Loss 59/101: Loss of a police career and self-worth: Ken Anderson

#117.  What do you do when the career you love is gone, and you're barely staying afloat? And why is helping yourself so much harder than helping others? 

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #59 of 101: Loss of a police career and self worth

In this episode, we meet Ken Anderson from York, England; a retired police officer whose life took an unexpected turn after a nearly 20-year career as a response officer, firearms officer, and trainer.

Ken's front-line career came to an abrupt end after a serious car crash, during a police chase, which left him injured. What followed was a deeply challenging period of his life. In July 2023, Ken hit rock bottom as he struggled with depression, self-doubt, and the heartbreak of losing the "police family" he cherished.

But this isn’t just a story about loss—it’s about hope. Ken shares how three simple words—“Are you OK?”—were a turning point that prevented him ending his life.

Today, he’s transforming his pain into purpose, advocating for mental health awareness and meaningful connection.

This conversation is a raw and honest look at:

• The emotional toll of emergency service careers
• How to navigate the depths of depression and loss
• The power of reaching out and supporting one another in times of need

We also explore how Ken is finding new purpose and meaning after such a profound life shift.

And of course, we wrap up with our signature question: What’s your Herman? Curious to learn more? Visit thesilentwhy.com/herman.

For more about Ken visit:
www.phoenix-rises.co.uk
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ken-anderson-8842b0313/

And for more about Andy's Man Club (mentioned in the episode), visit:
https://andysmanclub.co.uk/

Transcript

0:02

My name is Ken, and I'm here to talk about the loss of my police career, which led to my loss of self worth. Welcome to The Silent Why the podcast exploring 101 different types of loss through the stories of those who have lived them. I'm Claire. And I'm Chris, and this is loss 59 of 101 and today we're joined by retired police officer Ken Anderson from York in England, who had to step away from a career that he loved. The pride that I had for it was just amazing, even now, just the smile on my face when I think about how much I challenged myself and how much I'd worked to get into the position that I had real pride in. It was just really special time for me. Ken served nearly 20 years in the police force as a response officer, Firearms Officer, a trainer, but sadly, this all ended in a way that he never expected, following a nasty car crash during a police chase. Ken's front line career ended abruptly due to injury. What happened next triggered a mental health decline that brought him to rock bottom in july 2023. It's awful to say, but when I was standing on the edge of the cliff wanting to jump and I was at peace with what I was about to do, my love for my children, my love for my partner, my love for my family, my love for my friends, was completely and utterly consumed and overpowered by my hatred of self, I would die for my children. That is a strong, powerful love, isn't it, but to have a deeper hatred that you would kill yourself, that's a tough thing to fight and work through. His journey through depression, self doubt and grief over losing the 'police family' that he loved is raw and powerful, but this story isn't just about loss. It's also about hope. Today, Ken is passionate about helping others avoid what he went through. Through his business, Phoenix Rises, he delivers communication workshops and advocates for workplace change, especially for men struggling in silence. Hold on, no matter how bad you think it is, even if it's just the hope that tomorrow will be better, hold on to that, and you will get there. And there's so many people out there that will support you and talk to you and help guide you through things. It may not seem like it, but what's fact and what's thought? He's here to share, how three simple words, are you okay? Saved his life, and how he's turning his pain into purpose. This conversation dives into the depths of depression, the challenges of emergency service careers, and why we need to rethink how we support each other at work and beyond. And of course, we'll end with our signature question, what's your Herman? If you're curious about that, you can find out more at www.thesilentwhy.com/herman let's get started. Here's Ken sharing a glimpse into his life today. My name is Ken Anderson. I am a recently retired police officer. I was in the police for almost 20 years in a variety of different roles, ranging from a response officer to firearms. Spent five years in firearms policing, which was pretty cool, and then I moved into the training department, and an average week for me, it's a bit varied at the moment because I've started my own business delivering communication and well being workshops. So it's very much juggling childcare and home life, the housework and all this stuff, because I'm effectively the state owned parent now, but also trying to get a business up and running and doing what it needs to do. And that's a business called Phoenix Rises, which speaks volumes, isn't it? Clearly, we'll come on to that. I'm sure, in the next half an hour or so, loads to talk to you about the policing in particular. Clearly, the reason we're talking to you is because of the painful end to that and what's happened since then. But before we get on to that, 20 years in the police, there must have been just so much good as well in that time to keep you in the force for that long. So give us a bit of an idea as to what being a serving officer, what was your experience as you look back on the good times, the better times within the police So much of it was fantastic, the people that you work with. I remember when I joined I was 2122 years old, so I was still a kid, you know, I'd finished my A levels. I was meant to go to university, but took a gap year instead, which kind of got extended, and by the time I'd finished my gap year, I thought, You know what? I want to be a police officer. That's what I want to do. So joined the police, and I loved it. I'd have worked for free every day if I could. I come from quite a small community. We call it a town, but people that come in and see it call it a big village, and seeing the different sides of life was just so eye opening for me as a youngster, you know, working in places like Leeds City Center and Bradford, all these West Yorkshire posts, I loved it, and I loved helping people, and every day I felt like I was making a difference. I was either protecting vulnerable victims, or I was turning up at a job and you'd be arresting a burglar that's caught in a house. And the adrenaline was just great. The camaraderie amongst your peers was just phenomenal. They call it the policing family, and it genuinely did feel like a family. When I first started, everybody had bought into the same culture and ethos. Everybody wanted to make a difference. Everybody wanted to do the 30 years in policing and then retire. And there was just such scope for you could move sideways into different departments. You could get promoted. It police chases. I loved it. I was a bit of an adrenaline junkie with some of the stuff, you know, but driving down motorways with blue lights on and chasing all these stolen cars. I was first on the scene when Jimmy Savile died. That was quite a weird one dealing with that situation there, before it had all come out, what he'd been responsible for, but seeing his, the memorabilia and things like that that was in the house, it was just unreal. Again, thinking straight off at that point. You know, when you go to like icebreaker sessions and conferences and things, and you have to write down a fact about yourself and then try and match it with somebody in the room, you must, you must have, you must have so many facts about you that would just make people stop and think, Oh, my word. I've got to find somebody in this room, that was the first on the scene when notorious Jimmy Savile died. I know well, the thing was when it first happened, and there were the rumors and the mutterings about what he'd done, but he was, he was given a, basically a state funeral, in effect, wasn't he was a national treasure at the time or viewed as that. And so it was a story that you could tell and talk about. And then when it all came out, what happened? I stopped telling it for years. I didn't, I didn't want to be associated with that man in any way, shape or form. So for somebody outside of this country, I mean, they might not be aware that police officers don't generally carry guns. You spent five years, so a quarter of your two decades in the police as a Firearms Officer. So what was the step like, from not having a gun to suddenly, now you've got uniform and gun and you're back out on the streets? What was that like? It was exceptionally hard and exceptionally tough, but I'd been in what's called response policing, so that's driving around to your 999, calls, domestics, burglaries, fights, that kind of thing. I've done that for about 10 years, and it wasn't that it became monotonous. It was just that there was no challenge to it anymore. You'd seen pretty much everything that there was to see. You'd I'd dealt with everything from petty thefts to murders, whatever it was, and there was no challenge for me anymore in going to the jobs. And I wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to better myself. So I thought, what's what's the hardest, toughest job to get into in policing? And then Firearms Officer popped up on the internet, and I was, oh, yeah, oh, I'll try my hand at that, see how it goes. And the further along each stage I got, and I kept getting through, the more it became, Oh, hold on. I might actually be good enough for this. I might actually have what it takes. And there was stage after stage of interviews and applications and vetting processes. There were days when you had to go and do different scenarios, or you'd have to go and shoot guns on a range, never having shot a gun before him alive. And then there was a three month intensive course. The course itself, I can't remember the exact figures. It was something like a 50% failure rate on it, because they wanted the best of the best. They wanted people who were physically and mentally resilient enough to go into positions that nobody else wanted to and stay calm, focused, controlled, and deal with really safety critical high level incidents. And as it turned out, I got through it all. I just kept passing each stage, everything that was asked of me, I was able to do, and I loved it. And then coming to Firearms Officer, it was surreal to think that I'd been entrusted with these weapons that were illegal to 99.9% of the UK population, and I'm walking around Astor picking up my lunch during a shift with a Glock on my leg and 15 rounds of ammunition in it, or I'm patrolling Leeds City Center and having to walk through a shopping mall with my long arm carbine now, which is basically like a big rifle. And I'm thinking the levels of trust and responsibility that had been empowered on me and the pride that I had for it was just amazing. Even now, just the smile on my face when I think about how much I challenged myself and how much I'd worked to get into the position that I had real pride in, it was just really special time for me. When we talked to people about if they've lost somebody, there's a death, then you speak to them to begin with, and you can see how much they loved that person. So you can see what the grief is going to be like. And I feel like it'd be like that with you. You can feel and see the love that you've had for this career. But because of the podcast you're on, we know that there's going to be a grief coming, and I can already feel a little bit of how much that must have hit you when it had to end. So tell us a little bit about what happened towards the end of that career. Towards the end of it, I was in a armored police response vehicle, and we were sent to a job that involved a stolen vehicle and some pretty nasty gentlemen inside it. And as we were driving towards it, the vehicle clocked us, made its way towards us, and we were involved in a head on collision. It was about, I'd say, a 70 mile an hour. Head on, we were doing about 20 miles an hour. They were doing about 50. And as a result, I seriously injured my back. And because of that back injury, I wasn't able to perform my duties as a police officer while I was recuperating. So I had to take a prolonged period of sick leave whilst I was trying to recover. Ultimately, what happened was I'd herniated a disc in my back, and if anybody has ever experienced that before, it is excruciating. It is absolutely crippling and such a debilitating injury to how and while I was off work, I had my daughter, my partner and I had a first child, and I started to feel little inklings of things creeping in, where I wanted to pick her up and put her down in the cot, but I wasn't able to bend over properly because of my back, and I was getting quite limited with certain things, and the distance From my my direct line managers seem to increase where I wasn't being checked in on I felt like people thought I was swinging the lead and just taking his time off because I'd had a kid, and he's basically extended paternity leave. And so I eventually returned to work, and I started on what's called restricted duties, so you gradually just ease back in with the intention of going back onto firearms. And one day, I was just told, out of nowhere, you're moving to an office. Well, I had no say in it. I had no choice in it. And all of a sudden, my firearms career just seemed to be disintegrating in front of me. You know, I've been told to move somewhere else, which means I'm going to be further away from doing my training and getting back into the front line and all this. And I was moved into a small, little office. COVID hit. It then became what's effectively a COVID hub. So I was taking sickness reports from police officers and giving them advice on whether they had to self isolate after coming into contact with different people, to have gone from vasca by your arms, working really hard, to then becoming a with no disrespect, almost like a doctor's surgery receptionist really started to play my mental health, and I've always been quite positive. So I thought, You know what, I'm gonna still make something of my police career. I've always wanted to go into training, but I never thought I'd do that until later on in my career, once I'd started to wind down a bit physically, training would be a good role to go into. But as it was, I applied for a train as well. Got in there early and started to find my mojo again, in some ways. And I was good at what I did as a trainer. I was passionate. I was experienced. New recruits were coming in, and they'd listen to me because they knew that I'd been there and I'd lived it, and I'd experienced all these things in policing, and I had a lot of a lot to teach them, and a lot that they could learn from me. But inside, I was breaking every day. I was hiding it, and although outside, on the outside, I was excelling and doing really well at my job and getting lots of recognition for what I was doing, on the inside, I was falling apart. I then had my second child, and again, I still had my back injury. I was still recuperating from dad. There was very little help in regards to it, because everywhere you turn, it's just, well, it's a back injury. You know, it could take a week, it could take a year, we don't know. And my whole policing career just seemed to be slipping through my hands like sand. And the more I tried to hold on to it, the more the sand seemed to slip through my fingers. I keep on trying to put my other hand underneath and catch that sand and pass it back in from pound to but the more you do that, the less sand there is getting passed. And it really started to knock me for six and my mental health took a beating, but I hadn't realized I'd come to work on a Monday, put my lunch in the fridge. On a Friday, I'd take it home and throw it in the bin. I was hiding in an office or hiding in the toilet during my lunch break because I didn't want to speak to people. But then I'd go in the classroom and I'd be passionate and I'd be funny, and I'd be engaging with the students, and I'd be motivating them and reassuring them and listening to their problems and being empathetic and doing everything that was required of me as a trainer. But then as soon as that classroom door shut. I was in bits, and I hid it so well. Nobody had a clue, nobody had an idea, and eventually they my sergeant said, you're not quite yourself. Have a have a couple of days off. Take the rest of the week off. And I did, and taken the week off turned into two weeks, turned into a month, turned into two months, and my mental health spiralled so quickly, so deeply that in July of last Year, I attempted to take my own life. I remember it vividly, certain elements of it, some parts are just a blur or are blocked out. But as a result of that, along with my physical injury, that was what I now refer to as my phoenix rising moment. That was a moment when my life restarted. It almost reset, and I started to work towards getting to where I am now, which is by no means the finished article, and I don't think over will be but it's a better path than I was on before. Thank you for sharing that. It reminds me of one of our very first, one of our early podcast episodes with Dan Richards. He used a phrase that we've heard a few times about you know, relates to one of the best things about hitting rock bottom is that gives you the most solid foundation to then build on, or to rebuild on, to rise from that moment and then, you know, remembering what you were saying when you had that massive smile on your face about the police and the family feel and the camaraderie and just how tight that was, which I guess, was even further elevated when you became a Firearms Officer. There was just even even more focused camaraderie and team spirit to then suddenly feel like you're at work, but feeling so alone and hiding stuff and it just feels like it's you against the world, is a stark difference. Were you aware when you were, you know, leading training sessions within behind the scenes feeling very different. Were you aware then of I've got problems, or is it only now, really on reflection, that you can recognize that, you know, I was not in a good place? I think that one of the skills that I learned as a police officer, no, in fact, not just as police officers, as a man, as a bloke, was compartmentalizing emotions and feelings and being able to bury things down a lot, and so I might have had these negative thoughts or feelings, but because there was no one to talk to, or I didn't feel like I could talk to anyone, then it was my problem to solve, and the easiest way for me to Solve that problem was to try and forget about it. The easiest way for me to deal with a tragic thing that I see at work is to try and forget about it, to try and put it to bed. And often, as a police officer, you're not you'd actually have the chance to process things. You know, one minute you are dealing with giving CPR to someone, and they don't make it the next you're being sent to a job where you're having to console an old person who's been burgled. Then you're going to a pub to break up a fight there. So your emotions are up and down, up and down, and the amount of calls that you go to in a shift, 1015, 20 different calls, quite easily, your emotions are up and down. So you you do learn very quickly how to compartmentalize these aspects of emotions that you see and have to deal with. And so that's one of the things that I did, and I became quite good at, was just switching off from it. And it was so detrimental. It was the worst thing I could have done, because if I had felt empowered enough to speak to someone, and I don't mean going and speaking to a doctor or anything like that. Let's go way back before that, just speaking to someone at work and going, you know what? I'm having a really crap day. I've got this going on. Can we have a brew? But you don't, because you don't want to put your burdens onto anyone else you train to take people's bends away from them, to protect other people, to look after other people, to protect the vulnerable. You You don't show your own vulnerability. And that's not just police officers. I think that's men in general, have of a protective nature about them and showing any kind of vulnerability, they feel often that it's a sign of weakness and that they cannot be as strong for their family as they need to be, or as strong for their French or whoever it is as they need to be. And I think breaking that stigma is a big battle. Looking back, I saw all the signs, literally, if you if you look at people with depression or anxiety, and you see online, oh, here's 10 things to look out for. Oh, yeah, I nailed 12 of them. 12 of those 10 things. I was smashing them out the back. You know, probably made up a few of my own along the way as well. But it wouldn't have mattered. Somebody would have said something and I'd have downplayed it. No, I'm fine. I'm all right. It's just one of those days. You know how it is, and you bat it off, you don't,there's no honesty. There's no openness and transparency there. When it comes to emotion like that. Do you think it's harder in a career like this, then, because you guys, the police are look to for to hold themselves together. You don't go to a policeman if you're in a really bad place and expect them to start crying or breaking down. You know you we you have to be strong. It's the expectation that you will deal with the knife crime, the gun cry, whatever's going on, the big, scary situations that the general public don't want to be in or face. So you're trained for that, and very intense situations as well, let alone facing. You know, everything the worst that humans do to each other. In my head, I'm thinking, How do you do that as a job? But then deal with your emotions effectively when it comes to being at home and letting yourself go and letting yourself feel things, because you've probably got a family at home that are also looking for you to be strong at times like we all have. Do you think the training in this kind of job makes it harder to do that? Or is would that be unfair? No, I think the training and not just for the police. Let's look at all emergency services. Let's look at the military, let's doctors. You know, all of the training is around providing a good service to everybody else. There is very little training. It's almost cursory, if anything about providing a good service to yourself and how to look after yourself. There will be tokenistic things. You might get a screen saver pop up saying, We really value well being and speak to occupational health. But you could be on the first of your late shifts, and so you've got two late shifts, two night shifts, four days off. You then come into your two earlys on a weekend. You then back onto your late you know, when are you meant to be able to contact occupational health on a Monday to Friday night until five, eight till four, in fact, when your shift pattern dictates that you will not cross paths with them for two weeks. So if you have a problem, you've got to wait two weeks just to make a phone call. I'm pretty sure you buried it by that point, and you've moved on because you've had another problem to deal with or another one. So the training is brilliant in regards to protecting members of the public, giving a good service to members of the public. So like you said, not crying in front of members of the public and all that. But I think the training in a lot of these emergency services, frontline type roles, military is very lacking when it comes to looking at genuinely looking after yourselves. So now, having come out of the police force, that chapter is now over. How much does that feel like a loss, like I've lost my career? How do you summarize the sort of acknowledging the grief of losing that part of me, that identity, that role, that occupation, I refer to it as grief, quite a lot that I'm grieving for, not necessarily the loss of career, but the loss of me, because I joined when I was 21 and I spent 20 years of my adult life, effectively all of my adult life as a police officer, and then it was taken away from me, not by me, not by me having done anything wrong, or me having made a conscious decision to have left so I've had who I've become, Ken the policeman. Ken the copper. That's who I've been for 20 years as an adult, my friendships inside and outside of work have formed around it. My family have viewed me as that. My kids grew up talking about me like that, and even though I've now left I still haven't been able to tell my children that I no longer a police officer. We drive past a police station and they say, Are they your friends or where? Where are your friends going? And, oh, look, is that a police car like yours? I still haven't been able to do that myself, so the grief and loss that I have is for you. Not just the career, because a job is a job, but this was this was so much more. This was a lifestyle. You could be an accountant and go from one accountancy firm to another, to another to another, over 20 years. And in policing, you're a police officer, and you're a police officer when you're off duty and you're going down the supermarket and you see a shoplifter, or you see some, a couple having an argument. What? What would the public expect you to do when you are there? How would it look if you didn't step in and a woman was seriously assaulted, and then it came out in the press, there was actually a police officer there watching it all. It wouldn't be that there was a police officer there who was with his two young children and his partner, and didn't have a radio, didn't have anything else, wasn't able to get involved. That wouldn't matter. So you go from it being consuming your life to all of a sudden nothing, and it it's very similar to losing a loved one who is always there, always around, and then all of a sudden, not. And it doesn't matter how much time you've got to prepare for that loss, it still hurts just the same. And it's the the why? Why? Me? Why does it happen? The same question that everybody asks when it comes to why that person? Why? So stupid? So yeah, it's the big part for me, is losing what I would call my identity, almost it's hard. You mentioned the why questions there. It's something we ask all our guests. Is what their relationship has been like with the question why? Because quite often. It changes over time, and depending on you know what's what's going on in life. Is that something that, obviously you've had those questions, are they still things that sort of you ask or that haunt you? Why me? Yeah, more so to do with my depression, as to why? Why have I got this? Why am I not strong enough to not feel this way? Why am I unable to move on from it? And probably the big one for me is, why can't I solve this Why can't I go to an Erra of different incidents as a police officer and solve other people's problems, day in day out for 20 years. Why can I come home and solve issues at home? The light bulb's gone fine. I'll fix it. We've run out of this fine. I'll go out and buy it. Solve all these problems, but I can't solve my own. And that feeling of uselessness that I have as a result, is powerful. People talk about love being a really powerful emotion and feeling, and it is, you know, it's but I feel like negative emotions and feelings are more powerful a lot of the time, and it it's awful to say, but when I was standing on the edge of the cliff wanting to jump and I was at peace with what I was about to do, my love for my children, my love for my partner, My love for my family, my love for my friends, was completely and utterly consumed and overpowered by my hatred of self. And that's a hell of a lot. I would die for my children. You know, if something was happening, I would step in. I'd die for them. I'd take a bullet. Man, that is a strong, powerful love, isn't it that you would die for somebody else, but to have a deeper hatred, that you could kill yourself rather than live for love? That's a tough thing to fight and work through. Considering everything that has led up to where we are now, and the end of of that police career was all as a result of things external to you, so, circumstances, systems, criminal activity, injury. Why do you think that became, actually, then something that that darkness became about yourself so sort of like a hatred of self when you're not to blame for what has happened to you. Why do you think that's something that has been turned, or was turned into a hatred for self? I think that there's several factors involved. I think that some of it will stem from the way I have grown up, the way I've lived my life up until that point has helped make me who I am in regards to how I view myself in certain situations and how much I want to help other people. And it's simple things such as the eldest of three, two younger brothers, and as the oldest, you always get told, right, look after your little brother. Look after of them be nice to them. So things like that, as I'm growing up helped me become a police officer, because it becomes natural for you to help those that need help. So you tend to find that you do fall into those kind of role. But for me to have those overpowering thoughts, part of it, I think, is the way that depression can work, the synapses that get triggered in your brain and the chemical, the lack of certain chemicals in your brain have an impact. So some of it is naturally going to happen to me, regardless of anything. I think that a bit of the trauma of what I experienced, but for me, the big one is probably the not having the why I can't blame a stolen car for me being there because my colleague was in the car and they're okay. I can't but I'm not. Why me? Why am I different? Why am I not good enough to recover to the same level that they have recovered to or why am I not strong enough to be able to face these demons and yet on social media or whatever format you look at, here's when I was at my lowest, and here's the 10 steps that I took to getting better. Okay, I'll try those, but they haven't worked. Why? What? Why am I that broken that they don't work for me? Well, try this medication. Okay, I'll try, but that, but that's not working for me. So what? Why is this medication that works for all these other people, then not working for me? And so it becomes an onslaught of negativity, which makes that so overpowering, the feeling of it must just be me. I must be the one at fault, because everything that has been suggested or has not gone wrong for other people has gone wrong for me and my my depression isn't even anything to do with me thinking, Oh, woe is me. What's the next bad thing that's going to happen. That's not how my depression works for me. My depression works in a way that makes me hate myself. I hate who I am as a core person, and it became more prevalent since leaving the police, because before, when I was in the police, people would say, describe yourself well, I'm motivated, I'm caring. I look out for other people. I'm a good community. All these got me and when I left the police you asked me this question, I felt like I'd failed at everything. I'd failed at being a police officer, I'd failed at being a Firearms Officer, I'd failed at being a trainer, I'd failed at being a parent, failed at being a partner, failed at being a son, a brother. None of it was really fact, it was all thoughts. And being able to differentiate between the two is quite hard sometimes, but that is what really pushed home a lot of it. So when I talk about how it's all me, it's it's because of the thoughts, not the facts, around what has pushed me there one thing. I'm wondering about, what part anger has played in this, if at all, because you've got the, you know, the nasty gentlemen who are the catalyst of all this, you've got, you know, this feeling of failure, the hatred of self, this inability to be able to fix it. You know, you had a whole career of fixing other people's problems, and now you can't fix yourself. That's very frustrating, and probably makes you feel a bit weak when you've been such a strong person in society. And I know a bit about what that feels like, and if you're a can do person, it's debilitating to not be able to sort things out for yourself. Has that led to anger at any stage? Yeah, I went through a phase of having real anger towards the police for the way that I was treated. I didn't have anger towards the people that had crashed the car into mine. It's what they do. It's what you expect. They're in a stolen car. They don't want to be caught. You're between them and freedom. What do you expect them to do? So yeah, I can kind of accept that. I can accept the fact that my body was injured in a particular way. Okay, we're not angry about that, but I was angry about how I was treated. Angry about the lack of communication. I was angry about the hypocrisy around we're a policing family. I'd never have I say I'd never abandoned my family like that, but at the edge of a cliff, I almost did that I resented being part of that family because of where I'd ended up and the lack of support that I'd had along the way. And in hindsight, it's the processes that failed more than anything else, the lack of things that were in place to be able to identify and assist people that were struggling, which are now deeply passionate about changing, not just in the police, but in all walks of life, because a lot of men will go through. Do awful, horrendous things or just bad things, but they won't talk about it, and it will eat them up. It will get to them. And they might not end up physically on that cliff ledge, but mentally, they will be there more more times than they'd maybe admit. And they would maybe have those thoughts cross their mind more often than they'd care to admit. And if people could talk and just open up that little bit more, I think that that would drive real change, because my hatred, as much as it was initially at the police for the broken systems in place, the overarching hatred that I have was for myself, and that was because of my mindset. I think we're all sort of with you now. We can see everything you've been carrying and working through, and so this took you to the edge of this cliff. What we don't really know yet is What stopped you and what brought you back from the edge. So talk us through a little bit about the next stage and how you kind of pulled yourself back from being in that place. I didn't, funnily enough, the night before, I'd written letters to both of my children and my partner. I didn't sleep that night, got up in the morning, got the kids dressed, took them to nursery, them to school, and then set off driving to the coast. All the way I was thinking, I know what I'm going to do when I get there. Stop. Put your foot on the brake. Come on, Ken, don't be an idiot. You know what's going to happen. Turn around put you but I I've never experienced autopilot, absolute autopilot. My body was not listening to my head at all. They were so disconnected from each other, it was unreal. And I get to the cliffs, and I'm at this viewing point, and really weirdly, it was a viewing point that you had to pay to go to. And so I'm walking from my car across this car park, thinking I'm gonna have to pay four or five quid here to go and jump off this click. What's all that about? That seems madness. The weird thing was that I was so calm about it at the time, and bizarrely, the card chip and pin thing didn't work. So he just goes, Oh, just go through and come pay later. And I remember thinking, well, that's not going to happen, because I'm not coming back this way. And I must have been on the cliff two, three hours, maybe at a guess, just crying, uncontrollably, sobbing, and then calm, something just stopped. And it was like the clouds suddenly started having rays of sunshine break through them. The birds were just a bit slower as they were flying through the air. The waves weren't crashing. They were just almost always kissing and stroking the shoreline. It everything just became calm, and I felt from the top of my head all the way down to my bottom, this wave of peace. And I felt that peace was what I was going to do. There was no regret, there was no fear, there was no thought about anything, but I was peaceful, and for the first time in a long time, I felt easy about what I was going to do, until I started to climb over the railing, at which point, unbeknownst to me, there was A woman behind me, a little old lady, who just said, are you okay? And my first thought was, I can't do this in front of her. And so I stepped back down, and that was, that was the moment. It wasn't me, it wasn't anything else. It was three words from the complete stranger, and I wish that I knew who she was. I wish that I could see her now and go, I'm still a bit broken, but you probably don't know this, but thank you, because all you said was, are you okay? And it sounds almost made up. It sounds like, oh, well, that's a brilliant story and a tagline to put on something, but it is 100% Gospel true. And from that point, people got involved. Police were called blah, blah, blah, and that prevented anything further from happening. But it wasn't me. I was ready, I was going, and it was somebody else just checked in. At the right time. Wow, that's an important message, isn't it? Checking in with people. I wish people would do it before they get to the cliff face, and that's why I'm really passionate about it. Now. What I'm trying to do now is to get people to communicate more. I'm not a fan of the term well being I'll be honest I'm a massive advocate for it, but there is something about me as a bloke that just finds Well being a little bit woke, a little bit feminine, because it normally carries connotations such as self love and well being and all this kind of stuff. And a lot of guys who were in a workplace environment, if somebody comes in and says, We've got so and so coming in to give you a well being talk, they're gonna switch off and think, Oh, really, where's the incense. Where's this? For me, I'm passionate about communication. It's what I spent 20 years dealing with, going into a job, going into a house, not knowing what was behind the door, but having to convince one of those people that the best thing that they could do was to be arrested. I mean, how do you do that? Not to communicate? And communication sounds like problem solving. It sounds like right? I'm going to listen to what your problem is, and I'm going to help come up with a resolution that in itself, feels a bit more masculine. And so if you're trying to get people to talk, mainly men to talk, and open up more, I'm not sure that well being is necessarily the best terminology to be using. But maybe if people start or self help and all this sort maybe if people started thinking, right, I'm going to communicate more. And so I'm trying to get into the people's minds, right? Let's communicate about things. Let's communicate about problems. Let's communicate about issues. Active listening, bring all these skills in from policing. You find that just people venting a little bit. I find it really cathartic doing what I do, because I'm talking about what's happened every single day, and feel quite strange about it sometimes, because I'm like, Do I really have to keep talking about it, but I do, because how can I break down stigmas and barriers to communication and empower other people to be able to talk about it if I'm not doing it myself, and I'm a six foot two, bearded ex firearms officer who's saying talk so many people wait until it's too late and go. I wish they'd have just spoken to me. Well, the onus shouldn't be on them to speak to you. Communication works both ways. Why don't you communicate with them? Why don't you speak to them? And I think that that can make a real difference, because I didn't respond to this woman when she asked, Are you okay? I'd She probably thought I was the most ignorant person in the world, because I just stared forwards. I might have shaken my head, I think, but that was it. But how powerful were those three words at that right time? And imagine if you then had the power to say something to someone else that could just ease a burden a little bit, take a little bit of that weight off. What a change you could make in the world. And it's not a preachy thing. It's a genuine thing. How often, how much better do you feel when you've had a right rant, when your football team's lost, or your partner's an idea, or whatever, and you just blow off some steam? It It feels great. Women are generally quite good at it. Now if Claire, if you have an argument with Chris, right? You're gonna, you're gonna go up to your mates, your girly mates, and you're gonna go, you'll never guess what Chris dis, they'll will be, what did he say? What did you say? What happened next? And you will be spilling it until there's no more details left. It doesn't happen, though, does it? No, no. Hypothetically speaking, if that happened, yeah, Chris, if you were to go up to your mail mates and say, Oh, you'll never guess what Claire did last night, nine times out of 10, they will turn around and go, right, Chris, what you want to do is, bang, bang, bang. Men want to problem solve. So how does that then make you feel about, oh, well, yeah, maybe it isn't a big deal. Maybe I could have just sorted that myself. If my friends could fix it. Why can't I fix it? And straight away, you shut down. And so next time you have a problem, you're not going to speak teammates, because you're going to think, well, they're just going to tell me how to fix it, and so you lose those barriers to communication, whereas Claire, you'll be able to go, guess what he's done this week, and off you go, because you know that people are listening and people are communicating with you. Yeah, we are better at it. I'd really think that you're in a very key position with with your history, with what you learned in the police, but also being who you are as a male, I think that is really, really valuable, especially for people coming out of these careers. I'm not saying that you need to specialize in that, but we've spoken to three people that have come out of the military because of medical issues or problems or being injured in combat, and all three of them have got stories of attempting to take their life or getting very close to it. And obviously there's a disconnect somewhere between these careers, and they'd all say the same thing, real family feel when they're in it. Loved their careers, such a loss to come out of it. But there's, there's an issue there, when they do come out of it, having to then deal with the next step and how they're actually feeling and the breakdown in mental health. And you're in a great position to do that, because a lot of these careers, especially if they're men like you said, they're not going to necessarily want the the loving kind of come here. Let's chat about well being, do some yoga kind of stuff, which is great for some people, but we have to admit, that's not going to fit everybody, and there's no reason why it should. So I think what you've got is a very unique a very key product that's needed. Yeah, and for me, there's no one fix. What works for me on a Monday won't necessarily work for me on a Tuesday, so I need to draw on something else, and I've got a toolbox now of different things that I can try and use at different times to help me, but I'm still lacking certain tools in certain environments, so I'm I'm still growing and learning and trying to improve on that, but so Is everyone, and you're never too clever to stop learning things like just taking those first steps into talking. I just think are massive things like Andy's Man Club, for me has been such a big help in my process, because even if I wasn't talking, I was listening. Jjust tell us about Andy's, what. is that in a nutshell? Oh, Andy's Man Club is fantastic. It is basically a men's support group to deal with not just suicide, it's largely to do with suicide, but men who are struggling. And the first time I went, if you've ever seen the film Fight Club, you know there's that scene where Edward Norton meets meatloaf for the first time, and he's crying into him, and he ends up with tear marks on his T shirt in the shape of face. I thought it was going to be like that, but it's not. It's just a load of blokes from all walks of life that basically talk one at a time about what's getting under the skin that wake what's been good that week, a couple of random questions about what their favorite sandwich is or whatever to lighten the mood, and it just enables discussion. It breaks down some barriers, and that, in itself, has helped me in certain areas, but it's also empowered me to be able to take it that bit further and start doing what I'm doing now, which is really promoting targeted communication. So as the Phoenix rises, how are you feeling about yourself? Now, you know, at the lowest point we've talked about the self hate, how are you doing with yourself? I'm still up and down. I'm not going to lie and pretend that I'm not. I'm not at the same level of being at the cliff face that I was, but I'd be lying if I said that every day wasn't a battle, in some sense, particularly when it comes to having self worth about myself or feeling good enough for my family and my children. So the way that I describe it is almost like you can be an alcoholic, but not have you haven't had a drink for 20 years, but you're still an alcoholic. For me, I'm still depressed, even though I haven't attempted to do anything for 18 months, or whatever it is, and I think that I'm owning it a lot more now I'm facing up to the fact that it is a part of me. At the moment, it might be that in six months a year, I'm 100% better, and it's a distant memory, but at the moment, I'm, I don't know, a functioning depressive. Is that what you call me? I deal with things on a daily basis, and I have my battles, but I am in a much better place than I was, and I'm a lot more confident about getting to where I need to be, because I found a bit of passion again, and that's helping other people, and so I can compartmentalize some of the things that I'm doing to a certain degree, because I'm actively going out and helping other people, and I get that same sense of worth and purpose that I had from being a police officer, of going out and helping people, but doing it in a much more cathartic way. I'm managing my own time if, if LinkedIn starts to really bug me and I've got too much going on, I'll take the dog for a walk. Was in a full time job. I wasn't able to do that. I wasn't able to have those moments of wellness or well being, whatever you want to call it. So, yeah, it's I'm a work in progress. Definitely, I'm not going to preach that I'm fixed, and this is how I've done it. I think that's a lie. And I think a lot of people that say that they're they're selling things that there shouldn't really be. There is no quick fix, there is no 10 step program. The only thing that you will ever see consistently, because any kind of dealing with grief, dealing with trauma, dealing with depression or anxiety, is talk talk about it, journal it, talk about it, wherever it is. That's the one consistent thing. Just to touch on hope, because we use this podcast to explore, you know, where and how and when hope can exist in 101 different types of permanent loss. What's your experience been like of searching for hope or rediscovering hope, to invest in what you're doing now, to put your time, your effort, your energy, into being that big brother, helping other people, encouraging other people to talk, communicate. What's that been like with your relationship with hope? My hope has manifested itself a lot in the way that I am with my children, more than anything. I hope that they never feel like they can't talk about the feelings and emotions. I hope that they always have the self, self worth that I don't necessarily have, and I've started doing weird things, rather than like a at the end of the bedtime story, just saying, Good night, I get them to repeat back a little passage. This probably sounds quite daft, but I've got a two year old and a four year old that each night will say, 'Day is over, night has come. Today is gone. What's done is done. Face your dreams through the night. Tomorrow comes with a whole new light. I am braver than I believe. I am stronger than I seem, and I'm smarter than I think.' And at two and four, I've got them saying that, and I'm trying to instill that in them, that it's not just a tokenistic word thing that they happen to say, that as they get older, they're going to really understand it and believe it, because I think that that is important. The hope from all of this for me is that it's not going to be a cycle that repeats itself with my children, that I can break that cycle for them and for other people. Looking back at the person you were, sort of, I don't know which stage it would be, but at the stage when maybe you started to need some help, when someone could have helped, if they'd have known, or if you'd have known, to identify it, is there anything somebody could have done at that point? Do you think there are things that could have prevented you from from getting that far and getting to the cliff, if somebody, if there's a process in place, if somebody had said something, I'm thinking of the other people out there now that are in that place and they just don't know what to do. Yeah, 100% I could have been stopped at any number of points along this road from having that almost like the snowball effect, you know, if when I was first injured and gone off work, if my line manager had checked in more, if my colleagues at work has checked in more asked how I was doing if I didn't feel like I was the way that I was made to feel, being almost like a leper and not part of the team and out of the loop. So yeah, that there was simple things that can be done, and it's all down to communication. It's all down to just people. Are you okay? How are you doing? Is there anything that we can do today? What do you want to do today? There's small little bits of communication just to professionals. Quite often talk about what's called a stress bucket, and they say that, I don't know if you've heard this term used before, where it's like a dripping tap filling up this bucket, and it's not big, traumatic life events that took people over the edge. It's this constant dripping that eventually fills up this bucket, and then it starts overflowing, and that is what causes people to have bad episodes of stress and anxiety and depression. So if somebody is able to go, are you okay that can just release a little bit of that water to stop it overflowing. One of my best mates from the place, we probably haven't spoken to each other on the phone or sent WhatsApp messages in, I don't know, six weeks, something like that. But every day, every couple of days, we're sending each other two or three reels on Instagram or something like that, which is just not normally the ones that are offending each other, or something like that, you know, so pointing out how much of an idiot is, or something like that. But that is a form of communication that is endearment. When he sends me those reels. I know that at that moment in time, he was thinking of me, and likewise, when I send him some, he knows and it's our little way of checking in. And six weeks ago, a couple of reels were followed up with the WhatsApp. How are you doing? You know it, it doesn't have to be big, grand gestures. It doesn't have to be little things. It just stopped that bucket from overflowing. Once it starts getting to the top, by all means, start looking towards your Mental Health First Aiders and going to see your GP and all this on it. But way before that, it's your family, it's your colleagues, it's your peers, it's your neighbors, it's anybody that is in your life, just saying, How are you doing? Because how often you asked, Hey, are you okay? I'm fine. Ask it twice. You know that that's always a good one. How are you doing? I'm fine. How are you really well now that you're thinking, and it just give people those little opportunities. And if I'd have had those little opportunities along the way to be able to speak, to be able to vent, to get stuff off my chest, and it would have had a difference now, a shadow of a doubt, it would have had a difference If somebody's in the place now where they have lost a career like this early days, and they're wondering how they're going to get through this. Is there one particular thing you'd want to say to them, having been through it and on the other side of it, to sort of encourage them? Yeah, hold on, no matter how bad you think it is, just hold on. There's a fantastic book called'The boy, the mole, the fox and the horse', by Charlie Mackesy. And it's basically almost like a series of one page cartoons with some inspirational quotes on it. And one of the ones that stood out for me throughout my dark times while I was trying to get better, was the boy and the horse were standing in front of the Big Woods, and the boy says,'I can't see a way through'. And the horse says, 'Well, can you see your next step?' Boy says,'Yes'. And the horse goes, 'well just take that'. And that's all that you've got to do every day. It doesn't matter how far, just take that one step, because at the end of a week, you'll look back and you've gone seven steps that you didn't think that you would have taken in the first place. They don't have to be big. They don't have to be strides. There could be baby steps. It doesn't matter. It's all progress, and it's all heading towards the right path. And it will get better famous saying that everyone uses this too shall pass. It will the good times will pass, the bad times will pass. It will all pass. Just give it time. Can I push you on the hold on point and say anything particular that you would say, hold on to, if they'd say, hold on to what? I think that that is the question that people would have to answer their selves a lot. It might be a family member. It might be that you've actually got tickets to go and see of your football team that night, and you just want to see them. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. There will be something, even if it's just the hope that tomorrow will be better. Hold on to that, because tomorrow will be better. Tomorrow never actually comes, but tomorrow will be better, and you will get there. And there's so many people out there that will support you and talk to you and help guide you through things. Speak to me. If anybody wants to speak to me. Just do it by whatever means possible. Get in contact with me, and I will speak to you. I'll give you some support, bit of advice, and I'll listen. It may not seem like it, but there are so many people that would listen and would be there for you. You're probably in a place where you're thinking they wouldn't. Well, what's fact and what's thought? What's the difference? Fact? Right? The fact is, they would. They would listen. They would want to be there. It's those thoughts that are saying that they don't. So don't listen to the thoughts. Listen to the facts. Yeah, so true. There are so many people out there, but you're right. It's hard to see them sometimes. Just before we ask the last question, I just wonder, has it changed your view of the future at all? Do you view the future any differently because of everything you've been through? Yeah, I do. I feel a bit more positive, believe it or not, about the future. I have absolutely no idea how or what this future is going to hold for me, but there's something there, and I'm still at those woods, and I'm still looking where to go, but I'm just taking that, that one step at a time, and that's my future. My future is just one step at a time. I look back 18 months, I was on the edge of a cliff, and now I'm not I'm here. I'm talking to you guys, trying to make strides in other areas of my life, it's hard. Don't get me wrong, there is no quick fix, and there is no one size fits all, and there is no solution that's going to suddenly change everything. You have to work at it. A lot of it will be going against your learned behavior, because you'll have taught yourself to deal with things in a certain way, which has led up to the point that you're feeling the way that you're feeling. So you've got a lot to unlearn as well. I do. I've got 30 odd years of the way that I've been brought up and lived experiences and policing. I've got to unlearn all of that. Well, it won't take me 30 years to unlearn, but it's not going to take me 30 days either. I'm reminded again and again, just throughout our conversation of how, how much time, like you were just touching on the how much time, certainly with the police, is spent on training and shaping and teaching and leading you into different skills, different ways of coping, resilience, all that you need for that role, and then nothing you know, just a sudden end to unlearn that or to put you back into the world as a not a broken person, where you're no longer in that role. It's just a sudden change, and then suddenly it's you on your own self discovery, having to find the answers, having to make choices, make decisions without the support, the family, backup of the employer. One sec, sorry, you mentioned that you're alone. I want to challenge that, because you're not. You might feel alone, but I promise you that you're not alone. I promise you that as unique as you think you are, once you start speaking to people, you will find out that you're not you're unique in some respects, but in how you're feeling, that aloneness, that sadness, whatever it might be, that grief, turmoil, you will not be alone. There'll be so many people that will feel the same as you, and it's about finding those people, but you're not going to find them if you don't speak up, and if you don't start looking in the right places, if you start doing that as early as you can in this process of dealing with grief or trauma or whatever it might be, you will find the support. And the sooner that you do that, the sooner that weight comes off and you suddenly go, actually, I'm not alone in my thoughts. I'm not alone in my head. Keep going. With the final question, because amen to that, keep going, what's, what's your Herman? This was a really tough one for me. And my Herman is my attempt at taking my own life that then evolved into the business that I have started, which is Phoenix rises, because I had to do a lot of googling about the Herman thing, and so I looked at your website, and there were four main things that you use to describe what Herman was. It's something that's nourished, grown and cultivated, and through my personal struggle, that's what I've done. I've developed this resilience and this empathy and the deep understanding of things. So I've nourished it. I've grown it, and my healing has been slowly cultivated. In some ways, it's something that you can't buy with money. You can't buy what I've been through with money nobody would pay to have gone through that and ended up where I was. So my experience, in some ways, is quite unique to me, but it's not unique to others, but it's invaluable, because it comes from a real place. It comes from a genuine place of wanting to make a difference, not jumping on a bandwagon and trying to monetize something. It's a genuine passion for wanting to help people, so you can't go out and buy that something to be shared with others and given away. Well, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm sharing my story, I'm sharing my experience, I'm sharing my knowledge, I'm sharing my skills and my life. Not many people will openly spill out this much depth of their life to strangers, but I'm doing it all the time, so I'm just giving it away and something alive and breathing Phoenix rises. I want that to continue, and if I help one person, they will then take that away and they will naturally help somebody else, be it their partner, be it their children, be it their parents or a friend, whoever it is. So it is naturally evolving and growing, just through being paid forward, through people empowering themselves and bettering themselves. So my Herman is my business Phoenix Rises. I don't like calling it a business as such, but it is a real passion project for me that is making a difference. Never underestimate the power of what you can create out of your loss. So many incredible causes, charities and support systems start with one person, story of grief. We're so grateful to Ken for his honesty and how he's using his journey to help others. You can learn more about him and his business at www.phoenix-rises.co.uk or on LinkedIn. We'll put all the links in the show notes, including Andy's Man Club, which Ken referred to in the episode. And don't forget, you can find us at www.thesilentwhy.com or follow us on social media@TheSilent WhyPod for regular updates and inspiration. This is also a good time to remind you about our physical, Hermans, thoughtful, lovable, crocheted creatures that you can gift to anyone who's going through a tough time, especially men, where flowers, candles and chocolates might not quite seem right if you don't know what to say, let Herman do the talking. He comes with a small flyer explaining why you're sending him to help you out when it's hard to find the right words. Check out www.thehermancompany.com, for all the details. And as Christmas approaches, Herman makes a perfect gift for someone who's had a tough year or just needs to know that they're not alone. We'll leave you with this quote from the book Ken mentioned The boy, the mole, the fox and the horse' by Charlie Mackersy."Sometimes said the horse, sometimes what asked the boy, sometimes just getting up and carrying on is brave and magnificent."