Loss 57/101: Loss of a husband to suicide while pregnant: Rachel Hart

#114. How does the grief of losing someone to suicide differ from other deaths? What emotions and questions does it raise? And what if it's your spouse who's died, and you're five months pregnant with his child? 

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #57 of 101: Loss of a husband to suicide while pregnant

Meet Rachel Hart, from Liverpool, who recalls the time she was five months pregnant and the police knocked on her door to tell her that her husband had been found dead. She was later told he had died by suicide. 

Rachel is no stranger to grieving, having lost both her parents before her mid-30’s, but this kind of grief took her to a whole new level.

In this episode, Rachel shares about the blessing that the Covid lockdowns turned out to be (with a new baby), how she managed new emotions like anger that were tied in with her grief, and what people can say (and avoid saying!) when faced with a story like hers. Plus, she shares how and when hope returned to help her look to the future.

And we send many congratulations to Rachel (and her newly wed husband), because they got married within days of us recording this episode.

Charities and organisations Rachel wants to share links to: https://www.instagram.com/calmzone/
https://www.widowedandyoung.org.uk/
https://uksobs.com/

Nora McInerny books Rachel mentioned: https://noraborealis.com/

For help on language around suicide: https://shiningalightonsuicide.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Language-guide-for-talking-about-suicide.pdf 

Transcript

Rachel Hart: 0:02

Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm talking about the loss of my husband to suicide when I was five months pregnant. I'm also after losing both of my parents quite young as well.

Claire : 0:12

Welcome to The Silent Why we're a husband and wife on a podcast mission to see where hope can exist in 101 different types of loss and to hear from those who've experienced them. I'm Claire Sandys

Chris: 0:22

and I'm Chris, and this is loss 57 of 101 in this episode, we're speaking to Rachel Hart from Liverpool, who recalled the time she was five months pregnant and the police knocked on her door to tell her that her husband had been found dead.

Rachel Hart: 0:36

I've never felt anything like it. I remember just sort of pacing around the living room, just not, not knowing what to do, took me about 20 minutes to remember that was even pregnant. Just remember, as if sort of a million things going through my head, but also none at the same time, just like paralyzed

Claire : 0:52

Rachel was eventually told that her husband, Ant, had died by suicide. Sadly, she was no stranger to grieving, having lost both her parents, who died before her mid 30s,

Chris: 1:01

but in her experience, what followed took her to a whole new level.

Rachel Hart: 1:04

I thought I was familiar with grief and how it feels, but something shocking like this is so, so different. I almost takes your breath away the shock of it.

Claire : 1:14

In this episode, Rachel shares about the blessing that the covid lockdowns turned out to be with a new baby, how she managed her emotions like anger that were tied in with her grief, and what people can say and avoid saying when faced with a story like hers,

Chris: 1:27

and how and when hope returned to help her look to the future.

Rachel Hart: 1:30

I just want to show people that you can go through these kinds of things and you can be happy again one day. I don't think you fully appreciate joy as much as you do, unless you've been to somewhere really dark. You've just got to keep hold of the hope. If you let the hope die too. Then that's that would be the most tragic thing of all.

Chris: 1:46

So lean in and learn from Rachel, who begins by introducing herself,

Rachel Hart: 1:53

Yeah, so I'm a working mum. I've got a four year old little boy who's just started school. I work sort of in rewards and recognition. So I mean, working at home a few days a week, working in the office a couple of days a week, just sort of juggling, juggling that kind of lifestyle, really,

Chris: 2:09

at the time of recording where we are now, you've just logged off work, finished for a couple of weeks for something quite exciting.

Rachel Hart: 2:17

So yeah, a week tomorrow I'm getting married, in Ibiza, feeling still very excited and and yet fortunate to be finding such happiness again as well. We're just a really incredible partner,

Chris: 2:28

amazing before we get into that, and we certainly will get into that. Why Ibiza?

Rachel Hart: 2:32

Just a place that's been really special to me all of my life. I'm starting off in the younger days going out club in there, and we had to season there with some friends and things. It's just a super special place, and I've really felt the magic of it over the years. I've sort of grown with it as well. So when we go now, it's more about the nicer side of the island and just lots of memories from, you know, engagement, friends and even spin called my late husband's ashes there a couple of years ago as well. So yeah, sort of been with me through everything, and really big part of the story. Really love it.

Claire : 3:03

That's lovely to bring all that together the past and the future. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for coming on to speak to us, and we're going to be talking about the death of your husband and But before we talk about grief, and you know how you process that and what happened, tell us a little bit about what life was like before that. So we're going back. Is it five years we're going back?

Rachel Hart: 3:20

Yes, yeah, five years since I lost him, we'd only actually been married 18 months. We'd been together 10 years, and yet just had a really great lifestyle of just fun and friends and holidays and just having a great time. But we just really started to have got settled down. So we got married, which is amazing, and then we bought a house together. We bought our first home together, and yeah, and then we got pregnant. So we had our baby on the way. So yeah, we were in a very, very settled place. It was the most settled I ever thought that we were, and just really excited for the future. And, you know, after growing up together really.

Claire : 3:55

So tell us what happened, and you know how you sort of found out?

Rachel Hart: 3:59

So yeah, I was, I was five months pregnant at the time, and we both worked away quite a lot at that time. So me was working away in Manchester. I was working back in Liverpool, because we'd moved up to Newcastle at the time, and I was looking forward to having him home, so I hadn't seen him all week, and had a special homecoming, prepared, ready for him, excited to because we'd both been working away a lot, and he'd been out going out quite a lot as well, partying and stuff. Yeah, I was excited to get him back, and I hadn't heard of him all day. I'd last seen his WhatsApp status online

at 7: 4:31

35am and I was just spending all day, you know, first thinking that he was just lying in and sleeping off his hangover. But as the day moved on. I was just getting more and more worried because I wasn't hearing back. He hadn't been back on his phone, and getting really stressed. And then a half bore. I got a knock on the door, and it was the police. They come to tell me that he'd be found, and deceased was the word they used in his hotel room. And it was just such a shock. It was so. Unexpected. That's a word that I've if I ever hear that word, it's such a triggering word. I'm sure police officers have training in what to say, but it's just seemed you know, such a formal word to use, really.

Chris: 5:12

Definitely, and yeah, just to come back to what you said a couple of minutes ago about, you know, life was really settled, and then you've got that knock on the door and you hear that word that triggers memories still, so that must have sent you into quite a period of shock and disbelief. And what, what do you remember about the I guess, how you processed that knock on the door onwards? What was that like?

Rachel Hart: 5:35

It was just Yeah, but I've never felt anything like it. Yeah. I remember just sort of pacing around the living room, just not, not knowing what to do as well. Just didn't know, yeah, what you know when you just don't know what your sort of plan of action is, like, do a call someone what they would do? Took me about 20 minutes to remember that was even pregnant. I remember like, because I tried to call his parents first and they didn't answer. I'd also lost both of my parents Young as well, so yeah, and I was in a place where I didn't live, so my family and, you know, my own personal friends from growing up, went there, and it was just like, yeah, who do I call who? Who do I want with me in this moment? But yeah, I remember just being saying to the police that was just like, Oh my God, but I'm pregnant. And they didn't know that either. I just remembered look on their faces. You know, it must have been such a bad day at work for them to have to break that and then find out someone's pregnant too. Just remember, as if, sort of a million things going through my head, but also none at the same time, just like paralyzed.

Chris: 6:38

How long did the police stay with you? Because I don't actually know the formalities of these things. They said it's very formal introduction. Did the police stay with you for a set period of time, or do they just wait for you to say, okay, you can go and how long? How long do you have the police with you?

Rachel Hart: 6:50

And they stayed until someone arrived to be with me. Yeah, I guess, I guess they just wanted to make sure I was safe and and not alone. I guess it would have stayed for hours if they needed to I ended up calling and best friends, and I was really good friends with his his wife at that time, so they came straight round. But even they said, like, they didn't really believe it when I called them, and it was making that phone call as well, like, just, kind of just blurting it out to somebody out of the blue. But they said, Yeah, they didn't believe it. And then they pulled up outside, and there was a police car there, and that was at the point it became real for them as well.

Claire : 7:24

Yeah, there must be a real period of, like, Chris used the word disbelief before, and I've spoken to people who talk about the brain and when we're grieving, and there is this moment of just sort of carrying two lines of thought. You've sort of found out someone's died, but at the same time, your brain is not able to compute that. So they're still they're still living, and you see your mate asking all these questions that can't be real. I only saw him yesterday, all these different things. There must be so many questions at that point. I know you said you got you had everything running through your head and nothing. Is it questions, especially with a death like this, when it's suicide, does it add extra questions to the to the mix that you'd have maybe, if it was a different way of dying?

Rachel Hart: 7:58

Yeah, absolutely millions more questions. And these places, well, they didn't actually know how he had died. Deceased was the only information that they had for me at that point. It was a long time before we found out, because, because he died in Manchester and we were up in the north east, so that that's all they could give me, and that we were on sort of phone calls to Manchester for ages afterwards, being passed around apartments. And yeah, it was a good few hours before we actually knew even how we had died, though that was just really awfully dry up that, and just not having even that one answer for such a long time. But yeah, once you do find that out as well and when, when it is such a shock and you do seem so happy, yeah, it's, it's the why and the how and what have I missed? What have I done? Is it my fault? Just on and on.

Claire : 8:46

Did you have any indication at all that this could have been something that he would have done, or was it just a complete shock out of the blue?

Rachel Hart: 8:52

It was a complete shock out of the blue. But then we'd sort of Yeah, he had had a couple of mental health problems when he was much younger, and I know he'd been sort of very tired and burnt out, and he then seemed to have a few you can not concerns about becoming a dad, but I know he was very anxious about it, very nervous about it. But I just thought that was normal. I was anxious and nervous about becoming a mom as well. So, yeah, I don't know whether that it's, yeah, it's just sort of becoming a grown up, and I don't know, I think it's seen something recently, actually, about it being very common for men to take their own lives, sort of around the time of having new babies or afterwards. It's something I haven't read up on just yet, but I have seen that that is quite a common time. Suppose it can be a trigger, especially if you're struggling with issues, and if you're keeping it to yourself, then maybe you know you might have been doubting his abilities to be your father. Just just don't know. And he has to mind a funny thing, isn't it? And he would have been an absolutely amazing dad, and he probably knew that too, but who knows what his own mind was telling him as well if he was struggling. Yeah.

Claire : 9:59

Thank you for sharing that, because I think not something we talk about very often. So I think it's important for people to know that when you hear about someone dying by suicide, it isn't always the case that there's been lots of attempts before, or that there's something you know, this is a big issue that everyone's dealing with. Sometimes it can just happen in a way that that is a shock to the family. So I think it's important to explore those kind of areas.

Rachel Hart: 10:18

Yeah, I think it seems, it seems really common that it's a shock as well. I think from everyone I've spoken to or met along my journey.

Chris: 10:26

What do you think the timescale was like before you did come to accept that it had happened? Was it a matter of hours or days or weeks before you know it had sunk in?

Rachel Hart: 10:37

I'd say months. Yeah, months, maybe even longer, and it's just like waking up every morning. I think anyone you know suffered loss knows that feeling of waking up in the morning, and then you forget that it happens, and then it comes back to you. But this was like it was Oscar child. As I said, I've lost both my parents, so I thought I was familiar with grief and how it feels. But something shocking like this is so, so different. I almost like, you know, takes your breath away the shock of it, and it takes, it takes so much longer to sink in. Definitely.

Chris: 11:12

Just elaborate on that a bit with your parents. You said, I thought I knew, I thought I was familiar with grief. What's your summary of what it was like to grieve losing both your parents at quite a young age.

Rachel Hart: 11:23

And I lost my dad at 20, and I don't think I really processed that so much at the time, and it's only now looking back when I realized just how tragic it was, because he was only 46 he died from lung cancer. And you're, I was young, but I don't you don't really appreciate just how young your parents are. Do you when you're that young? I think about this quite a lot. I remember people starting to say, Oh, you're you're so strong, and things like that to me. And as a young person with no experience of you know what that really means and how actually, that's a bad thing to say to someone. As soon as someone said I was strong, I thought of, Oh, wow. I might have never been called strong before. So, you know, I must keep this up. I've got to keep going. And I was in university at the time, so I just sort of threw myself into that and worked really hard to do well and made it proud. But then, remember, it just took me a long time to really get over it, because I would only get fully upset about it when I'd sort of let my own guard down with myself, if that makes any sense. And then I lost my mum when I was 34 and she was 54 and, yeah, she was ill with breast cancer for quite a long time. You know, it was, it's the hardest thing ever, losing your mum. It's so sad, and you never really get over it. But yeah, compared to the shock of that kind of grief, it is just totally different. There's just an extra layer to come to terms with. Yeah, what

Claire : 12:40

are the sort of differences? Is it something that you can pinpoint? If you said to somebody that you'd lost your husband, and they said, Oh, I lost my husband, but it's under different circumstances. Is there something in you where you know the grief is different for you because there was suicide involved, or do you think that's not part of it? It's just all grief and it kind of all rolls together.

Rachel Hart: 12:56

I think it is different. I think it's the questions. Yeah, I think it's the questions and sort of you blame yourself a little bit, and you wonder whether it's something that you've done that's a really massive one. But then you also get suicide as well. There's all stigma attached with it, the shame, and no one can relate to you as well. First, you just when you're telling people, you wonder if you're getting judged for it, because, yeah, because people might think that it's something you've done. You think that people might think that maybe you weren't as happy as as you've appeared. It's taboo as well. People don't really talk about it. People just don't really know what to what to do or say in that situation.

Claire : 13:33

Yeah, I think it's, it's a really difficult one, like we said before. Many times talking about grief is something that people really struggle with. You throw in sometimes the way they died. And we've done a few episodes with different types that people have died, and people find that even more awkward. If there's sex involved, if there's suicide involved, anything like that, people find that really difficult. And then you've got the element of being pregnant as well. So I would imagine for a lot of people, if you were to give them your full story up front and say, I lost my husband while I was five months pregnant, suicide. That's something that is going to freeze a lot of people in the conversation, because they haven't got a clue where to start on what to say. So if we help them out a little bit, is there things that people said or did or you'd have liked them to say or do that just would have really sort of been encouraging and sort of helpful to you along the way to sort of help people who feel like, Oh, I'm just so awkward I don't know what to say in that situation.

Rachel Hart: 14:24

Yeah, I think it's just like language people use as well, right? Whenever you hear someone say committed suicide, it's like, well, that's so bad, because that's just Yes, sort of, it's a crime or a sin, doesn't it? And that's just really unhelpful language. And this is the same for any grief as well, and not just specific to suicide, but when people just cry and find like, oh, at least this or, you know, they're out with pain. And I could see people scrambling around for an at least when I died, they were like, oh, at least you've got the baby. That's just like, it was probably the worst thing about it for me at that time. I mean, it's not now, of course, but. So at the time, it was like, I just want to escape, or want to have a drink for a start, but I just want to be able to just like, No, I'm gonna get get over this, and it's not going to define me for the rest of my life. But at that point, I had had a baby, and it was like I was going to sort of be, you know, stuck to the nightmare in that period of time, forever, and you can't really see a way out of that. But then you think, you know, you've got, you've got the baby as well. You can't, you can't just run away. You can't, you're stuck on you. It's, it's difficult. Yeah, in terms of suicide, I think it's just sort of treat it like any other kind of grief. Really Don't, don't skate around the issue. Just, you know, just use normal language, don't, don't try and look on bright sides, and don't be afraid to say how they died. But then there's also the other side of it as well. When you do have people asking why all the time, and I mean, it's a very valid question. It was obviously the first one I asked. But you know, on that front there's either two answers, one, they do know why, and then they might not want to share that because, you know, they say bubble bears and pop obviously hasn't wanted to as well and couldn't live because of it. Or if you don't know the answer, then them asking you why? And you say, and you don't know, is really, really difficult, because you know, you're then thinking, Oh, have I missed something? Should I have spot as a sign? Should I have stopped it? So I think that's a big one. Just, yeah, don't question why. Just, you know, you'll say how sad it is and how sad it is for the person. It's just tragic, isn't it, and it's how it should be treated.

Claire : 16:28

You've mentioned the question, why? Then one of our questions that we ask every guest is whether that is something that's haunted them, and normally that's a generic Why have I lost this person? Or it could be lots of different why questions. But like you've just pointed out it actually has a very different meaning in a situation like this, because it could be, why did they do it? So I'm not specifically asking you that, but is this a question of why you've had to go through this situation? Is that something that has has haunted you? Have you made peace with that? Did you never ask the question, What has your relationship been with the question, why? Not so much.

Rachel Hart: 16:59

You know what I've always sort of avoided asking, you know, sort of like, Why me? Or why is this happening to me? And I think it's because I've had, like, so much lost. I don't know. I don't think it's good to sort of be like, Why me? Don't know it. It's actually a question I've never really asked. But yeah, in terms of sort of Aunt dying, there was always a way of because he, he was on a work night out, and he hadn't wanted to go. And I sort of talked him into it, and just said, you know, one, one last night, one last night out, and then you can come back and you can settle down. We had, like, nursery furniture to build and stuff. And there was, there was all those, those whys from my own viewpoint of, you know, why did I tell him to go? Why didn't I spot the signs that kind of thing was, where my Whys were. Why didn't he speak to me as well? Was a was another really big one. Why didn't he just talk, not even just me, really, you know, if he didn't want to talk to me about it, why didn't he talk to a friend, which, why didn't he talk to someone? So, yeah, in terms of a why, and I think that would be a very common one, from someone who's lost someone to suicide would be a why didn't they just speak up to someone or anyone, no even to a charity or a helpline, anybody?

Chris: 18:07

I want to just pick up on the taboo element, taboo subject element, again, we referred to recently, because if and when we hear about somebody that's died, let's say too soon in their younger years, then the first or the next question that follows is usually how what happened? What was your experience of finding ways to answer that question you refer to the feelings of shame. Did that change how you applied? Did you were you quite upfront to say straight away suicide? Or did you try and avoid using that word? What was that experience like?

Rachel Hart: 18:45

To be honest, I was just one of those things where there was no point in in not talking about it really. And I think as much as I experienced the stigma of it, the shame, I did sort of appreciate that was there, but there was just no other way around it, really. Just say that he took his own life then, yeah, I still, still get that kind of thing. Now, like, our little boy aunt had really dark black hair, and me and my current partner have both got blonde hair, and it's so common. You know, when you start in school and you go to, like, kids parties and things and people always say, oh, where does he get his dark hair from? And it's just a really tricky one to answer, because, like you said before, Claire, you don't, you don't just want to be like, oh, you know, promise is dad who died or whatever. And sometimes that's not, that's not so much for me, it's just you don't want to put the other person in in an awkward situation.

Claire : 19:37

How have you navigated that with your son so far? Because obviously he's still quite young, but I'm guessing people must ask him about his dad. Have you had to sort of come up with a way of helping him explain that?

Rachel Hart: 19:48

Yeah. So you know, he knows that he had another dad who was wasn't well, so he's died. He knows that, but as well as we've gone, we're sort of talking about that at the moment. I say he's only four. Yeah, I do. Really worry about the future with that sort of planning, how to explain it as he as he gets older, and I think especially because I was pregnant at the time it, you know, I don't want him to feel abandoned or hurt by himself. So it's, yeah, it's, it's a very difficult one, and it's something that I worry about all the time, about how to navigate it. You know, I'm just going to shut down that you can, you can get sick in your minds as well as in your body to start with, and then just sort of take it from there. I'm hoping that it'll just come naturally when the time is right. But, yeah, it's going to be very difficult for him, but I'm just making, you know, a really big effort with him to make sure that he's always talking about his feelings and that he knows not to bottle things up and to always share if he's worried or stressed. So probably, yeah, the best you can do and just just go with, go with the cues from him.

Claire : 20:48

I think it's hard as an adult, isn't it, let alone trying to process these things as a child? Yeah, absolutely. Talk to us about the time afterwards, because obviously for a lot of people, you lose somebody, and then you could take months, years, to just process that and get over it, but you had four months or so before then you had to go through giving birth and having a son. There's a lot other things on your mind. If I was going to take a stab at it, I'd say that would have been an incredibly difficult time. So help us understand what that was like. Did it like reopen the grief? Did the grief just stay raw all the way through, because you knew what was coming. You know, how was that?

Rachel Hart: 21:24

Yeah, you know, once had sort of got over the initial shock and sort of settled into the fact that I was going to be having a baby on my own and things like that. Once, once, I sort of come to terms with that a little bit. And I mean, one of the first things I did after aunt died, he really wanted to find out the sex of the baby, and I never did. I wanted a surprise. I think it was two days after he died, I booked in to get a gender scan because I just thought, I need to, I need to know exactly what I'm in for here. Like, you know, everything was unclear about what the future was going to halt, but I thought as well if, if I knew what, what the sex of the baby was, and I was going to be able to bond with them a little bit more effectively. And then get things in place and have a clear idea in the future. And that did really help, you know, once I was able to give him a name and and, you know, know exactly what I was getting into, but, yeah, so I was really, really excited and a bit naively, really, I thought, you know, when, when the baby comes, everything's going to be okay. When you label of mum is going to trump the other one of widow. But yeah, wasn't like that at all. I realized that, you know, they were going to coexist side by side, and it was yet another new identity to sort of grapple with as well. And I did find that really, really difficult in the beginning. And yeah, it did open up a lot of resentment and stuff as well, and a lot of anger, which was quite a new emotion. I don't know if it was just because, you know, I had this son as well, and I had this little baby, I found these new emotions of just being really, really angry and for a long time. And, yeah, I think that was just all down to, like, having to do something so difficult on my own that, but something that was never planned to be done. So one, it was always meant to be two of us took a little while to get over those feelings as well. And that's that's another sort of emotion that comes with suicide, that you probably don't get too much with. Another kind of grief is, is that anger with someone, and it's a really difficult one to admit to.

Chris: 23:11

Sometimes, how did you process the anger then clearly you've recognized it, or you had recognized it at the time. Were there any, were there things that people said or did, or things that you did, read, watched, that just helped you find an outlet for that that was healthy and helpful.

Rachel Hart: 23:28

Yeah, I think I sort of channeled it into sort of my own healing a little bit, though. Yeah. And so my son was born in the December, and then it was covid in the March, so we actually went into lockdown, and it was, you know, and I know it was such a difficult time for so many people, but for me, it was such a blessing, because, yeah, it felt like the rest of the world stopped as well. Just as I'd stopped. Life goes on around you so much when you're grieving someone, and it's really, really painful to go through that. But yet this time, everything stopped as well with me, and I didn't have to go to baby groups. I didn't have to go to like lunches and lunches with friends, which was actually such a blessing for me, because I always worried about going to baby groups. You know, if it was listening to other mums talking about the dads not helping with the night feeds or things like that, and I would have found that really difficult. Or, do you know, the questions that might have come up in those sort of situations with new mums. But yeah, I just walked for hours every day and listened to music. And it really, really helps me through it. Just a lot of thinking, a lot of lot of time to myself, just walking up and down with the pram. And, yeah, I don't think you would really get that too much normally, because, you know, after, after a few months, you have to go back to work, don't you, and at that point, life is going on, and you've got to sort of go with it. But, yeah, it was, it was a really helpful time for me,

Chris: 24:50

Just thinking, how, how quickly I jump to conclusions. You know, I if I'm out driving to work or supermarket or whatever, and I pass a young man. On with a pushchair, pram. You know, you just think, Wow, isn't life perfect yet? Then reality. Have no idea what's going on with that person. You have no idea what their story is, what their current season of life is. You were from the outside in. We may just assume that everything's rosy, yeah, but it's quite a different story when you get to meet that person.

Rachel Hart: 25:20

So true, isn't it? I think that's why you always just need to be nice to people as well, like, smile at strangers. Like, I love it when someone says hello to you when you're walking past. And it doesn't happen often enough, does it, but a little thing like that can make someone's day. And you know, like you say, she just never know what's what's going on with someone. You know, if people have been a little bit kind of true, amped, I don't know. I don't know, but, or, you know, to anyone who's having as bad a time as he was, I mean, I think everyone was kind, but, you know, you just don't know what's going on internally.

Claire : 25:51

No, you're right. I think kindness is a really big thing. We make a lot of assumptions of people, whether it's assuming they have children, assuming they have a partner, assuming they have any help, there's a lot of assumptions which can be really hurtful and damaging when they when they land on the wrong person. So, yeah, I think that kindness is is a really key thing across across the board. Really, your Instagram is love loss and disco balls. Yes, so tell me how the disco ball element comes into all this.

Rachel Hart: 26:18

Like, it's just, it's, you know, I really love dance music, and it's been such a big part of my life. As we said, I've got sort of the about Ibiza connection. That's how I met. And yeah, just, yeah, just, and it just really cheers me up, dancing and nights out and house music, really,

Chris: 26:37

Again, I know having looked at your social media profiles that there's similarities with something that's that's got quite big and popular in the last couple of years, something called Kintsugi, like, Is it Japanese art where you sort of, if a pot or some sort of ceramic is broken, it's then pieced back together and glued back together, but with glue with gold in it, or sort of gold looking glue. So, so the broken pot almost looks more precious after it's been fixed, because it has this beautiful gold weaving around the cracks. And then the similar thing with the disco balls that you know, a disco ball is actually made up of lots of broken bits of glass. You may feel like you have nothing to offer because you're broken, but actually something pretty spectacular can come from those pieces being put back together in a different way. You know, they weren't that way originally, but they're put back in a way that's quite beautiful as well. So there's quite a bit of depth in that, isn't there? Really, yeah, absolutely.

Rachel Hart: 27:33

That's the first quote that I've got pinned on my Instagram wall, actually, because, yeah, it's exactly, sort of hopefully defines my life then, and how I feel about about sort of healing, and how you should try and move forward with life like, I think it's dad guru says something about that as well. Like, you know, like the more hardship you go through, and the more trauma and grief you experience in your life, that it just makes you wiser earlier, because all these experiences do, ultimately, do make you wiser. You know, sad to say, Oh, you've got to keep on living your life and learn from everything that happens to you.

Claire : 28:10

The other thing I've noticed on your Instagram is is hope. It says at the top that you're a purveyor of hope, which is something that's right up there with our our kind of goal with the podcast. So tell us what your journey's been like with hope. Has that always been there, or is that something you've had to cultivate since?

Rachel Hart: 28:25

Sort of a defining moment for that for me when my dad died, my mum was in such a dark place, of course, you know, I saw her at her absolute lowest, and she met a new partner a year after we lost my dad, and she was really happy again. And you know, she wasn't that much older than me when I lost aunt. And one of the first thoughts that I had when that happened was my mum was okay again. After she we lost my dad, it almost felt like she was, sort of like she put that thought in my head to sort of guide me from from beyond the grave. And that is hope, isn't it? I think for hope as well, sometimes you need proof. And I think that's why we, we sort of all do what we're doing in this space, isn't it to try and provide proof to people and evidence that one day you can be okay again? You know, sometimes, yeah, you do worry you're sort of showing off with your happiness again, and something I'm quite conscious of. But it's not that I just want to show people that you can go through these kinds of things and you can be happy again one day. I mean, it's always to learn, but you can go on to live your life. Yeah,

Claire : 29:25

it's so important. I think, like you just said, just watching someone else get through it sometimes can be enough just to give you a seed of, well, maybe I can do this too, and it's not easy. It still hurts, but I think that's really important, and that's what we want these sorts of interviews to do. We want people to hear them and think, wow, if Rachel can get through that, then maybe I can too. And I think that's that's a powerful thing to have, especially, like you said that it's not uncommon for partners to lose people when they're pregnant. That seems like a, you know, really horrific stage to lose somebody at, but to hear something like your story is powerful, and to see the happiness on the other side is powerful. So ...

Rachel Hart: 29:58

Yeah, that was my first part of call, actually. Late, when, when I'm died, was to, sort of, I was just scouring the internet, looking for people who, who'd found happiness again, and someone to, you know, to relate to. And yeah, there's, there's plenty of people out there.

Chris: 30:10

Have there been any things or people, objects, I don't know, Netflix series, anything that have been just really, almost like life saving in inverted commas, things that you couldn't have done without, things that have just given you a bit of a, you know, a cheer if you need it, or encouragement, or, you know, you're not alone, shared the message of, of not feeling alone or lonely. Has there been anything or anyone that you couldn't done without?

Rachel Hart: 30:34

I think books for me, really, yeah, just Yeah, reading, reading other people's stories, especially, sort of, there's a writer called Nora McInerny, and her books really helped me through. And what I liked about them was, sort of, they took there was a bit of humor in them all about the sort of, you know, the the annoying things that people keep saying and doing when you grieve and but you kind of joked about them as well. And as soon as I sort of realized that it was okay to laugh as well as cry. Really, really helped us in trying to find the humor where you can in anything, or just trying to just not make it so completely dark, and realize there is still a bit of light in life. If you could, if you can manage, to look for it.

Claire : 31:18

Is that what you'd want people to know about your story and situation, because it would be easy to assume it's all darkness that you know that looks like a horrific thing to go through.

Rachel Hart: 31:26

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the whole message, and that's the whole reason that I'm sharing this story really sort of twofold, like I do want to make sure people are checking in on their friends and raise awareness about suicide. That's that's really, really vital to me and what I'm trying to do. And then for people who, you know, who are in those early stages of grief where you just can't imagine that you're ever going to be okay again, or you're ever going to smile, that the can be light at the end of the tunnel and you will be okay again, you're never going to forget the people that you've lost. And you know, there's still going to be bad days, but you can go on to find happiness and joy again. Just gotta be open to it and just try your hardest. Because, you know, it's a mindset thing as well. You've just got to keep hold of the hope, haven't you? If you let the hope die too, then that's that would be the most tragic thing of all.

Chris: 32:16

And with the work that you're doing, the suicide prevention awareness and just and raising awareness, all the conversations you've had, all the time you've spent thinking, talking, reading, learning. Are there any sort of key themes that just come up again and again and again when you're talking to somebody that you realize they don't know, or I wish they knew this because you've learned are there any key theme, themes or headlines that you share with other people about suicide?

Rachel Hart: 32:40

Yeah, I think, I think the main one is, and it seems to be so very common when people are so happy in their life until the party, it is very common that it's always people that you don't really expect. So, yeah, just check in on your friends. But really check in. I think people just, you know, they do the how are you? Oh, I'm fine. Like, sometimes you just shouldn't take fine for an answer. I think that's the most important thing I've learned, just making sure to really, really, genuinely make sure someone's okay.

Claire : 33:10

I saw that you'd posted that your fiance had gone away, and that sometimes that prompts feelings, fear or anxiety because, because you're being separated in that way. How have you dealt with things like that that have come into your life because of what you've been through?

Rachel Hart: 33:24

Yeah, I mean, that was such a big shock for me. I wasn't expecting it was the first time we went away. And, yeah, I just I thought I was okay, to be honest, I thought I'd come come through naively, without any sort of mental scars, and he went away. And, yeah, because ant had been away, it was so triggering. I was just absolutely convinced that he wasn't coming back. It seemed more likely that he wasn't going to come back than he was. And I just spent three days in absolute hysterics. I was so upset, and I couldn't, just couldn't get these intrusive thoughts out in my mind. But for me, the most important thing I did for that was to tell him that I'd been that way. So, you know, every time he goes anywhere, now, we not anywhere, but you know, if he checks in with me all the time, he keeps me updated on where he is, lets me know he's safe. But you know, the more time back to the sort of proofs thing, the more, the more times he's been anywhere and been away, the easier it is, because I'm getting the proof that if someone goes away, they are going to come back. But yeah, it's just sharing and being being honest about your feelings, even you know how over the top they may seem to you, the valid and you know it's working with someone and making sure that you're getting what you need, isn't it? And you feel safe.

Chris: 34:38

You've referred a couple of times in our conversation to learning almost or experiencing things that need to coexist together, which before I started doing the podcast, before we started on our journey with childlessness, you know, I'd have been of the naive view that you go through something bad, and then it comes to an end, and it's over, and then you move on to something else. Uh, and life gets better because that is over. And then the more people were supposed to like you, the more I realized that actually there is space for things to coexist. And you know, there will there can always be that hole there. It's just what you do with it, or what you do around it. So you're heading off into the sunshine soon to get married, which is brilliant, and we celebrate that with you. How do you view the future now and just being realistic about things need to coexist together. You know, there is this, this past story, there's things with your mum and dad. There's things with this story, with Aunt coexisting that grief and still being aware of that. How do you view the future now?

Rachel Hart: 35:37

You know what? I just feel like going through all that makes makes the good stuff feel even better as well. I don't think you fully appreciate joy as much as you do unless you've been to somewhere really dark. Yeah, it definitely makes everything sort of more intense, but it also makes it scary at the same time, because you know how quickly things can change in an instant. And yeah, it's difficult at times of just sort of like going away and stuff, to not let that overtake it can be a really scary place to be sometimes, but at the same time, it makes you appreciate what you have so much more. So yeah, it's quite confusing. And there's, there's a lot going on, and as we all know, it's you could answer one way one day and another way, another day, depends how you are that day. But yeah, yeah, it makes a joy stronger, but it makes it scarier as well at the same time.

Chris: 36:30

So really value your time, Rachel and for what you've shared, and we're so grateful for that. Always amazes me with the people that we speak to on the podcast, how they're able to sort of summarize or find one particular element of, you know, healthy learning, that they can share with others, which is why we asked the final question that we do about something that can be passed on, that You've nurtured, that you've grown, that's healthy, that you can pass on to somebody else, that they too, can take on board, and it may help them, and so on and so forth. So the final question then, Rachel, what's your Herman?

Rachel Hart: 37:05

So my Herman would be music. Really, I think music is just such a beautiful way of sharing memories and creating memories. So you know, if I hear a song that reminds me of someone or someone's loved one, or my own loved ones, I will always share that I've heard it with someone, or making playlists with people just but yeah, I was looking at sort of what a Herman means, and it's something that you can't really buy, and something that grows and something that out last year. And yeah, I think music's a really good example of that. It's a way of sharing a memory and just sort of triggers something completely different in your brain. And I think, yeah, by sharing that, it makes it even better.

Claire : 37:46

Music, we will all know the power of it in so many different ways and for different reasons. It's something that helps us emotionally, physically, spiritually, mentally. It evokes thinking, singing, dancing, moving, and can stir emotions and memories in a way that few other things can and to share that with others, to pass on what's helped us, to help others is a really beautiful thing, because music always outlasts us. It moves down the generations, meaning something new to each person it encounters. And I'd love to think that that's what a Herman is at its heart, and that physical Hermans could do that too.

Chris: 38:19

You can follow Rachel on www.Instagram/lovelossdiscoballs and head to the show notes, where I'll put the links Rachel mentioned, including the author, Nora McInerny and a few recommended charities that help support those who are suicidal or dealing with suicide.

Claire : 38:33

And I want to just take a moment to reiterate the importance of language around suicide deaths. A lot of us will still automatically say someone committed suicide, not necessarily meaning anything hurtful by it, but because it's a phrase that we've been around in society. However, using the word committed harks back to the days when suicide was seen as a crime or judged as a sin, like when people committed murder. This can be really hurtful and hard to hear for those dealing with a suicide death, and I know for some people, this is going to be new information, so I wanted to just take a moment to explain it and help you out. So instead of saying committed suicide, say died by suicide, lost their life to suicide, or took their own life, there are lots of ways we can change the language and conversation around these kind of deaths. And I've put a link in the show notes to a PDF from a campaign called shining a light on suicide to help you learn new language around this and help to talk to anyone that you might be concerned about.

Chris: 39:30

For more about us, head to our website, www.thesilentwhy.com or follow us on social media@thesilentwhypod. And we want to offer a big thank you to those that support the podcast in Claire's work monthly through www.buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy.

Claire : 39:42

Yes, this podcast is only really possible because of a few people who support it monthly to pay for the cost of running and hosting it. This money is a lifeline for the podcast, and I'm constantly honored and encouraged that people would want to support my work in this area purely because they have a heart to help others who are grieving and listening. I. Like you. If you've been blessed by any of our guests or the work of the podcast, you can join them to help carry the load by visiting buy me a coffee.com/the. Silent why that link is in all our show notes. There, you can either buy me a coffee or a few or a fancy tea. Or you can support the work of the podcast monthly from as little as three pounds or four US dollars a month, there are certain rewards you get with each level of support. And for one of them, you get your name on our website. So I want to give a very big personal thank you and a virtual hug. And you might want to join me, because they're the reason you're listening right now to Evelyn, Peter, Jackie, Diane and Greg. You are wonderful people that I thank God for.

Chris: 40:38

We want to keep this podcast ad free and one off donations and monthly support for the podcast are what allows us to do that. There's a page on the website that tells you about all the ways you can support our work. Plus, don't forget, you can also buy a Herman to give to someone who's struggling in the moment, and the cost of those also supports the work of the podcast. All links are in the show notes. Right? We finish every episode with a quote, and this episode is no different, but we're going to use a few different quotes for a very special reason.

Claire : 41:03

Yes, I wanted to find a quote about a disco ball, since that's something that's very close to Rachel Hart's heart.

Chris: 41:09

Oh, nice.

Claire : 41:09

Just need to say that once, and in my searching, I realized they're actually a symbol of hope for many people. In fact, the American singer Sylvester is quoted as actually saying "the disco ball is a symbol of hope,"

Chris: 41:21

And pop group ABBA said"it's like a beacon of hope that shines bright in the darkness".

Claire : 41:25

Sister Sledge said the same thing.

Chris: 41:27

And Boy George said "the disco ball represents the hope and possibility of something magical happening."

Claire : 41:32

And the final words we're sharing are borrowed from Rachel's Instagram feed by an unknown author: "A disco ball is hundreds of pieces of broken glass put together to make a magical ball of light. You aren't broken. You are a disco ball."