeah that's okay and I like the freedom when you're not feeling great to know you can just relax you can switch off you can do what you need to do which is trickier obviously if you're staying with family or somewhere else

Chris: 14:28

which is all well and good but to come back to something you said a few minutes ago and this taps very much into a core theme of previous Christmas chats expectations Do you feel like you've nailed... Well, no, clearly you haven't, because what you were saying, you'd have been all over the place with expectations. So, yes, we've put plans in place to really keep this Christmas quiet and minimal and just, you know, shut the door. It's the two of us. Thanks very much. But then even within that setup, there's still room for, hang on, mistletoe. That's better. There's still room, just the two of you in the house, to get the expectations wrong. So how are you doing with managing expectations?

Claire: 15:09

Yeah, I don't actually think, now I think about it, I have any expectations for this Christmas. which is probably a safe place to be because I know in one of the Christmas episodes we massively explored your experiment of having no expectations for anything. Let's assume it's going to go really badly and then anything else that happens is just a bonus. I'm not like that. I haven't gone that low but I don't think I've got any for it at the moment and that's partly because of I don't know how I'm going to be feeling and I find for that it's just easier to just go in without any expectations I know some people are a bit like oh you know positive frame of mind and you know but for me if I assume it's going to be great and lovely I look on the bright side as it were I just get really disappointed when it isn't really let down, really feel sad about everything and just really gutted. Whereas if I keep my expectations lower or I don't have any, then if it doesn't go great, you're like, OK, well, it is what it is. Let's get through this. So I think we have found that's a healthier way for us to be. It might sound a bit pessimistic to some people, but sometimes you just have to protect yourself a bit from constantly being disappointed. And anything that goes great is even more great because of it, because you weren't expecting it.

Chris: 16:13

Summarize or recap when you say it depends how you're feeling. What is that to you?

Claire: 16:19

Yeah, so for me, that means mostly hormonal. So because I'm on a treatment at the moment that's got a lot lower estrogen than I've had in the past, and estrogen is a very key hormone for maintaining brain health, body health, it affects a lot of things. So because I'm on a much lower treatment, which I need to do to tick a box for the NHS care that I'm under. It's not a plan I wanted to do. I don't think it's a very good plan, but I've decided to do it to tick this box. So I'm on a much lower dose, which means that it can affect my moods. It can affect my brain. It can affect physically how I feel. It can make me a lot more tired. And I don't know from day to day, really, where those levels are going to be. They're not massively consistent at the moment because I haven't been on any one product to keep it consistent. So by Christmas, I might be in a more consistent place and be feeling fine. But I might also not be in a very consistent place or the level might be too low, which means I won't be feeling good. But we knew that was coming. And on the 2nd of January, I've got an appointment booked in to have an HRT implant, which is the first time I've ever had something like that, which could regulate my hormones. So that could be an amazing thing. I haven't ever got this far before in the treatment to have this. So I'm very hopeful that will be a good change, which is why I'm taking it up until Christmas, as it might be good, it might be bad. We just don't know because I'm aiming for the new year. So I'm trying not to have a really high hopes for next year because i think next year could be great if this all works out but um taking it day at a time at the moment

Chris: 17:43

if you're listening back to this chat from last year you'll hear us say that we had high hopes for 2024

Claire: 17:47

and the year before probably i had high hopes for 20 here he goes

Chris: 17:52

oh i'm back

Claire: 17:54

i had high hopes for 2020 that was my year that i thought everything was going to be amazing

Chris: 17:58

yeah the perfect vision yeah a year of clarity

Claire: 18:02

So who knows? Didn't happen. That's what it's taught us. You just never know what kind of year you're going into.

Chris: 18:08

Tortoise sounds like tortoise.

Claire: 18:11

A little. Not enough to possibly point it out.

Chris: 18:14

Okay, I understand that. And I think a lot of that, having seen you and supported you through much of that for years... On top of all the hormone stuff is just the thick frustration that you're aware of it and can't change it. You can't take a paracetamol. You can't have a hot toddy. Not that we've ever had

Claire: 18:39

a hot toddy. I don't

Chris: 18:40

even know what that is. There's nothing. You can't do anything to change that. And it's like no one is more frustrated about those feelings when you know it's just like, oh, it's just this sort of cloud descends. In fact, you wrote a really good blog, didn't you? I often think of a couple of years back. about almost like you're looking through the eyes.

Claire: 18:58

Yeah, lost inside, feeling lost in your own body.

Chris: 19:01

Yeah, like those in mascot suits and you're looking through this sort of skin and the eyes of something else, observing what's around you. So yeah, totally get that.

Claire: 19:10

Yeah, it's been a long old journey. But like I said, it's kind of the end of the line, this next treatment. So maybe that'll be what will sort everything out. We'll have to wait and see. Expectations

Chris: 19:21

versus hopes.

Claire: 19:23

Big thing.

Chris: 19:23

Yeah. So we've got Christmas approaching and we have our plans in place. It's going to be the two of us. We've got some nice little things coming up.

Claire: 19:35

Yeah. One thing that just crossed my mind actually that plays into that a lot with the podcast. One thing I have had to struggle with is real disappointment at the amount of stuff I feel like I could be doing with the podcast and with the Herman Company, with other stuff that I haven't managed to do or we haven't managed to do. You know, we've had to postpone a couple of podcast guest interviews because of illness had to do them at a different time we've delayed that we had to not put an episode out one week because of illness that hasn't really happened before so I think I found that quite hard I found some real and I put a social media post out about it actually just saying I find it really difficult when I see all these lovely people crafted social media posts or people doing videos about the holidays reaching out to people who might feel on their own and there's so much out there and you look at it and you think oh I should be doing this stuff and there's a real should thing on you I should be doing that I should be pushing this I should be doing more with the Herman company I should be writing more blogs about this time of year and how I feel because I did in the past but when you can't do any of that stuff because you just mentally aren't in a place to be able to do it well I find that hard I wrestle with that a lot letting go of that I found really difficult just like that's not me right now I can't do everything sometimes through Christmas and New Year we've put an episode out in between Christmas and New Year every single day we did a series on hope and where's your hope at and how are you feeling around all that kind of stuff and we've done episodes put them out on Christmas Day to help people who might be struggling and I really feel like this year it's like oh I just don't feel like I can do any of that and that makes me really sad because I want to But you have to know your limits of what you can do. And that's what I put in the social media post. It's sort of know what you can do. And I used a quote that's something along the lines of, if you've only got 40% to give, but you give 40%, you give 100%. And that's been quite key for me to remember. I know I'm not giving 100% because I know I can do better, but I don't have it in me at the moment. I'm just functioning at a 40% level. But if I give that, if I keep the podcast going, if I keep the episodes going and getting them out, even at bare minimum, then that's me, you know, that is 100%. So I've had to learn a lot. So I think I'm going into this Christmas a little bit like having to try and let go of that and not feel guilt about other stuff I could be doing for other people. but I just don't have the energy to sustain myself half the time. So, yeah, that makes me a bit sad.

Chris: 21:49

Remember as well, you've been caring for a sickly husband.

Claire: 21:52

That's true. I've been a carer.

Chris: 21:54

Which has been a drain on your 40% anyway.

Claire: 21:58

I said to you partway through when you were really ill, bless you, I said, you know, I don't want you to be ill, obviously. I'm not at the point where I can say I want to take this for you because I've had so much of my own illness, I didn't want more. But I did say there's something really nice in not being the sick one for a change and being able to look after you. That was actually really lovely for the roles to be slightly reversed for a bit, even though it wasn't nice that you were ill, obviously.

Chris: 22:19

And then it's not very lovely when I get better.

Claire: 22:21

And I get a cold. Yeah, you leave me behind again. Don't go, don't go. Don't get well. I need you here. So, yeah. Yeah, thinking about it, there's been a lot going on and a lot to... sort of process, I guess, and think about. Again, flipping heck, I honestly thought that once we started processing all this stuff and thinking about it over the years, talking about grief, all that stuff, I thought that we'd be like, we've got this. We know what we're doing. We can help other people through it. What fools? There's loads of people out there going, yeah, idiots. That was never going to happen. Yeah. Yeah, we're still learning. We could still be tumbling into a Christmas that's rubbish or a new year that doesn't go right. I think

Chris: 23:08

with that in mind, it might be partly related to grief or not, I've found... I found the ability to cry this year.

Claire: 23:15

Yes, you've cried this year more than I've ever seen you cry in my life.

Chris: 23:20

So that's been weird.

Claire: 23:21

Yeah, what's that about?

Chris: 23:23

Well, I don't know.

Claire: 23:23

A softening. It scares me a little when Chris starts to cry. Oh,

Chris: 23:29

dear, metal toe. Oh, blowing my nose, breaking wind, coughing at the same time. What a mess. Yeah, thanks for that.

Claire: 23:39

It's because when Chris starts to cry, he looks a little bit like he might be laughing So I'm not entirely sure up front what's going to happen. I

Chris: 23:47

always try to be positive, you see. I don't want to let on that anything bad's happening.

Claire: 23:53

We're quite good like that, I think, if one of us is crying. There's quite often laughter in amongst the tears. The other one gets the other one to laugh. There's something quite special, I think, about laughing in the middle of crying. A special emotion.

Chris: 24:05

But yeah, a softening, a willingness to feel... sad feel sadnesses there's been lots of I think actually sort of an unrelated point there's definitely been a continuation maybe an increase in the amount of television and film stuff that's that's born out of or based around griefs and losses

Claire: 24:30

yeah I don't know if we're just more aware of it I don't think we are but I think yeah looking back at the films I used to enjoy that were mostly sort of happy rom-com type things you don't get those so much anymore but there are a lot of There's a lot of really good TV. And yes, so often there's a loss or a grief right at the heart of it. Very obviously as well, not necessarily like a subtle one.

Chris: 24:49

Yeah. So even, you know, we just started watching on Netflix the Man on the Inside. Man on the Inside. Ted Danson, who we love because of The Good Place. He was great in that, wasn't he? And there was a line in that when we were watching that last night. I think it was episode two. He's referring to, because he's a widower. Is that right? Is it the female that's the widow or the male that's the widower? Yeah. So he's a widower and he just had this little lovely line that said, A year after my wife's death or a year after her death, I'm still very much in love with my wife. And even that just made, I was just like, I couldn't speak after that. I welled up. I was like, oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. And that would never have bothered me.

Claire: 25:28

No, it prompted a little bit of a conversation because I said to you, I said, interesting, you think about the grief and getting through that and what that feels like and how that might ease over time. But you don't necessarily, I mean, you do think about the love because you hear the whole kind of, you know, grief is love with no place to go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. just took on a new meaning i'm still in love with them it's quite obvious really in some way it's not that profound but yeah i just thought i never really thought about it in that that way in particular and at what point do you admit maybe you're not in love that should be

Chris: 26:15

one of we should definitely do a last episode on that loss of being in love because i think we're advocates you know we we love marriage we love being married to each other we love working on our marriage and we absolutely believe 100 that you have to work at the relationship you don't just you Yeah.

Claire: 26:52

Yeah, because I think a lot of people say they've still got the love for the person, obviously. But I kind of saw it like something you're carrying around. It's just you and you've got it and there's no one to share it with because that person's not there. But to be in love with somebody means you're still sharing it with them after they die. So I'd be interested to see at what point does it stop? and it become just love I've got for that person. I'm not in love with them anymore. Because you couldn't really be in love, I wouldn't have thought, with them for the next 50 years. Can you be in love with something, like you said, you can't work on, you can't change, they're not there, you don't know what they'd be at that age. What you're in love with is actually someone in the past now. So yeah, it would be an interesting topic to look at, but it certainly touched your heart.

Chris: 27:33

Yeah, it has. So there's been a softening, there's been more openness to sadness, there's been more... Feeling of the feelings.

Claire: 27:40

And you've been continued to be quite good. I know we spoke about one of the Christmas episodes. You were trying to be more intentional about telling me if you had something that you were finding hard about being childless. Something if you saw something that you're like, oh, that made me sad because we wouldn't have that or I wouldn't have that. You're exploring that in one of those episodes. And since then, we've continued that as well. Have we? You've forgotten to do that recently.

Chris: 28:03

No, you certainly have. Yeah. I was just thinking there, because that reminded me of the last time I did that with you, which was really helpful, was that I was walking down the street near my workplace and I was following. So I was about 20 meters behind, walking a lot quicker then. A couple, it was a dad and a daughter, walking into school in the morning, hand in hand. And I was approaching them because I was a six-foot-tall guy. I can walk a lot faster than a six-year-old girl and her dad. That's one of my skills. And it just struck me, that image of them walking hand in hand. I'm just thinking I'm never going to feel that. I'm never going to feel the touch of a child's hand in mine. You know, we're both tactile people. We like touch. We like hugs. We like hugging. And, you know, clearly parents of small children and slightly bigger children are very familiar with the touch of their child, of hugs, of sitting on laps, of being with, being together. And, yeah, just as I spent the 20 seconds it took me, whatever, to overtake them. I just felt really sad inside that That's never going to be something I, you know, I've not felt that. I won't feel that to have my child's hand in my hand. But rather than push it away, I thought, no, I'm just going to keep hold of that for a little while. I'm not going to be scared to allow myself to feel sad. And I think that's when I told you about that one, didn't I? And said, yeah, I was just doing medicine. It just made me feel a bit sad and

Claire: 29:41

it's okay. Some people who are childless or going through infertility really feel the emotions. They see something. something like that and it breaks them and they go back to the office and they cry or they go home and they cry or they have a really bad week or they have a day off work or, you know, they really take those things. They feel the feelings when it hits them and they sort of really go with it. And I think we have always been the opposite. And it took me a long while to realise that and to realise how I think it can be unhealthy to go too far into it because you'll spend your whole life feeling sad. But I also think it can be unhealthy to go as far as we went, which was more a kind of, let's be strong about it. Let's be a good example to others. Let's show people we can get through this. Let's, you know, we're not going to get broken by this. We know we went the other way. And in doing that, we didn't really allow ourselves to feel a lot of those feelings, partly because it's not easy to know how to feel them. If you're at a family gathering and you're watching family with their kids and that, at what point is it appropriate to say oh excuse me I'm finding this really difficult and this is really sad for me there isn't really a way of doing that so you push through and you're you know you're nice for them and you engage as much as you can and then you go away and so I think it's difficult to know for us especially and that won't be for everybody but that has been our experience we haven't been the kind of people who have you know I've known people who can't have children who won't be in the same room as a pregnant person we've never been down that road to that extreme so it is hard so I think for us acknowledging the sad things even though we're years away from our initial infertility is really important It is. It is. about talking about grief and when you say to someone how are you getting on how's your day you don't know if that person's about to say I'm really struggling because I can't have children my husband died by suicide my brother just lost his leg you don't know what's going to come up at that point you don't get trigger warnings in life and that's partly why we've done it and a lot of people will disagree with that and I understand it but I think for me trigger warnings the other thing that annoys me a little bit about the situation with childlessness is that you can read a blog or something and they'll put a whole load of trigger warnings at the top this contains the P word to me ages to work out what that was that's pregnancy

Chris: 32:07

this contains I was going to try and guess like a Christmas quiz

Claire: 32:10

yeah exactly this contains they have all these initials and I have to work out what they are and then that tells me that people are triggered by them so you start thinking should I be triggered by you know for me it just it creates more triggers but the other thing is you don't know what triggers somebody in childlessness so a lot of people might think you know it's difficult to tell her about my pregnant friend or to tell her that we're going to have a baby or to be around her because I'm pregnant because it might trigger her pregnancy's never triggered me it's never been been a thing that I've had an issue with when someone else says they're pregnant I might be sad about the loss or change of friendship coming up if I know them really well but I've never been sad about the actual the pregnancy bit and that not being me but seeing families together seeing little interactions with people and their kids that's the sort of thing that would trigger, if you want to use the word, trigger me into feeling sad thoughts. And you can't predict those. I don't even know what they are half the time. Other people don't know. So as far as I'm concerned, it's impossible to find trigger warnings for me because I don't know them myself. But all this leading up to when we went to one of the carol services recently and you were recording for work and I was sat in the audience with a couple of friends and there was a kids choir that got up And they were singing beautifully. There was a moment where I looked at a couple of the girls at the back that were just singing. You know, it was such a lovely Christmas song. It was very faith-based, which is how we would have liked to have raised our children. And I looked at them and there was a moment then where I just thought, oh my word, how special would it be to have a daughter there that was one of ours? And there's moments like that. Now I wouldn't have, someone had said to me, by the way, there's a children's choir here. Is that going to affect? I'd have been like, what?

Chris: 33:46

Big sign on the front door. What

Claire: 33:48

are you on about? That's crazy. There's choirs everywhere. But in that moment, looking at these beautiful kids singing so beautifully as well, so well behaved at the front, there was something in me that was just like, oh, man, I'd love to have had a moment of feeling proud for one of our kids doing something like that. And that won't ever happen. So I think it's, yeah, it's interesting how you have these moments. And I didn't share that one with you. But again, it comes into my mind and I just let it sit there. rather than be like oh you know crazy it won't be just move on I think no actually I'm going to sit with this for a moment that's something I've lost and that's a small loss I need to think about and sort of tiny grieve

Chris: 34:24

trigger warnings as well I think are evidence of just how many people are unable don't have the emotional support don't have the help whatever to acknowledge and deal with the the pain so it's it's behind a glass panel in their heart and uh They're afraid that without a trigger warning, that could be cracked, that could be smashed. So there's a lot of people carrying a lot of sadness, but they just don't know how to... tap into it and work on it.

Claire: 34:57

I think trigger warnings give people this false security that you will get warned before stuff happens in life. So you can create a whole world where you've got trigger warnings on all your podcasts or all your blog posts or in this Facebook group, but that's not the real world. The real world is not going to give you those. When you open up the news page on the BBC, there isn't a lot of trigger warnings that this involves war or child death or a rapist going to prison. There isn't a warning there for you. It's not all

Chris: 35:24

bad news.

Claire: 35:25

No, Okay, 100-year-old woman befriends a squirrel. But they're not really the things people need trigger warnings for.

Chris: 35:32

Well, I don't know. Well, that's true. It depends if you've lost your gran recently. To a squirrel. Or your squirrel. Oh,

Claire: 35:39

dear

Chris: 35:39

mistletoe.

Claire: 35:43

Honestly, in those mistletoe breaks.

Chris: 35:46

Oh, goodness.

Claire: 35:46

Coughing, nose blowing, water drinking.

Chris: 35:49

It makes me realise, actually, that... Just another little depressing thought. I've bought... I've bought more boxes of tissues this Christmas so far than I have presents.

Claire: 36:00

That's because I do all the presents.

Chris: 36:02

Presents for you. Oh,

Claire: 36:04

wow. Wonderful.

Chris: 36:06

Yeah, there you go. Have that one for free. I'll look forward to that. Plenty of times to put that right.

Claire: 36:10

Anyway, back to our sickly, childless life.

Chris: 36:14

Oh, happy Christmas. Merry Christmas.

Claire: 36:17

It's not all bad.

Chris: 36:18

No.

Claire: 36:18

Yeah, a lot of these things are healthy. I don't want people feeling depressed for us. Well, not the sickness, obviously, but, you know, the way we're processing and thinking about this stuff. I think it's really healthy. I do feel a bit embarrassed about it in some ways because I feel like we're doing this 10-15 years after we should have been processing it in a better way but I think that's our story that's our journey and I'm hoping that will help some people to know you know what if you're 10-15 years after something that you are now struggling with grief wise it's okay to try and grieve it then I know it's awkward and it's weird and I think sometimes you need some help to do that with people I think it's very hard on your own to think I think I need to grieve this but I don't know where to start so I think it's important to see somebody if you need to to talk it through and get some help because they will help you do that but don't worry about doing it it still needs doing because I really believe if we don't do it you just carry it forward into another grief or into another year and it can affect other things so I'm hoping our story is one that helps people know they can grieve at any time for anything

Chris: 37:17

definitely which is quite hard to accept Because, you know, if you're like me, if you want to be an achiever, I was raised to be an achiever, I think, you don't want to consider spending years of your life having to work on something. You know, it pains me, I find this regularly, that friends, whether it's just on a WhatsApp message or a conversation, when you catch up with friends you've not seen for X months... you know, what's going on? How are you doing? What's new? I really don't like the question, what's new? Because I'd love to be able to answer it with lots of new. And it's just nothing. Nothing is new. When I catch up with friends, family, it pains me that there's nothing to really say. It's just like we use the word plodding along, bobbing along. It's like, yeah, nothing really changes for us. Things are the same now as they were last year, pretty

Claire: 38:09

much. Yeah. And there are ways that, you know, I feel like, would some people be thinking well you know change that there's lots of ways to change that but at this stage in our life where we are partly because of my health stuff probably we're not really in a position to change that a because most changes and things you go and do and experience cost money so we don't do a lot that costs money because we're cautious about stuff like that so we're not going out for meals all the time or getting takeaways or joining new clubs or starting hobbies or you know those sorts of things every time you look at something should we do this you It just costs that bit of extra money and you're like, well, yeah, we're not in a place right now where we want to spend it on that. So we hold back on that or it's a health thing. So I'm not feeling great. So it's not worth spending money or time on something where you're not going to enjoy it fully. So I think that's the other sad thing is there's loads of ways we can improve it, but we feel like we can't.

Chris: 38:55

That stuff, though, is that stuff's not going to impact more than a day of your life, is it?

Claire: 39:00

Well, it depends if you started a new ongoing hobby

Chris: 39:02

or

Claire: 39:02

something. If

Chris: 39:03

this Christmas you see somebody, a member of the family you've not seen for a while, and they say, oh, so what's new? And you're like, oh, he went out for a meal four weeks ago. That doesn't make much of an impact, I think, for us.

Claire: 39:14

No, it feels like you're doing something.

Chris: 39:15

When you said at our stage of life, I think for us, to change something, it needs to be quite drastic. It needs to be... You know, me quitting my job or getting another job. It's a different part of the country, different part of the world. It needs a house move. It needs something that's a big enough point in your year. So when it comes to the, not that we do this, but the newsletters at Christmas, you've actually got something to talk about. It's like, you know, we did something big this year. We had a big trip. Because you don't report the things like a takeaway.

Claire: 39:46

No, but if you had a new hobby or something, if you were really getting into... I don't know, pottery or shooting or something you picked up and you started getting really good at it. Why did you come up with pottery or shooting? I don't know. Just two random extremes of things you could do. There would be some new stuff there. It doesn't have to be something massive. But I'm just saying, even for whether it's something massive or something tiny, we're not really in a position to do any of that. Partly because of my health stuff and partly because of money restrictions. It's not something we can just change. I think that's part of the frustration. It's not just there's nothing new. It's that we're also feeling a little bit powerless to even know how to make it new when we don't have the stuff that we'd like. Well, we're far too sensible, aren't we,

Chris: 40:27

really? I don't know, maybe sensible is the wrong word. But sometimes, I guess, because we've been in that place for so long where we just need to take care. Yeah. That you move away from taking risks. whether that's financial or emotional, physical.

Claire: 40:41

Yeah, especially with health stuff as well. You don't want to take a risk on a big adventure or holiday or something and then spend the whole time feeling rough. You kind of want to wait until you're going to be amazing and then take the

Chris: 40:51

risk. Example of that is that 2025 will definitely, hopefully, end with, or near the end... We'll be recording our 2025 Christmas episode, having returned tanned from a couple of months in Australia.

Claire: 41:08

Yes, that's the plan. So we decided almost a couple of years ago, it was quite a long time ago, last year if not the year before, that we were going to try and do something in the year 2025 because it was our 20th wedding anniversary.

Chris: 41:19

Massive celebration.

Claire: 41:20

Yeah. We have a distant relative of yours that's in Australia.

Chris: 41:24

Big up, David.

Claire: 41:26

He was a very keen listener on his train. And he's been saying, you know, come visit. And we were like, OK, well, why not? We know someone out there. Let's try and do it. So, yeah, so we sort of penciled it in and now we're within the year of it. So it's getting more serious. So the aim is next year to do a couple of months in Australia at the end of the year, which we're very much looking forward to. That's the western side of Australia, probably.

Chris: 41:46

But it means, you know, it does mean a lot of saving. It does mean a lot of thinking, planning, health-wise. hrt wise what on earth sort of place will you be in physically when when it comes to that time

Claire: 41:58

yeah because one of the previous treatments i was on would involve me taking over 500 sachets of the gel that i'm on in my suitcase that's one of four treatments so that kind of thing stresses me out a little bit because i'm like oh i'd love to be on a treatment that didn't involve taking bucket loads of medication on holiday yeah so we're very hopeful that you know with this new implant i'm looking at and things changing that next year could be could be a good year and you know 20 years of marriage I mean that's a good step a lot of childless couples don't make it through in their marriage so it's a big thing and that's what we mean that you know we've worked at it we've worked at it and we've worked through a situation that some marriages don't survive and I think that's worth patting ourselves on the back about but also it reminds me that in one of the previous Christmas episodes you were saying that when you think about not having children you think about not having a baby and you said to me what age do I think about if I think about our children and I had them heading into teenage years and we were saying how interesting it was that we had those different images but I was saying to someone the other day you know if we'd have got pregnant a year after we got married we'd have a 19 year old our kid would be at uni that would

Chris: 43:01

be weird

Claire: 43:01

that's so bizarre to think that not only are we missing out on these little stages that we see, but now we've missed out on the full spectrum right up to university, which is, yeah, it's a little scary. And I hope that puts it in perspective sometimes for people because we've got a lot of friends who've got very young, small children, and they probably see us as not having young, small children like they have. So when you sometimes point out, actually, our children would be potentially like 19 years old it shows you how long our journey's been even though infertility didn't start we weren't trying to get pregnant straight after we got married so I think our kids have been near 15 but even so that's a big big thing to sit and you know ponder on for a bit we could always be grandparents

Chris: 43:41

we probably could be

Claire: 43:42

some people have kids at 19

Chris: 43:43

yeah And that taps into something we've spoken about over the years as well, just like the big pause. Society sort of dictates that this is what happens in life. And then, you know, we did the education, university, serious relationship, engaged, married, whatever else. And then after marriage for us, Life sort of paused. And here we are now still. Waiting for death. I think society's sort of given up on us. It's like, actually, no, you're not going to do anything else. So I guess the next thing for us in the society step, we'll get back on the train in retiring. So between marriage and retiring, probably.

Claire: 44:22

Which I don't want to think about because I'm out of a job at the moment. So I don't feel like I've got anything to retire from. So I need to get back into work.

Chris: 44:29

But

Claire: 44:29

yeah. To retire from something.

Chris: 44:30

Well, you do have work.

Claire: 44:33

I do. Yes. But I'd like to be in something that's paying me. Money. It's all about the money. Rather than compliments. But yeah, I do have work to do. I do enjoy what I do. But it'd be lovely to be doing something that was financially...

Chris: 44:50

Rewarding.

Claire: 44:51

Rewarding, yeah. I'm so grateful for everyone who helps the podcast and supports it financially. It blows my mind that people are willing to do that. And so it doesn't cost me anything to do. And there's bits of extra money, which is great, because obviously I can put that into things like the Herman Company and making Hermans. And I get a little bit of money from each sale of those, which is also great. But I've never taken a wage from any of this. So it's never supported us financially. It just supports itself, which is great. But I don't know. Maybe we won't really retire. Maybe we'll be... I'd like to be someone who never fully retires as such. We'll be in our 80s. But it's busy all the time. We're on

Chris: 45:24

loss number 92 out of 101.

Claire: 45:28

Why on earth would it only be 92 if we're in our 80s? What happened there? It's

Chris: 45:33

taken a long time

Claire: 45:33

to get there. I thought you were going to say lost like 950 or something, not like 92. Yeah,

Chris: 45:37

that's true. We just kept going.

Claire: 45:38

To be a bit more positive,

Chris: 45:40

yeah. Right.

Claire: 45:40

Had a massive 20, 30 year gap. It's taken a

Chris: 45:43

long time. Good point, yeah.

Claire: 45:44

Yeah, yeah.

Chris: 45:44

We're on loss number 900,000.

Claire: 45:47

Well, last time, last Christmas, We were pleased that we were sort of heading for just over the halfway mark. Now we're heading lost 60 in the new year. So we're doing well on 101. And so,

Chris: 45:58

you know, we get so much encouragement from the comments that we receive, particularly from those that we meet and we interview those that give us their time. And then others that have become loyal supporters and listeners of the episodes. You know, it's so heartwarming when you just see just one comment. It's meaningful. It has depth. It has explanation. It's just like, oh, they're worthwhile.

Claire: 46:24

And I really try and find the right guests. I get a lot of emails from publicists and people who work for people. I can't believe how many people out there who have written a book have got somebody working for them that just approaches every podcast they can find to get them on it. It fascinates me. But I get a lot of emails. Oh, someone's just written a book about this and that and it's all grief related. But they haven't, they don't really know anything about our podcast. They don't know what mission we're on. And I've got braver about being a lot stricter with them that if they're going to come on they need to listen to a few episodes they need to know what we're talking about they need to be prepared to open up to the level that we want to chat about and kind of be on board with our whole mission because I really want our guests to be you know authentic stories that will help our listeners I've never said yes to anyone just because they've messaged and they've got a book out on grief I really want it to be people that are inspiring and because of that there's so many lovely guests we've got on and I you know I feel like I'm I'm easily still in touch with them I could message almost Thank you so much. but it's something that you've been through in your grief that you want to pass on to others that will outlive you. And if we can have 101 bits of advice for people from people who have been through it, say, this is how you get through grief. This is how I held on when it was hard. This is what I want you to know. Then like, you know, what a special thing, what a legacy to have. And I can't wait to, well, I sort of can wait because it'll be an editing nightmare. But at some point I want those 101 Hermans shortened, obviously, and then just put together. So I've got this massive Hermontage of all of the advice for you about grief. Maybe even a book.

Chris: 48:18

It will be a long one, a couple hours.

Claire: 48:20

Probably. If I can get them all down to 30 seconds, I might get it under the air. You're not

Chris: 48:24

going to do

Claire: 48:24

that. they're all too heartfelt and long

Chris: 48:27

yeah yeah there's too much meaning in them to chop them down to 30 seconds which is nice but yeah we started our conversation with lots of alliteration around the letter c and i'm going to use another c word community oh good i think all of that you know the strength of community of you've built around the podcast has been brilliant really really nice

Claire: 48:46

i love that each of them i hope they do anyway they feel like they're part of this kind of 101 family like we're building it gradually but once you've got your number in there you are one of them so So yeah, hopefully that'll be something that they feel proud to be part of. That's the aim anyway. But yeah, we've got an interesting episode coming out in the new year, the next one, number 60. I'll give you a teaser about that one. And we're looking at loss, but through good things. So when you have a good transition in life, when something happy happens to you, but there's loss attached to it, or you have a sense of loss or grief as you go through the good stuff. And I think that's something that people will, some people will really identify with that instantly. They'll know what that means. And some people will be a bit curious about that. maybe haven't experienced it. So I'm looking forward to that episode going out.

Chris: 49:29

It's a difficult one to explain.

Claire: 49:30

It is. I'm really grateful for the guest for sharing it and coming forward to talk about it because it could look like you're just being very ungrateful. Like something good's happened, but oh, I'm sad. But actually, it is something that other previous guests have mentioned to me. When people have got married after they've lost a spouse or something, there's this sense of happiness and this is lovely and great and there's a lot of love there, but it comes with a sense of grief because of what went before and that can happen in all kinds of different situations.

Chris: 49:55

Yeah. the way you said it there that is something I think I can relate to that feeling of something good's happening why do I feel sad

Claire: 50:04

yeah Yeah, I think that's probably the case with a lot of different people who are grieving, but especially with childlessness, perhaps. You can be at some really lovely events, lovely moments for other people or be sharing a lovely moment when they're telling you about it and just feel a deep inner sadness that it's not something that you will ever experience firsthand. So yeah, I think for some people, they'll really know instantly what that means and feels like. But it's good to educate other people because we don't want to make the assumptions when someone's going through something great that it's all good. They might be struggling with it and that's okay. So another way of helping people have conversations about grief in a more authentic way

Chris: 50:38

so high hopes for 2025 yes bring it on no no hang on it's Christmas first Christmas first on the new year on Christmas

Claire: 50:46

we'll be back I'm sure with another episode in the new year to let you know how it all went and then we'll start our 101 losses again. I've also got some Let's Chats ready to go. So yeah, it's exciting already.

Chris: 50:56

And we will both be healthy.

Claire: 50:58

That's the plan. And don't forget about Herman. If you know somebody who's feeling sad, I've had some lovely feedback lately from people who've either bought Hermans for themselves, just going through a tough time and just needing a bit of courage and wanting Herman with them. Or, you know, if you know someone who's grieving. And like I said in my last newsletter, I think it was, or the Herman post, doesn't have to be specifically for Christmas Day or New Year's Day or anything like that. he's not a gift that necessarily works with loads of other gifts he's a lovely surprise on a normal day just a normal day someone's going through they're the hardest days sometimes Christmas might be difficult for people but the day after when you're sat on your own reflecting on it can be even harder sometimes so a Herman turning up on a normal day I think is one of the best things that people could get so they're on the website thehermancompany.com don't forget about those if you know someone going through something tough and yeah that's it really if you want to support the podcast we're always grateful for financial support support that's on buymeacoffee.com slash the silent y and there's lots of other ways you can support us we love getting reviews on apple podcasts sharing an episode with a friend that's huge posting an episode on social media for us all that kind of stuff just helps us in a huge way if you can't support financially so there is a website page for supporting us and all the things you can do and they don't all cost money so if there's anything else you want to do to help us support this mission then pop over there

Chris: 52:16

and not forgetting just making contact dropping a message on social media or or emailing thesilentwhy at gmail.com. It's just lovely to hear from

Claire: 52:25

you. It is lovely to hear from you. Someone sent me a message the other day. I don't know if it had a name on it even, but it just said they'd gone through a particular kind of grief and they told me what it was. And that was it. And I just thought how lovely that someone felt like they just wanted to share with somebody and they used our website contact form just to type that into. And I'll always reply. So yeah, it's lovely to hear from people, even if it's just to say this is what I'm going through because you feel like you want to tell somebody. We're always here for that. So yeah, it's really lovely to hear from people. Always. I'm that needy. And if you haven't checked it out yet, then you definitely need to check out Christmas Tree 2024, which is on Chris's Instagram, @Chrissandys. which is the video we make every year of us collecting our Christmas tree it's getting more elaborate with the production so I don't know what we're going to do next year but yeah it's always something fun to give you a smile and you can check out obviously the Silent Y social media we're on most things and also Herman is on Instagram where you can see pictures of him and I post pictures of other people's Hermans when they send them to me as well Hermans have been travelling around the world more than me I'm very jealous of the pictures I get from Hermans in America in India they're all over the place so yeah if you want to see those then check out Instagram - @thehermancompany

Chris: 53:34

well travelled. They are indeed. Are we doing a Hopi or a Happy Christmas?

Claire: 53:39

I feel like we should be different and stick with Hopi.

Chris: 53:41

Hopi. It's

Claire: 53:42

always good to have hope. Not everyone will be happy. You can have hope. You can't merge the two words because they both start with H.

Chris: 53:48

Hopi? Yeah, let's stick with... It's a different thing altogether.

Claire: 53:51

You'd like that. You love hops.

Chris: 53:53

Wishing you... Oh, yes, that's true. I was thinking bouncing. Oh, yeah, not rabbits. As opposed to... More beer. Yeah. The sweet smell of a fresh hop.

Claire: 54:01

Yeah, you're pining for that at the moment.

Chris: 54:03

Wishing you a nice case a very hopey

Claire: 54:07

christmas

Chris: 54:13

we wish you a hopey christmas we wish you a hopey christmas okay

Claire: 54:20

I was going to see what shape your lips made to see if you're going to start with we or hope. We wish you a hopey Christmas.