Loss 58/101: Loss through precocious (early) puberty: Dannie-Lu Carr

#115. Have you ever considered the losses that might be encountered by going through puberty early? Have you even heard of precocious puberty? Let alone think about it in the context of grief.

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #58 of 101: Loss of agency over your body through precocious puberty

Meet Dannie-Lu Carr, who lives on the south coast of England in St Leonards-on-sea, and is an executive coach, author, singer-songwriter, actor and director.

Dannie-Lu went through precocious puberty (or early puberty) at the age of 8 years old, and she shares the subsequent losses she's encountered in her life since.

This is a very valuable conversation about an area of grief that people might not consider or know much about. We're hoping it will be a useful tool to help adults who might have children they know going through, but also to help anyone that went through it themselves and who is still processing what was taken from them through that experience.

Dannie-Lu shares about why it's only now, in her 40's, that she can talk about it, what she's learnt from it, how it's shaped how she sees herself (especially her body), and what she's gained from it.

For more about Dannie-Lu, visit:
https://dannielucarr.com/
https://portfoliodlc.com
https://flamingleadership.co.uk

Social media:
https://www.instagram.com/dannielucarr/
https://www.instagram.com/dannie_lu_carr_music

Music:
https://dannielucarrmusic.com

Podcast:
https://complicatedpod.co.uk/

Transcript

Dannie-Lu Carr: 0:00

Hi, I'm Dannie-Lu Carr, and I'm here to talk about precocious puberty and the loss of agency that that gave me of my body over the many years that followed.

Claire : 0:12

Dannie-Lu's here, you're here, and we're here. Welcome to The Silent Why. We're Claire and Chris Sandys, and we're on a podcast mission to find 101 different types of loss.

Chris: 0:21

Yes, and we're meeting those who've experienced them to see if, how and where hope has made a difference. This is loss 58 of 101 and I'm gonna say you've never heard a conversation like this before.

Claire : 0:34

How are we at 58 already?

Chris: 0:35

Well, it has taken three years.

Claire : 0:37

Yeah, yeah, true. And across all of those losses, we've looked at lots of different types, not just bereavements, and this subject is a great example of a loss that not many people would think about when you consider grief.

Chris: 0:48

In this episode, we're chatting to Dannie-Lu Carr about precocious puberty, or early puberty, which started for her around the age of eight years old.

Claire : 0:58

Dannie-Lu lives on the south coast of England and is an executive coach, author, singer songwriter, actor, director and soon to be podcaster, and she's going to share how such a natural thing can lead to a number of unwanted losses, especially when you're the only one you know going through it.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 1:14

I self limited probably a lot as well, because I was afraid my physical movement, my freedom of physical movement, got taken away from me, but I was also aware of suddenly, I'm thinking differently. I just felt like, oh, I don't know where I fit.

Chris: 1:27

Really put yourself in her position. Do you remember when you were a child? Which parts of you were you ashamed of, or did you hide, or were you teased about? What effect did that have on you then and maybe now still

Claire : 1:40

It's taken Danny Lou many years to finally be able to talk about the impact of going through precocious puberty.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 1:46

It's not a very nice place to be. It's quite an isolating place to be. And you lose complete agency over who you are, because it's your body and it's yourself, and you just feel like that. Everyone else has got a comment on it. It's very tough. It took me a long time, I reckon, up until about my mid 30s, I wouldn't have been able to even say that sense to you without like bursting into sobbing tears. The fact that I could talk about it now is amazing, but I couldn't for a long time because it was so icky.

Chris: 2:10

In this conversation, Danny Lou shares about the loss of agency she felt over her own body, but also other losses, including an eating disorder, experiencing a coerced abortion and being childless, not by choice.

Claire : 2:23

She also shares what she's gained from going through all this, how she feels now, how she can talk about it without crying, why creativity is so important to her, and what she'd want to say to other children or parents going through it.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 2:35

I've gained a lot because I have that balance of perspective now, and I think, well, I've gained a lot of wisdom from it. I've gained a lot of insights. I've gained a lot of different perspectives. I've gained a lot of empathy. You know, I've gained a lot of strength and resilience. There's a lot, there's a lot there I've gained

Chris: 2:48

So lean in and learn from this very valuable conversation. As we begin with Dannie-Lu introducing herself.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 2:55

So I'm Dannie-Lu Carr. I live on the south coast of the UK in St Leonards-on-Sea. I'm originally from the Northeast, and for an average week for me, there isn't one really, every week is completely different, because I do a combination of exec coaching and business training in things like leadership and communications and as well as that, I am a writer, a poet, singer, songwriter, actor and director. So quite busy.

Chris: 3:24

Wowsers. And do any of those particular creative bits you just listed? Do any of those win out? Get most of your time, or do you? Do you share your time equally across, writing songs, writing poetry, preparing stuff for the stage, etc, etc. It depends.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 3:40

Normally, one of them wins out at a given moment in time, because it's hard to do all of those things all at once. And at the moment, the things that are winning out are the the music, poetry, and I'm writing a load of short stories that I'm hoping to publish next year. So they're they're taking the creative juice at the moment, but sometimes a theater thing will come in and steal the creative attention for a while.

Chris: 4:00

Final question before we moved on to the deep stuff. With all of those, whether you're performing on stage musically or acting or performing in poetry, what gives you the biggest high is there any of those in particular that will give you the biggest thrill? You'll come off the performance and just feel like that was absolutely me to the core.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 4:19

I think performing generally, it depends what you're performing, but obviously when I'm performing my own music, it's, it's a combination I do like a punk, punk, folk, vaudevillian mix of stuff. So it's quite it's quite dynamic. But then the last theater role I played was Martha in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, so that was just pretty dynamic as well. So I guess it just depends what I'm working on. But there's something about the connection with people in any performance, which is the thing that ultimately gives you the high. I reckon sounds amazing.

Claire : 4:47

I heard someone say, what's like? You could be anything or be in anybody for a little while. What would it be? And I think I'd be in like a like a West End singer's body, just to feel what it's like, stand up there and just belt something out. But that's a great feeling.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 4:57

I have a friend who did a lot of that West End stuff. Oh, really. She's now the like, loves her introverted time so much. I think she spent so much time like being bombastic on stage at the now she's like, here I am in my little cottage, and I'm very happy. Thank you very much. Yeah,

Claire : 5:09

I can imagine it's for a season, right? So take us back a bit. What were you like as a child? Because what we're looking at with you starts at a very young age. So give us a little insight into what you were like when you were kind of growing up. I

Dannie-Lu Carr: 5:19

was not that different to how I am. Now, I always think it's funny that that you you look back at you like a young child and normal, and you kind of re become that. I think as you get into like your own midlife you're like, oh, here I am again. Hello. I lost you for several decades, but there you are, curious, outspoken, clumsy, loud, opinionated and really sensitive. That's That was me as a child, and that's me now as well. Yeah, I mean, the curiosity and the clumsiness were, they're a bit of a brutal combination. That

Claire : 5:50

sounds like a kid's book character

Chris: 5:53

being followed up by the sensitivity followed by the sensitive. Yeah, welcome

Dannie-Lu Carr: 5:56

to my world. There you go. That's all you need for me really understand all of me

Claire : 5:59

now. So, so tell us what happened when things started to change, because we're talking to you about early puberty. So precocious puberty, I

Dannie-Lu Carr: 6:07

believe it's called precocious puberty. It's called, yeah. There we go. Who knew?

Claire : 6:10

Yeah, I didn't until this so that's really interesting. I learned quite a bit already. Yeah, when did start things start to change? Did you notice? Did your parents notice? Who noticed something was changing?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 6:20

Yeah. I mean, I think everybody probably noticed it was strange, because I'm now I'm five foot and a bit. I always say five foot one, but the truth is, it's five foot and a bit. And people relate to my height a lot as an adult, and it's really weird, because as a kid, I was always the tallest, so I grew really quickly. I was tall, I was bigger, I looked older. I'm the youngest of three sisters, and often apart from my elder sister, but me and my middle sister, people would often just assume I was older than her, and still sometimes do. It's really interesting, but I wasn't so that was that was a little confusing sometimes, but I think things start to change around age seven is when I started to feel a little bit different. But then you talk to a lot of people, and a lot of people feel a little bit different. So this part of you that thinks, Well, maybe that's just growing up and being at school and having to live by other people's rules, and not all of them fitting. But then when I hit eight, I started to get a little bit curvy, and I was a lot taller, so it was around then I just started to feel awkward, like awkward in my body, and there was that awkwardness that I was perceiving that was coupled with and it's brutal to talk about this, but I'm going to be super honest about it, people's behaviors, particularly people's parents. Now, obviously it wasn't every parent, but people's parents would react to me differently. So I was inside. I was a child, but I would get quite brutal judgment and sexualization from adults around me, but I was eight years old, and it's it's icky as hell. It's horrible, but that's the truth. So so growing up in that and trying to cling onto your childhood with your like fingertips, that you don't always realize that that's actually what you're doing. Of course, it's only with the hindsight benefits that you recognize that was what was going on. It's not a very nice place to be. It's quite an isolating place to be. And you lose complete agency over who you are, because it's your body and it's yourself, and you just feel like that's everyone else has got a comment on it. And so that's, that's a it's very tough. It took me a long time, I reckon, up until about my mid 30s, I wouldn't have been able to even say that sense to you without like bursting into sobbing tears. You know, the fact that I could talk about it now is amazing, but I couldn't for a long time because it was so icky.

Claire : 8:36

And eight is so early. It's such a long way before 13, let's say when a lot of other people might be starting to experience things, that's a big gap, and your peers are going to be Yeah, like you said, they're just children, aren't they? So it's not something anyone else is facing. I presume you didn't know anyone else that was going through anything like that, and that's why it's lonely.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 8:52

No, I didn't. The only reference that I had was my elder sister had gone through puberty about nine and a half. I think they still don't really know what causes it there, like, is it genetic? Some people think it's to do with what hormones were being put into products at that time. There's some theories around if your environment forces you to grow up early, then you grow up early. And mine was probably a combination of all of that, and maybe other things that we don't even know about yet. No, I was the only person at that point. A couple of years later, there were a few other girls who started to develop around 10, because obviously people develop at different ages. But the biggest thing that was difficult was getting changed for PE. Because when kids get changed for PE at school, everyone just puts their pants and vest on and goes and climbs around on things. I felt like I couldn't climb on things. So I was apart from fact, I was clumsy. Anyway, I felt very physically awkward, because suddenly, you know, I've got lumps and bumps where other kids don't have them. I'm heavier and so trying to do things like rope swings changing in front of eight year old boys. When you've got curves and you've started your period, it's really awkward.

Claire : 9:54

Yeah, I'm guessing that's something schools aren't very equipped to deal with.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 9:57

Either they're not, they're not, and especially. You know, it was 1980 83 and this was going on for me. So when you take it back and you think, where were we then? I mean, we've come a long way in society with our awareness of what can happen around things now. But yeah, back then, it was like, oh, oh, I think you might have to go and get changed in the toilet. That's really isolating as well. So then you go into the like, smelly kids toilets to change, you know, and you're the only one having to do it. And it's, yeah, the little tiny sinks that, you know, you you dwarf the sinks because you're too tall for them. Now, it's kind of weird. It's a little bit like an Alice in Wonderland moment where, you know, she gets too big for the house. Felt a bit like that at times.

Chris: 10:36

It sounds like you were quite quick to recognize it is, you know, this isn't a good thing. This is, this isn't a good experience. This isn't a good feeling. But were there others, adult or, you know, friends, that also recognize the need to support you in that? Or, you know, was it totally isolating, and did you feel like you were the only one that was thinking, I don't like this.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 10:56

It's great question. From memory, there were some people who seemed aware and empathic. But of course, it's different. When you're a kid, your lens is different, isn't it? So you remember different things, and I think you can remember the tough things can they can overshadow some of the support that was there. I definitely, there were definitely some kids that I remember being kinder to me than others, so obviously that we'd gravitate towards them, but also think, why are you being so unkind? You know? And there would be the typical thing about mocking and and all of that. I found that adults around me, my parents, weren't bad around it. They just, it was just, it's difficult one, isn't it? 1983 like, what do you do with that? So they they minimize the fuss around it, which I guess was their way of trying to minimize the damage. But I wonder, had I been born in a different time, if that knowledge and it might have had a different impact? There was a lot of shame with it, for sure, and yeah, the messaging that I was getting from outside was definitely that it was more bad than good.

Claire : 11:52

Yeah, I'm guessing it's tricky as a parent as well, because even if you talk to a child about it, it's going to be sort of, well, this is happening to you. It's a bit different. It will happen to everyone else, but it's not happening yet. So it's just, you know, no matter what you say at the age of eight or nine, you just don't want it to happen. You don't want to be different. So there's nothing you're going to say, really, that's going to help the situation. I wonder if maybe now there's like support groups that kids could go to with others that are going through the same thing. Whether that would be something that's, that's helpful, I don't know, sort of being around people.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 12:19

I think it would be amazing. I'm I don't know if that stuff. I haven't actually looked I don't know if that exists. It definitely should, because there are there. It does happen more commonly to girls, I believe, but definitely there are boys who experience it as well. It's a thing. It's not a common thing, but it is a thing. I've since had adults who I know in my world come to me and say, Oh, this is happening to my niece, or, Oh, this has happened to my friend's child. Can you help with this? And I've obviously, all I can do is tell them what I know and say, you know, try and talk to them and make them feel safe, because it's, it's tough out there, and people can be, yeah, people can be quite shocking around it, yeah. I guess

Claire : 12:55

it's important that you've got a safe environment at home, that you come back to where you feel loved for who you are. It's probably quite a big thing when you come out of school. Out of school and it's it's tricky there. Do you think you realized at the time that there were any losses attached to it, or is it just looking back that you've sort of seen what you've lost through it?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 13:11

I was definitely aware at the time as well, although the lens on that has changed significantly, because obviously you you reflect, and you have wisdom, and you have lenses as an adult that you don't have access to as a child, but I think the biggest losses were things like, I always remember that I always refer to, like the yellow climbing frame. You know, there's climbing frames that used to fold against the wall, and then they'd unfold, and that I remember just feeling like I can't, I can't climb on that. Now, whether I could or not, I'm sure I probably could have done but I felt like I couldn't. So I self limited, probably a lot as well, because I was afraid so those losses of playing freely, like you can't just run around the yard when you've got a significant, you know, pair of boobs, frankly, not to put your finer point on it, you just can't. It's uncomfortable, it's embarrassing, and everyone will point it out. So my physical movement got taken away from me. To an extent, my freedom of physical movement got taken away from me, and that's what I was aware of. But I was also aware of suddenly I'm thinking differently. People around me are talking about certain things and playing certain games, and I was not feeling like I could relate to that, because my body's already got hormone surgeon. I just felt like, oh, I don't know where I fit really. So I was aware of quite a few losses at the time, and can put a bit more of a rational lens on them. Now go, Oh, that makes sense of this, this, this and this.

Chris: 14:27

Rational sense, but you know, a few minutes ago, you said it's it's only in the last number of years that you've been able to talk about this without sobbing, yeah, so clearly, those experiences that many would have just disregarded as being it's just childhood, you'll grow as if it's fine. It's just a temporary thing, but clearly, clearly, it went deep enough to cause you a fair amount of sadness or trauma or something that's taken you a good number of years to be able to process,

Dannie-Lu Carr: 14:50

oh yeah, it did. And, you know, not to go into these into too much depth, but the things that subsequently, I then went through around like eating disorders, body. Dysmorphia, you know, the whole body image stuff. I mean, I'd be lying if I said that's not in my world anymore. That would just be a big fat lie. It's, it's less in my world than it's ever been, because I've done a hell of a lot of work on it, you know, I've had loads of therapy, and I've done all the delving, and I've had all the, you know, feminist books that I've eaten and, you know, and it's given me, like, a lot of perspective on this. But yeah, I think I was 33 when I finally thought to myself, I think I need to talk to somebody about this. Up until then, this shame was so big that I still felt like it had to be secret, you know. And that was when, funnily enough, Claire you said, you know, I hadn't heard the phrase precocious puberty. I didn't hear it until that age either. And I also didn't know about a phase called latency. Because the first thing I was remember that first meeting I had with my therapist at the time, she said, Oh, well, this makes sense, because you didn't actually have latency. And I was like, What is latency? And it's the period of childhood between about the ages of eight and 13. It's a phase that most kids go through. That's a developmental phase, and I didn't get that. So she said, Oh, we're going to have to go back and try and give you it in reverse. So I guess there's the loss right? There's latency, because I just didn't have it.

Claire : 16:09

That'll confuse people. We'll just put loss of latency. Everyone will be like, what's that loss of latency?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 16:14

And they'll go down the rabbit hole, yeah,

Claire : 16:17

we want to know what that is.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 16:18

All these phrases, but it's interesting, isn't it? Because I'm saying them to you, and I'm saying them to you, and I'm even using them and saying I didn't really still don't know that much about them, and it happened to me. So how can we expect other people to know about them? You know, unless we start to talk about them, it's partly why I thought this might be quite an interesting thing to talk about. Yeah, definitely.

Claire : 16:32

And with all the information you have now, do you look back and think there's stuff I could have done if it had been available, let's say because it might not have been in the 80s, or there's stuff I could have done to help me process it along the way, rather than getting to 30s and then having to process it all is, do you think about that at all?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 16:48

I haven't, but the answer I would give thinking about it now is, I think the thing we've just said, which is, people need to talk about it, you know, people need to know it's a thing, so that they can talk about it. Because if they don't know it's a thing. So, like, a lot of things that we talk about now it's like, oh, that's a thing. Oh, right now I know that that's got a label. I can navigate through it, and I'm not a massive fan of labels when we restrict ourselves with them, but I think they're helpful in order to be able to orientate ourselves through to something that's healthier for us. So yeah, the labels and the knowledge of what these things are and that they happen and they're nobody's fault is also really important. So I think if there'd been anywhere that I could have gone to recognize that in those years, that would have been a game changer, you know, and I still think they're needed actually out in the world. I still think that we could do a lot more for kids going through that,

Chris: 17:35

yeah, what's been, what's been your experience of, I guess, forming your view of men, I think going back to what you said was a really horrible time of ickiness and the adult judgment and growing up into who you are now, how hard or easy has it been finding the right view of your normal, your average man, as opposed to all the stories, the nasty stories We hear of evil but yeah, what's been your experience of men

Dannie-Lu Carr: 18:04

complex? I would say complex, because obviously they're formative years. So I was quite fearful. I'm very lucky. I've got quite a solid dad, so I did have a solid dad there, so that was I'm very grateful for that. But yeah, my men equals unsafe was my sort of shorthand for long time. Men are unsafe, and there was a lot of evidence for me that they were now, obviously we filter, and I'm now very aware of confirmation bias and all of that, and I'm aware that I was probably filtering out a lot of very safe men, and there are a lot of safe men in the world as well, of course. But yeah, it didn't. It did impact in a big way. And I felt like I had to hide around men a lot like, oh, I need to hide. I need big clothes on, because then it's safer. Yeah, that did impact. I think a lot my relationships with men for years actually

Claire : 18:53

Do you think a lot of the things you were talking about with the body dysmorphia, the eating disorders, would you relate that as direct relation to going through puberty early.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 19:01

I think it's quite significant, because, of course, things that kids would say with kids having a limited vocabulary at that time and a limited view in the world, was like, You're fat. You're fat because I had curves, right? So it was like, Oh, you're fat, Fatty, overweight. So I internalized, oh, my God, I'm fat, I'm overweight, I'm disgusting, I'm this. You know, all the things that quote, unquote fat relates to me. We're way better around all of that now. But yeah, I grew up with that belief of, like, I'm fat, I need to be smaller. Now, with my feminist lens on now, I look back at that and I go, Oh, that's so interesting, isn't it? I was quite a sassy kid who was quite tall physically at the time, quite taken up a little bit more space physically. And the messaging was, you need to be smaller, otherwise you're unsafe. And I find that, like, I could do PhD on that so interesting. But yeah, that was the message. And around that time, the 80s, the 90s, I was in my 20s in the 90s, and we all know there was a lot of skinny super model that was the goal for a lot of women then. So yeah, it was a lot of that stuff played through and through and through and through. So. Yeah, and like many women, I'm sure, and men, too, I look back at pictures and go, there's nothing wrong with you. You were fine. You weren't fat at all. But I thought I was, I thought I was just so unattractive and repulsive to the world that that, yeah, that played in a lot. So yeah, a lot of work that's been done since then, but that's the impact of it, because that's what you get. Told you you're too big, you're embarrassing. That's embarrassing. We don't want to talk about it. That doesn't fit. So, you know, let's just push you over there and pretend it's not happening, or mock it.

Chris: 20:30

How on earth did you find your way onto the stage?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 20:35

I think it was the need for acceptance. That's what most people say. Isn't it is an interesting one, the need to be heard, I think. But to put it really simply, I think, I think it was the need to be heard, although, when I found theater at 14, you know, I went off to a college because we couldn't study theater at school. So I went off to college to do like evening classes in theater. And the minute I stumbled upon European grotesque theater, I just felt like I'd found my people. So I laugh at that, but I do also I just, I love the honesty of theater. I love the truthfulness of theater. So, so there was a lot of that as well. Like, and I love to read. I love culture, so I joke about the need to be heard. I think there was an element of that in there. But I also just found, found the truth of it delightful when I think there'd been so much shame and like, oh, let's not talk about that. That's a bit embarrassing. Like, I found it just a relief that, like, let's No, let's just talk about everything. Let's get it out there. I found that such a relief. Is

Chris: 21:28

it significant that your response is the need to be heard, because being on stage is very visible as well. So, I mean, some people might answer that by saying they need to be seen, but you say heard. So were the two connected? I mean, did you have to accept that? I want to be heard, but to in order to achieve that, I'm gonna have to be seen as well. So that's just part of it.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 21:46

Yeah, I think, yeah. I think that. I think that is what happens, and if I'm being totally honest, which I've just talked about, honesty, so I'm gonna gonna have to be the being totally seen. I'm still not fully comfortable with. So even when I play my music, I'd rather be heard than seen. When I write, I love to write because I can be heard or read, but I don't necessarily have to be seen. So I'm, you know, I said, like you come back and meet yourself when you were older. I think as a child, you're like that. You could you become more authentic again. I think there's an honesty with me, which is, yeah, I like to be in the room with people in form, but it is the being heard for me, more than, more than being seen. I still, I'm still a little bit awkward being seen. Would you

Claire : 22:25

look back and think I've got losses as an adult because of what I lost in childhood? Did that echo through into new losses? It

Dannie-Lu Carr: 22:33

did in some ways. And now I'd say I've gained a lot as well, because I have that balance of perspective now. And I think, well, I've gained a lot of wisdom from it overnight. I've gained a lot of insights. I've gained a lot of different perspectives. I've gained a lot of empathy. You know, I've gained a lot of strength and resilience. There's a lot, there's a lot that I've gained, yeah, the lot of I keep coming back to this, like, the lot of agency over body. And, you know, I had, I'm also childless, not by choice, so there was a lot of agency over my body there. So there's lots of agency over body has been a little bit of a theme, and it's shape shifted a little bit. But that has definitely, you know, I wonder how much of that came in because my circumstantial childlessness was some of it was a result for not standing up for myself enough. I was, you know, coerced into an abortion I didn't want to have. And I look back at that and I think, why didn't I? Why didn't I fight back harder and, and it's possibly because I still didn't quite have the agency on my body that I have now, you know, I think there was, it took me a long time to be able to to take hold of that. And there's an interesting piece I don't know if you know, Dr Jessica Taylor's work. She does a lot of stuff around, around women in particular, and and victim blaming and all of that. And she has a stance on that, that when you you are the victim of something that happens to you, and you lose your agency, the only agency you can get back is to self blame. Because if you can self blame, that thread you can grab. And I find that really interesting in terms of, oh yeah. Like, how much of that did I do unaware, but how much of that did I do in order to try and grapple my way through so that that last loss of agency on body, I'm really, like, hyper vigilant around it with other people now as well. When I see people losing their agency over their body for all sorts of reasons, it pricks a lot of stuff in me. I'm like, oh, not just for me, but that. I see society doing that to people a lot. They try to take people's agency away from them. And you know, that makes me rage, really.

Claire : 24:26

So what's the grieving been like for you then? Because there's some very different losses there. Have you grieved them individually? Did you need to and what's that look like? Because whether it's the puberty, the coerced abortion or the eating disorders, they're all very different grieving processes. What's that look

Dannie-Lu Carr: 24:42

like? Oh, have I grieved them? Yes. Do I still grieve them? Yes, less intensely, although there are always moments we know with grief, right? This, it's not a straight line, it's some sort of loop de loop fairground ride I used to distract so. Used to I used to drink, I used to party. I used to go out all the time. Used to be like, Yeah, I'm an extrovert me. I'm an extrovert man. And then I realized at certain point my life that was actually quite a huge distraction, and actually what I needed was solitude and space and time to think and time to write and time to sometimes just stare at a wall and not feel bad about staring at a wall, like it's okay, the guilt of staring at a wall. I feel like there's a thing around grief that doesn't get talked about. So it looks like that. It looks like it looks like taking time for what I need, and saying no to outside things and and saying no to the judgment that you get as well, you know, sometimes unintentionally, people, oh, you're not available very much. Well, haven't seen you for ages, you know. And you're like, Well, I am. I am busy having my life and doing my work and being with some people that I need to be with, but I'm also grieving, and that doesn't get talked about enough in society or knowledge enough in society. I think that we're we're all of us are doing our bits of grief, and some people are doing big bits of grief, and you know that that should be left alone and not questioned or challenged in that way. So that's what that's looked like for me. It's looked like a lot of therapy. It's looked like a it's looked like a lot of somatic work. It's looked like lifting weights. I'm a, I'm a big barbell fan. You know, I did a lot of CrossFit for a while. I don't do CrossFit anymore, but I do a lot of weightlifting still, and and gym work, and that's part of me grieving and Reclaiming my body and the writing. The writing is a way for me to process, I think, and that's that's a processing of grief, along with a lot of other things and and being able to talk about it now is powerful, because I don't, you know, I feel like I might get the odd bit of tears or whatever, but I'm not going to be all consumed by it anymore. So being able to discuss it with people and be honest about it, and being able to share, I suppose, is a way of processing it and also hoping that it can help some other people to process it.

Chris: 26:43

So where are you with that in mind? Now, on the sort of scale of contentment with your own body, how content or discontent Are you? Or does that waver as well? It

Dannie-Lu Carr: 26:53

does waver. But I would say I'm like, I'm a good solid 80% now, which feels like it's probably as good as it's gonna get. You know, I think I would be unrealistic to think I'm 100% with myself. Now, I don't know if that's possible. Maybe it is, but I don't think it is with all of the stuff that I went through. I think, you know, to be okay with 80% is part, is an important part, of being content to be like, it's okay to not be fully okay with it, but to be like, I'm all right. And actually, we all come in different shapes and sizes, and we all have our different stories. Yeah, so I think that that's where I'm at. But yeah, it does wave. I have my I still have my bad days, but the bad days are not what they used to be. You know, I definitely used to cancel nights out if I couldn't face my own reflection. That was right up until, like, my probably about 40 years old, maybe even beyond, I would cancel nights out because I look so disgusting I can't go out. So yeah, and I don't want to sort of sit and play the victim fiddle here, because I, because I kind of feel like it is what it is, right? It was what it was, but it's it was, it was very much my daily reality was, can I bear the sight of myself? Is it okay? Is it safe? And yeah, I do attribute that down to a lot of what happened in those years. I'd say between eight and 12, it was, it was the worst, because then once you hit 12 other people, catch up a bit.

Claire : 28:08

Does it affect your I mean, is it in your day to day still? Is this affecting? I think we talk about a lot about grief and bereavements, and people accept that if you, you know, if you lost somebody and you're going through a big grief, or a sudden grief, it's always just going to be there, like every day. You might think about them. It's there in the back. There in the background. But I don't think people associate grief much with these kinds of losses, which is why we want to explore them on the podcast. Because we want to say, Look, someone might not have, let's say, lost a child or something, but they might be going through something like precocious puberty, which has affected their whole life and still might affect them day to day, which people just don't think even crosses their mind, because they think, oh, that's back in childhood. So that's that. So, you know, does it affect or, you know, the other losses you've mentioned, do they affect you day to day? Is that still something sort of to deal with?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 28:50

I think so. I mean, probably in more subtle ways, you know, because they've those combinations of things, along with many other factors, of course, like shape who you are, they're part of your fabric. I don't want to like self abandon or self reject again, right? So I kind of it. Part of me, accepting that they're part of my tapestry, is a way of not self rejecting, which I've had to really work hard not to do. They've definitely shaped me. I mean, I have a hyper vigilance, which I think I can own around this stuff. And I, you know, I will, I'll call it if people say it, and then people go, Oh, just leave it, you know. And I'm like, No, that's not okay. Like, you can't say that to someone that's not all right. So I'm a bit of a Buddha care on that front, I think I will come in and speak up. I mean, I'm not inappropriate, you know, but I will. I won't do it in the middle of a quiet room, but, but I will, if I feel enough about it, I will, I will speak up. So I think in that way, it's affected what I talk about. I lived with depression for a long time. I mean, I still have moments of it. I think that of that you can attribute to that episode in my life. I think that created that dark space, you know, so the fact that I live with depression, and I now rephrase that, rather than suffer from, you know, it's like, well, no, I live with it. It's my little bedfellow. Like, come on. Here you here you are again. Like, I've got to embrace it, because it's always going to be there. Yeah, that definitely comes with it. I have said to other people before, it's also where a lot of my creativity comes from. So in some ways, it's really welcome. You know, it's not all bad.

Claire : 30:08

Something we ask all, I guess, because we're just curious about it is, is the why question, and whether people have asked that at all, or whether it's been something they've got stuck in, or they've moved past. This is an interesting one with you, because obviously, when you were going through it, you were eight, nine onwards. I don't know if children asked those kinds of questions at that point, if at all. Is that something that you've asked, either back then, or if you've asked now, looking back at it, why have I had to go through this? Why me? Is that something you've ever asked?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 30:34

I definitely did when I was younger? I think that that whole thing of it's unfair, you know, like that sort of toddler response that we all can have, of like, the foot stamp and the like, it's not fair. Why me? I definitely have had years of that earlier on, and I definitely had an element of that as a child, like, what have I done to deserve this? I'm not bad. You know, this isn't fair. That was the thing. So I guess that was where the why was wrapped in that. As I got older, it became more of a Yeah. Why does that happen? Let's delve into the science. Let's delve into the theories, like, why does that happen, and why do we not talk about it? And why are grown women who say bitchy things and grown men who say sexual things? And I'm generalizing, but just as a shorthand, Why does no one challenge that when they're doing that to an eight year old child who's happens to have had the bad luck of going through puberty early, you know? So, so I do have Whys around that, but there is a level of acceptance that I think is important with grief, that is, you know, the acceptance helps you heal. And it's not like you have to accept it and be all spiritually at peace with it, but you have to accept that it's a bit crap, and it is what it is, and it's a bit crap, and everyone's got a bit of crap that they end with, and it's like, that's just your bit of crap that you that you carry, and try not to let it take center stage, if you pardon the pun, since we talked about theater.

Chris: 31:44

So to move on to thinking about healing, as you mentioned, there healing and hope for the future, hoping in things to get better. And there's been different elements that you've referred to, therapy and reading things have been really helpful in your own sort of creative outlets, what have been some of the the most helpful, what's had the greatest impact on your your healing over the years?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 32:08

I'm gonna say feminism actually really helped me, you know, it's really, really helped me. Go, I'm not my body. What my body looks like isn't who I am. You know, it's sort of a lot of, like, people like Naomi Wolf, squirking, or, like the beauty myth, things like that. Like, massively helpful, but also lifting, lifting, getting strong, making okay for myself to be strong, going, Yeah, I am strong. I'm gonna be strong. Let me give me that Bob, hell, you know, that's helped. And then, and then writing, you know, to be heard. So I think that, I think those three are the biggest ones. But of course, therapy has been very much a foundation that's that's woven its way underneath those to to play its part as well. It's hard to choose just one, actually,

Claire : 32:48

Well it's interesting, because it's the full package, isn't it? You're dealing with it, mentally, physically, creatively, there are three different areas that kind of come together to sort of heal different parts of you probably

Dannie-Lu Carr: 32:57

yeah, I think that is what we need. I think that's something that gets missed a lot, and I'm not against any type of healing, but I think it's important to recognize that if you can get all of them, it's going to be better, because we are multi dimensional beings. We're not just brain, we're not just body, where everything works together. So if we can weave it together, we're going to stand off a chance.

Chris: 33:16

I think the feminism side of things as well. There's something in me that I think the more I hear about feminism, the more it makes me think it's sort of anti men, anti masculinity, in a sense, which is it's not right. But with the bias that you mentioned, the sort of confirmation bias, how have you balanced really becoming passionate about that view of, you know, I am not my body. I am more than this, coupled with actually being more pro women, doesn't mean I have to be more anti men. Oh god no, because there are so many wrong men. What's that been like?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 33:50

It's been a journey, to be candid about it. I mean, it has been a journey. I do think feminism is misrepresented a lot and oversimplified, and I think that's where it becomes troublesome, and men can feel attacked in it. And I always say, we all struggle from it. We've all, we've all got our crosses to bear around it. You know, there's, there's all sorts of things that we are expected gender wise. And I know it's changing, but as a result of that. So I do think when you follow a path of feminism, God, I'm talking about it like it's a religion, but people have you kind of follow a thought, follow a thought thread through certain types of feminism. It's, actually, it's an, it's an all inclusive thing, and, you know, it's, it's helpful to be mindful of the impact it has on on men as well. And one person's disenfranchisement doesn't have to be, well, I'm going to disenfranchise then, you know, because I feel disenfranchised. Like, that's not the answer. It's like, how do we have the conversation? But yeah, that's been a journey for me, and I've had to learn to I've had to learn to listen. Over the years more and more, you know, in order and be humble and and be wrong sometimes. And that's, that's, that's been my journey. I think the more open you can be with people around it, the more that everyone. Can learn from what it has to offer. But yeah, I have problems with certain elements of it. And I have a problem where people say, Oh, men do this. And I'm like, Well, you know, can't say that. That's like saying, well, all women do this, or all adults do this, or all people with a certain skin color do this. You can't say that. But there is, there is some clumsiness around it still that we need to figure out. It's a very, it's a very volatile topic, isn't it? It's such a sensitive one, and people can really react with it.

Claire : 35:26

How has the the childlessness fitted in with all this? Because, you know, that's something that obviously we've been through. So we've got quite a few listeners that are childless as well, and that can be a for you. It's almost like an an added thing you've had to deal with on top of all the other stuff you would you were facing. So how was that fitted into the puzzle for you?

Chris: 35:44

Interesting that you say something we've been through, like it's happened,

Claire : 35:47

okay, we're going through,

Chris: 35:48

gonna be a lifelong going through

Claire : 35:49

yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 35:51

Phases of, isn't it? It's interesting, because the echoes that I feel as a childless person, of the unintentional exclusion that we can feel as childless people, echoes being excluded when I was going through precocious puberty, I would say, you know, because I've reflected on it a bit, and fuels that fire very quickly, because I'm quite outspoken about childlessness now that I'm at a certain point in my own journey again, at one point I, you know, I couldn't even answer the question, Do You have kids? I was just like, oh, you know, but now I can. I sort of talk about that quite openly, and it's the inclusion piece. It's like, we can so easily make other people feel excluded without meaning to and we're not always going to get it right. I think it's impossible to always get it right, but I think we can be way more aware that our own situation is just our situation, and it doesn't mean that everyone has the same situation that we have as a society. I think that's so important that our people's life can look so different. You put three people in a room, and everyone's life experience is different, and we need to be awake to that, rather than just making assumptions around things. So the the excludedness definitely ties in with that. And, yeah, the disenfranchisement, I suppose, of feelings, oh, let's not talk about that. That's that's uncomfortable for other people, so we'll not talk about it. So you're then isolated with your own grief and a whole myriad of other feelings going on, rather than having a space to be able to discuss and feel supported

Claire : 37:18

And you're passionate about that question, Do you have kids? Because you're embarking on a new podcast mission soon. Just tell us why, why you're doing that, and what that's about.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 37:27

So that's about creating the cohesion of conversations, whether you are child free, childless or your parent. Because the more I've spoken to people and more I've learned to listen, I suppose the more I've realized we were actually all dealing with the same stuff. It's just packaged differently. We all have joy, we all have grief, we all have isolation. We all feel knackered. There's there's so much. And it came from a conversation with a friend of mine who used to live in East London, nearby, and she has a child. She's a parent, and we used to sometimes get together, and I used to coach her, actually, and then we became friends after that coaching relationship. Finished, and she says, Oh God, you know, I've got to do this. And she would moan about being a parent, and I used to get a little bit grumpy. She used to say, but you don't have kids. And she sort of clocked it. And I said, Yeah. And I'm really, like, peed off at you for talking about this, because, Oh, I'd love to have those problems. So it started with light conversation with us, and then over the years, we've just gone, we've really got to do something with this. We've really got to do something with this. And now we are doing something with it about 14 years later. So yeah, trying to, trying to get people to just listen, you know? Because even those of us who are childless can go through phases of of going, Oh, parents, you know? And it's like, actually, well, I know parents who've lost children. I know parents who are dealing with kids with special needs, their parenting alone, their same sex parenting, this, this, we don't know how they became parents. Did they have fertility journey? I mean, that's just a tiny list. There's, there's so many things going on, and we we oversimplify. So it's about learning the complexity so that we can be better people. Ultimately, that's what the podcast is about.

Chris: 38:59

Again, to go back to the seven, eight year old self and the experience between eight and 12, if you could turn back the clock and change that for you, which would, of course, change who you are. Now, would you? Would you push that magic button to change that experience?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 39:15

Oh, what a question. I mean, everyone's gonna say no, right? Because it's who you are. But I would change. I would change one thing about it. If I'm allowed to do that, I'd go in and tinker with it, rather than fully change it. And that would be, I would find my voice. There we go. Here's the link. Now. I'd find my voice to say I need some help and I need some support. And for an eight or nine year old to be able to say that is difficult because they don't know. A lot of them don't know how to ask for that. So that's what I changed. So I think that, you know, going forward, it's important to let kids know that they can ask for help and they can ask for support when they need it, that that's not a bad thing, that's not a failure, that so I think that's the one thing I would change if I could, but it's given me. A lot of good stuff. So, you know, it's equally cursed and blessed, isn't it?

Chris: 40:05

Yeah, yeah. And so from this point forwards, what is your view of the rest of the life that you have, the hope that you have, the creativity that you've got? What's your view of the future

Dannie-Lu Carr: 40:16

To create more. Definitely, I'm writing a lot more, which is what I always wanted to do. So that's great. And to learn to listen to what I need to learn to listen to myself more is, I think if we navigate forward listening to ourselves, then everything can be as it's supposed to be. So that's, that's the plan, is to listen to myself more and give myself more of what I know I need going forward.

Claire : 40:38

If we've got a parent listening to this, who's dealing with this in a child, it's just happened. Is there anything specific you want to say to parents that could help that child or give that child something they need, but they don't maybe know they need right now?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 40:50

Yeah, definitely. I would say, definitely, talk about it, but I get the steer from them. I mean, you said, what do they need? Claire, and I would say, that's the question to ask them regularly. What is it you need at the moment? What is it you need at the moment? Because it could be as simple as, I need a hug. I need to talk about it. I need to do school. I need, you know, whatever it is, what is it that you need? And then, of course, you can delve from that point. But if you ask them what they need the most? Most kids will tell you, I think, but I don't think we ask kids that question enough so we deny their agency too young, or as if we ask them, we give them their agency and we learn, we teach them to learn how to listen to themselves. Yeah,

Claire : 41:27

I think what's so important about this conversation is that it really shows you the impact on a whole life of going through something like this, and why it is so important to explore it with the child and help in any way you can. Because if you could get them through to the age of 20 with them not actually having to ever deal ever deal with it again, because they dealt with it along the way. How amazing. What a gift is that?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 41:47

Oh, my God, that'd be amazing, absolutely. And I think, I think schools can do more actually, too. I think there's conversations that need to happen in schools around this. Maybe there are in some schools, but I don't, from my knowledge, I think they could. There could be more of it.

Chris: 42:00

I think when you know the final question, there's another question that's that's come onto my mind a few times when you've mentioned your enjoyment in strength and lifting weights, because to go back to where we started with, this was sort of a dislike of you becoming curvy, and now here you are developing intentional sort of muscle curves. Is there a link between the two?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 42:24

Yeah. I mean, you can't see me. I'm not. I've never been, I've never been petite and dinky, you know, I've always kind of been a little bit robust, built, so for me, yeah, there's definitely connection. It's a case of, well, I'm little and powerful. Now I'm little. I was too old, but everyone overtook me at one point. I'm little and powerful, so like play two strengths. And I do think there is an element of me that is it's about to being able to look after myself. If I, you know, be that bit of unsafe that comes through from childhood. I think there's still an element of me going I need to know I can look after myself. I need to know I'm strong enough to look after myself. And there's part of that as well, which is also a defiant Up yours to your skinniness, because I'm going to be strong and curvy. So there's an element of that too. That's an element of defiance in there too. So it's a bit of a combination. But also, it does just feel good to be in your body. You know, I was, I wasn't in my body for a long time. I was tied in from my body, which is very complex when you have to walk around in it, but I think there's being able to feel in your body is a way of getting your power back.

Claire : 43:26

It's also a good time to mention for the shorter people who are more robust, because I'm five foot one a bit as well, and I've had the expression child bearing hips many times. Yeah, I've had that too. Yeah. That's a strong warning to anybody who feels like they need to say that to a woman who never has children. I don't think you ever lose that expression being said to you at some point, because at the time, it feels like, if you're younger, it's like a good thing. It's like, Oh, great. I'd have kids one day and that'll be easy or something. But yeah, that if when I hear that, it's just yeah, really bugs me. So people out there don't use it.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 43:54

It's also just, again, giving, giving a female the rule of mother. Not that there's anything wrong with the rule of mother, but we can be many other things alongside or instead of the role of mother, right? It's that's my thing as well. It's like conflating being female with being a mother still bugs me, too. I hate that too. Great.

Chris: 44:11

Well, what a delight to talk and share your some of your experience. So thank you so much for your being candid, being honest, being open, having this chat with us. Really appreciate it.

Dannie-Lu Carr: 44:22

Thanks for having me.

Chris: 44:23

The final question, as we end all our episodes with our guests, is to ask you so Dannie-Lu, what is your Herman?

Dannie-Lu Carr: 44:28

My Herman is creative practice. Find your creative practice because it's just the thing that will bring you, oh, God, I sound like a self help book, but it is the thing that will bring you back to yourself. Um, it gives you a way to express what's going on and and get curious and to create something from, potentially things that can feel a bit nasty or a bit unpleasant. If you could get into a creative practice, there's always something that comes from that. That's like a new thing that comes from that. And I feel like that's such an amazing thing to get involved in, and it just has given me so much peace over the years in my head and. In myself that I really would recommend everyone has a creative practice. You don't even have to be good at it. You know, a lot of people don't do creative practice because they go, I'm not really good at it. And I'm like, Man, I'd be terrible at it. It's not about that. It's just getting it's getting amongst it. So that's my Herman, find a creative practice and get amongst it. Or have many, you don't just have to have one.

Claire : 45:24

Creative practice. I've lost count of the number of times people have mentioned the importance of creativity when dealing with grief. Creativity is so important. It has the power to change our thinking, whether that's habits of thinking, allowing non linear thinking, or improving critical thinking. It can also unblock old patterns, enable empathy, connect us to ourselves, improve mental health and emotional development and so much more. Why wouldn't we want to invest in such a thing? Have a think. What do you like to do or want to try that's creative?

Chris: 45:54

Watercolors?!

Claire : 45:56

When have you ever...

Chris: 45:56

Pipe down. You can follow Dannie-Lu on Instagram@dannielucarr and for more on her music and her new podcast, follow the links in the show notes, as for Claire and me. Have you read our story on our website? www.thesilentwhy.com you'll get to know more about us there, and we'd love a follow on social media @thesilentwhypod

Claire : 46:14

This podcast is able to run because of the kind support of people like you who value our guests and the content and want to give something back, and we've created a few ways you can do this, some financial, some just cost a little bit of your time, and they're all on the website at www.thesilentwhy.com/support running a podcast costs money, and as I'm currently doing this as my main job, but voluntary, all donations are very welcome to support the running costs. And you can do this by buying me a one off fancy tea, or by supporting the podcast monthly at www.buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy links are in the show notes.

Chris: 46:45

And there's Herman, who do you know that's lonely, grieving or just having a hard time at the moment? Send Herman Claire's beautifully handmade better than flowers. Grief companion, go visit our website to meet him now, then we're finishing this episode with a quote from an author who goes under the name, C Joybell C.

Claire : 47:06

"You can be the most beautiful person in the world, and everybody sees light and rainbows when they look at you, but if you yourself don't know it, all of that doesn't even matter. Every second that you spend on doubting your worth, every moment that you use to criticize yourself is a second of your life wasted is a moment of your life thrown away. It's not like you have forever, so don't waste any of your seconds. Don't throw even one of your moments away."