Loss 54/101: Loss through addiction: Lisa Newman

#106. Ever felt the grip of serious addiction? Drink and drug addictions can destroy life, but what about the person in recovery who's celebrating being 'clean' while also having to accept the loss of the many things ruined by years of misuse?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss.

Loss #54 of 101: Loss through addiction

We're so excited to share this episode, not only is it an episode that's been requested by those who have been through it, but it looks into a topic that is hugely connected to grief, yet so often overlooked - addiction.

Addiction can cause the loss of health, relationships, family, control, identity, freedom, money, homes, even life itself, and so much more. So when you reach recovery, and are then faced with all you've lost, how do you grieve that?

In this episode we chat to Lisa Newman from the beautiful town of Stroud in England. We've known Lisa for a few years and she agreed to come and talk to us about the loss and grief she’s experienced through addiction to alcohol and drugs.

Addiction entered her life when she was around 10 years old, and in the following decades it took her to some dark places which later saw her homeless, in prison and in-and-out of hospital.

Lisa shares her journey with us including; the grief of now being single and childless, the pain of watching friends have grandchildren, the precautions she has to take to use pain medication, the loss of friends to addiction, the pain and confusion for those around her, what recovery has been like, and the challenges of rebuilding a life while also mourning the loss of the life you thought you’d have.

This is a very honest and important conversation about the power of addiction, the power of being free/clean, but also the live-changing power of hope and gratitude. 

Lisa now spends her time helping other people come off drink and drugs, for more about her, visit:
www.recalibrate-recovery.com
www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-newman-recalibraterecoverycoach/
www.instagram.com/lisadoesyoga

Transcript

Lisa: 0:02

Hi, I'm Lisa, and I'm here to talk about loss through addiction.

Claire : 0:08

Hello, welcome to The Silent Why podcast. If you're a regular then thank you and welcome back. I'm Claire.

Chris: 0:13

If you're new to us, you're very welcome. We're really glad you found us. And I'm Claire's other half, Chris.

Claire : 0:18

And we're on a podcast mission to find 101 different types of loss and grief, specifically to hear from those who have been through them to see if it's possible to find hope in every kind of loss.

Chris: 0:28

In this episode, we're chatting to an inspiring woman who I met a few years ago, Lisa Newman. Plus, it's another recording we were fortunate enough to do in person.

Claire : 0:36

Yup some people are surprised to hear that almost all of our interviews are recorded through online conversations using software a bit like Zoom. But occasionally someone is local enough or we know them well enough to record in person. And in nearly 200 episodes, this is only the third time that we've had that privilege.

Chris: 0:53

Lisa lives nearby in the beautiful and now very sought after town of Stroud, she agreed to come and talk to us about the loss and grief that she's experienced through addiction to alcohol and drugs. This addiction first entered her life as young as 10 years old and sadly took her down into some dark places as she was growing up.

Lisa: 1:11

My dad for his own protection for a lot of that time, could not have a relationship with me. I remember spending my 40th birthday in prison and not getting a birthday card from my dad and that breaking my heart.

Claire : 1:25

Lisa talks about the impact of years of addiction, what it was that broke her open and the challenges of rebuilding a life in recovery, while also mourning the loss of a life that you thought you were going to have.

Lisa: 1:36

There's lots of losses and griefs along the way. I don't have children. Now I don't have grandchildren. And that's almost like this new wave of grief. Same with relationships never really settled down or found a healthy relationship. There's a lot of I wouldn't say regrets. But moments when I look and I think cod, what would life have been like if the sliding doors had meant that I'd stayed on the path at that time, if I hadn't had those 10 years of of a relapse.

Chris: 2:07

But through it all, Lisa kept such a firm grasp on hope. And the power that hope contains for positive change.

Lisa: 2:14

It's so underrated honestly, people have no ideas when you have had zero hope have the tiniest little gesture can be the thing that gives that person a bit of hope. And that is what lit up the flame in my heart that goes I don't care what it's going to take. I'm going to fight for my life. And that's what hope can do. Hope can be the generator for motivating somebody to turn their life around.

Claire : 2:42

And if you're a superfan of the podcast and you think you recognise Lisa's voice, then you're correct. You have heard it before.

Chris: 2:48

Lisa was actually part of our Christmas episode when we asked her previous and future guests to tell us why they find Christmas hard, and what helps them get through it. We know that you're going to love her and what she has to share. And that you're totally going to understand why she's so good at helping other people come off drugs and alcohol. We started the chat as we often do by asking her to tell us a bit about an average week for her.

Lisa: 3:11

I am Lisa and I am a recovery coach, I have my own business agency helping people coming off drugs and alcohol. I've done various different jobs along the way. My average week is never average. It can vary vastly. It's just great to finally be here because I think we've been trying to do this for probably a year or maybe even more

Claire : 3:37

Yeah, probably at least a year.

Chris: 3:39

And to be here in person.

Lisa: 3:40

Yay!

Chris: 3:43

Which is really nice for us to be able to I think you're the third guest that we've had in person on third time, and it makes such a difference.

Lisa: 3:51

Well, I like being here. And I like your room.

Claire : 3:53

Thank you. Take us back a bit then to what was like growing up for you. And when did addiction come into your life? When did that start?

Lisa: 4:00

So this is in hindsight, because what I now know of addiction is that it's more than just drugs and alcohol. And I suppose it wasn't until I started going into rehab and having psychiatrists or counsellors or therapists or group where I started realising Oh, wow, so my addiction started as a young girl in boarding school through acting out in eating disorder, I didn't even know it was an eating disorder. And at the time, it was nothing to do with food or not being happy with my body because I was too young for that. But I now realise that I acted out in those ways because I found it really difficult to navigate my emotions. As an example. My parents lived in Hong Kong. And by the way, I don't blame them for for this. They lived in Hong Kong and it was the norm to send their you know, your young kids to boarding school. And so I get on a plane, I'm in a boarding school in Somerset and I go from an Asian diet to an English diet. And we were made to eat the food. And I had a hard time there. I mean, I was a young girl, I went there from the age of eight, coming on to nine. And I was branded naughty, if you like. So I was often punished. And I think that the levels of rage that I felt that wasn't able to be expressed, I found other ways that I could deal with those. So for me, I'd say my addiction started, then 910 years old. And and that's quite insane to think that, wow. But addiction can start at such a young age. But maybe and I hear a lot of people who have other addictions, food in particular, where they they remember, food being their addiction from three or four years old hiding under lardo, plundering a load of sugar. And sugar definitely became a part of another addiction. And then I started nicking things from shops, I had this fixation on stickers and stationery.

Claire : 6:20

Oh, that seems to be so clean and healthy.

Lisa: 6:28

I loved it! And obviously, it wasn't right. But I didn't, I didn't know that. So drugs when they came along, I didn't have a healthy level of fear, things that I should have been protective over all protected of myself over. Rather than being frightened, I turned fear into excitement from a very young age, right from when I was first going on the planes to come over to England. And so when drugs first got offered, and when alcohol first came into my life, I didn't, I didn't think oh, just have the one or some of the things that didn't even ask what they were, you know, pills or substances in. In Hong Kong in particular, I wouldn't even know what they were and so didn't have that healthy protection of value for my life, which is quite sad, really, because it was quite young. And, but right from the early stages, I drank to almost blackout and I'd take substances that I recognised that I was taking them differently from other people. So I might be out in town and and often in some dangerous places in Hong Kong, or I'd be on some, you know, something nice like a boat, but I would be the one that what didn't want to stop or was hunting around for what's next what you know, more. So it was it was young. Really, it was young. Now when I look at young 10, 11, 12, 13 year olds, I think, oh, you know, stay young. Enjoy your youth go and get dirty and build dens but yeah, I don't know if that's still really going on.

Chris: 8:19

And can you summarise what was sort of what length of time I guess if the start was that excitement rather than fear, almost a conclusion of that coming into recovery, what sort of length of time were you in a in a bad place.

Lisa: 8:33

A long, long length of time, and I will get a bit more specific than that. So se 13 was more drinkin exploring substances pill popping mainly. And I would snort a line of something every now and then. I left school in 1989. And back then it was kind of the chemical era it was the days of free parties and getting in getting in a car and a convoy and looking for where the free party was and going dancing, dancing fields for a few days. So that probably kept me in some fun addiction if you like, for a few years, but I still always wanted a profession. I still always had this drive to want to succeed in my life. So I did go to university and so I had times where I'd go right I'm going to stop taking that hard stuff because by then I tried to crack and I tried some heroin and I thought oh, I think they're I don't know if it was necessarily fear, but it was more ah, I want to succeed in life. I want a degree I want I had this motivation to become somebody and I was passionate about psychology and sociology and Communication Studies and and so I went and did a degree and the same pattern. So for me, it's more about patterns that would happen of having this motivation to want to stop using certain substances, I didn't really understand the nature of addiction then. So I think, Okay, I'll stop the hard stuff, I might just smoke a bit of weed, or back then it was best solid. And I'll have the occasional drink. And and then what would happen was that the first year of university was okay. And then by the last year, I barely remember it, and was on heroin on crack, don't remember my finals, did my dissertation in about 72 hours, scrambled it together, and had the passion and drive and what I was really in love with at the beginning of my degree had disappeared. And so I ended up first in rehab, the year after I left university, which I was 24, at the time, it was 1997, I'd already attempted to come off heroin a couple of times before that through methadone. And realised it was really hard, because what would happen is that I'd come off methadone. And one of those times I was in America, I'd come off methadone, and I would feel as though I was losing my mind. And I'd think, Oh, my God, I am on the edge. And I'm going crazy. So I didn't realise that you needed to be able to fill that hole that you feel with addiction up with something. And whether or not that's the personal development side of it, the 12 steps, something spiritual, something that's substantial enough for me to feel like, okay, I can function in the world with this pain, because it's painful coming off the chemicals, you suddenly realise why you took drugs in the first place, because pain comes to the surface.

Claire : 12:02

Do you feel when you're in the middle of all this happening? Do you feel like you're in control? Or do you feel trapped by the circumstances?

Lisa: 12:09

Yeah, interesting. So a lot of people that have done the research and the science and studied addiction, it's quite known that denial and delusion and justification and rationalisation is is part of the I don't always want to call it illness disease, part of addiction. But I think that plays a part. I think it plays a part and I see it in other people who are in their early stages or wanting to, to give up or or or even family members have it is that it's it's too hard to be in full flight of reality of the circumstance. So it's quite easy to have the smokes and mirrors of all I'm not as bad as that person. Or maybe I haven't tried it this way. Or for me, I would do they call it geographical is where I would jump on a plane and I'd go to another country. And I think, Okay, this is what's going to sort me out, I'll go and do an OD hoga, I'll do some meditation, go live in an ashram. And maybe I'll study something, and then what do you know, you take yourself with you, and it still starts popping up again. So I think that when I look back, I think that there were times when I would feel as though I'm convincing myself that it isn't as bad as it is. And then you'd have those reality checks where you're sitting on the edge of your bed and feeling like you don't want to exist anymore. And you think oh, actually, this is really bad. This is really, really bad. And maybe I need some help. And I do believe that people have to get to that breaking point, that massive reality check. And I'm sure you've heard about rock bottoms. And unfortunately for some people, like myself, it takes multiple rock bottoms, whatever it takes to sort of break through the layers of denial, the armoured structure of of trying to keep it together the worrying about they out there and their opinions on what I should or shouldn't be doing. And and it is a real shame that it's such a long journey. So that was 24 and I had a period of I think maybe 18 months or two years where I was off substances. And I was going to 12 step recovery I'd move down to Brighton and I was living a good life but I felt young and I and so I wanted to get on with life and a career and I didn't want to be sitting around church walls in meetings saying my name is Lisa I'm an addict I thought come on. I need to move on and and so then started some relapses. And then it took another horrendous thing to happen to me to then surrender if you like, again, to try and to be totally abstinent and do everything that's suggested. And then I've got about coming up to seven years of, we call it clean. I don't know whether or not I like that word. But yeah, off everything. But I wasn't really investing in my personal development, I was investing in my spiritual growth that mattered to me. But if I'm really honest, it mattered to me more to be getting a career and success and either working or building a business, I was an ideas person, I now realise that now that I got a diagnosis of ADHD. That's why I had ideas all the time that were really magnificent, and amazing, but that's what was happening around that time.

Chris: 16:01

And was that the drive that you've had for many years of education, being inspired, ideas being driven towards career goals? What was driving that was that to be wealthy to be known to have a real purpose? What was pushing you?

Lisa: 16:18

I think if I'm really honest, it was for my dad to be proud of me? If I'm really honest, yeah, money mattered. I liked. It wasn't I like shiny, glittery things, but I like to adventure and I like travel. And I like to have experiences and that required money. But I, I realised this more recently, more than ever was that if I'm really honest, that the desire to, to succeed has more been about I equate that with getting love that, okay, that will make up for the years of being broken and the mess and, and something to be shamed about. And if dad loved me, and my family thought I was enough, then I can feel like I'm enough. So I don't think it was necessarily driven by necessarily even purpose, because my ideas would have purpose, but they would, they would be things that I would want to set up more for a charity I still, you know, would do that stuff on the side. But there was this stronger part of me that thought that until I'm the CEO of a company, which is never gonna happen, then I'm not enough.

Chris: 17:41

So ideas, the drive identity, all of that still a strong motivational force in your life. Yeah, as is the desire to live to experience to be excited. The Highlife. What then followed that? You're in Brighton at this point.

Lisa: 17:58

Yeah. So I was in Brighton I had a little spell of working radio, actually, which I loved. And one day, I picked up a drink. I thought, it's been seven years, I heard somewhere that your cells regenerate after seven years, and I thought maybe I can have a drink. That wasn't my main problem. And I picked up a drink one night casually, and then that it was the catapult into 10 years of a relapse. And that relapse was pretty horrific. Lots of things happen that I never thought would would happen. I ended up in prison. I ended up homeless, not always street homeless, but never having secure housing and living in hostels and, and yeah, it got pretty scary and hospital visits and overdoses. And and I think that for the majority of that time, particularly towards the end I had given up at the beginning, I kept having a few attempts, which is why I value my life so much today. I've gone past the seven year mark again now, which feels great, but I value every day is really, really precious because my journey has been quite horrific and harrowing. And when I see other people that are in the darkness and struggling and bouncing from service to service, and it's even more strained out there in terms of mental health services and addiction services and although they're all doing their best, and there's some incredible workers and charities and and enterprises that are out there. It's tough. It's tough. So I always just say to them, just don't give up on yourself. Just don't give up on yourself. Whatever happens no matter How bad is just keep reaching out for help keep talking about because I think it was in that period of time that something broke me open where I did start sharing my vulnerability, I did start begging for my life and and I remember thinking or sleeping a tree of it means that it gives me a day of freedom.

Chris: 20:25

Presumably during that 10 years being imprisoned being homeless, you know, for someone who has such a drive for the love, you know, affirmation of a family of a parent, you can't get much further away from that, that just must have been such a an unhelpful, driving force in the wrong direction, to just have that way to have, you know, this is not achieving what I want, I need this, so far from that place that I want to be.

Lisa: 20:51

Absolutely. And I think that's the contradiction of addiction is that quite often you're there begging and screaming for love and connection and validation and to be seen and to be heard. And, and yet, the behaviour is sometimes of somebody that doesn't care and rejecting and screaming and loud, and as if they don't want to be seen want to be hidden and isolated. And, and unfortunately, it meant that my dad for his own protection for a lot of that time, could not have a relationship with me. I remember spending my 40th birthday in prison and not getting a birthday card from my dad and that breaking my heart. And I'm very fortunate that I was able to build a relationship with my my dad, all the way through my recovery. And he passed away in September 2020. And I was able to along with my mom helped nurse him be there at the end of his life and have this incredible connection. And it was during then that from his words, he said, I never stopped loving you. But I had to step away from my own protection because it just broke my heart and being somebody that was had been very successful and capable and strong and quite powerful. He couldn't handle powerlessness. He couldn't handle the fact that there was nothing he could do. He knew that money wouldn't help if he did throw money at it. That wouldn't help. Not that he did, he kind of learned that in the early days not to enable. But yeah, I heard how difficult it was for him. And for my mother in very different ways. My mom would come to the front line to try and rescue me from crack houses or be there in hospital. But yeah, it's a very difficult thing for family members.

Claire : 22:55

We've spoken to people in the past about different griefs with aspects to them. And I think it probably is the same with addiction, where there's this level of in some ways, it's preventable, and it could be seen as self imposed. And that makes the grief so much harder if someone dies that way, or if it's something like this. Do you think that's why it's hard for parents in some way? Because I guess a lot of people don't understand it. A lot of people will say, well just have one drink, you'll be fine. Or what how can you not just stop after one drink? People don't get what it's like. So I guess if you don't understand it, and you can't work out why somebody's doing it, and you feel like it could be prevented, but you can't prevent it. I guess it must add a lot of frustration in for people around you on the outside.

Lisa: 23:33

I think so. And in a way it's it's really understandable why society struggles with having compassion and care and understanding for people who are struggling with addiction because unfortunately, some of the way that manifests as well as crime and homeless nurse it's also a bit of behaviours that are not really deemed very sociable and acceptable in society. So but I think that for family members, it is hard to wrap your head around, it's hard for, for me to wrap my head around and I'm the one that's gone through it and done multiple courses and and done quite a lot of recovery journeying. So it doesn't make sense, does it? It doesn't make sense. But when you understand that it's not just physical, that there is a mental and emotional and spiritual part of addiction that it's not just about treating, you can't just take the drugs away and hope hope for the best. That's not been my experience. Okay, maybe there might be some random people out there that they do just put something down and they're tiptop. Happy to do and but I don't really see that.

Chris: 24:52

Presumably with your dad saying that to you on reflection. Maybe you understood that in the time. Presumably you wouldn't have understood that, stepping away for his own safety and emotional well being.

Lisa: 25:05

Yeah, I think even at the time I knew why I think I knew why hurt. That's not to say that it didn't hurt because I just wanted to see him. And I just wanted a hug sometimes. And but because I would still have communication and a relationship with my mom, she would she would try and explain to me that she didn't, she wasn't able to say, oh, it's because he's protecting his heart, but she just say can't cope. Lisa, he just can't cope. And so I thought, well, that's that's the way it is.

Claire : 25:40

I think it's a really difficult area to I'd mentioned your thoughts on how you educate people outside it, to understand it to have more compassion for people going through it. Because I recently listened to the audiobook, Matthew Perry reading his book, 'Friends, lovers, and the big terrible thing', which is a very deep dive into his addictions. And I don't know what to do with it, really, because I'm cautious to recommend it. I couldn't get through it quick enough. I thought it was fascinating. But it was it was as graphic because it was heartbreaking. And I think I was thinking, well, this is a really good educational tool. But in the same way, it's it's terrifying for some people to listen to, because you're like, Oh, my word, this is what some people are going through? How do you help them? Because he would admit the same thing? They will? There's pretty much nothing anyone the outside could do for me. So how, how do you help people to understand it when a lot of what is inside? It is quite, you know, it's scary. And it's terrifying. And you know, the rehab and the addiction and the side effects and all that. It's not easy stuff to face? Is it?

Lisa: 26:35

No, no. And I think in answer to that is to read a book like that, or sit down and talk to somebody who's is willing to share their story or listen to a podcast like this or go to an open 12 step recovery meeting. And I was in a 12 step recovery meeting recently. And there was a doctor in there, who had been a practising doctor for many, many years, and so had faced a lot of people with addiction problems. And he said, Oh my god, I'm absolutely blown away with just sitting here and hearing people sharing their truth, not just sharing their stories, but sharing about how they navigate in life, in their recovery journey. And I think it's it's one of the priceless little gems that we get, if you choose that that's your path in terms of recovery. But I feel I feel really blessed in a way that I get to grow as a person as much as I do. Because, yeah, I think that really, we need to just keep sharing the message, rather than reading the newspapers that are the harrowing stories of, well, you know, they got given a TV in in prison, and they still didn't turn their life around. Or Hello, it's a whole systems change thing. You know, I think that if, if we stopped treating a lot of criminal behaviour as just somebody behaving badly, and they started looking at rehabilitation, and they started looking at addiction more as a health care issue and started treating the mental health side of things root and branch, then we might have a different experience. But I think we're at the start of of that and I think the more people who are brave enough to speak up and and that get stakeholders or in position of power in government and higher up in in organisations and are integrating that in training within organisations then, much like with mental health, it's a lot more comfortable for people to talk about the nuanced and complexity complexities of what it really feels like to be suicide or depressed or have anxiety. I think that we need addiction to come out of the shadows a bit more as well. But there's reasons why there's so much shame around it, and particularly for women that might have children. Yeah, or for men who are in a position of trying to keep it together financially.

Chris: 29:24

What on earth is that experience? Like? Then, you know, this podcast is about finding hope through grief and loss. So it's almost a double whammy. Why on earth is it like when you get into recovery and want to celebrate that, but that then gives way to, you know, a small or tidal wave of grief in thinking well, what have I lost during that 10 years what, you know, I want to celebrate where I am now, but where I am now is where I'm not where I wanted to be. So, what's it like taking that very different sort of punch to the gut of now I have to start recognising. Yes, I'm over that, but now I've got a lot to unpick and to grieve.

Lisa: 30:06

Yeah. So really, really good question. And, and it is one that, like everything else you have to, you have to be real with and you have to, you have to be able to experience the pain that actually we can still be grateful and celebratory. But equally, it's still okay to be in touch with grief, and be in touch with sadness and loss and maybe even anger. or resentments. And so therefore, part of the journey is how do I navigate my emotions and and deal with them in a healthy way? Because certainly, from the generation of that wasn't taught. And thankfully, there's more understanding around that. But there's, there's a lot of emphasis on gratitude. There's a lot of emphasis on gratitude in the recovery world and, but that can, if you're not careful, that can feel fake, if you're not really being honest with yourself. So for me, my experience is that I'm 51 years old, and there's lots of losses and griefs along the way, I don't have children. Now I don't have grandchildren. And that's almost like this new wave of grief that I'm experiencing now is that a lot of my friends of my age, that did have children, either in addiction or out of addiction, all my friends are in recovery. They have the joy of grandchildren coming around. Well, sometimes it's joy, but mostly it's a joy. Yeah. And and Christmases are a big affair and family photos are lots of people in a room with their brothers and sisters or having having children as well. And so yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I wouldn't say regrets. But moments when I look and I think cart, what would life have been like if the sliding doors had meant that I'd stayed on the path at that time, if I hadn't had those 10 years of, of a relapse that probably robbed me of, you know, my 30s and not my 40s, which is when you can generate or start getting some stuff together, acquiring whether or not that's physically on the outside or internally, same with relationships never really settled down or found a healthy relationship, because all of mine have been with equally, equally lost souls. They were the people who I connected with, I guess they understood Yeah, so it sort of makes sense. They understood, I understood them. It's familiarity. And although those types of relationships in addiction can, can actually turn really quite toxic and abusive on both both sides of it, and I don't mean necessarily physically but it's it's a crazy world of there's two addicts in a room because your your your first love, and your first commitment will always be to the drugs not to each other. That's the sad part of addiction that a lot of people can't get their head around. And I can't talk from my own personal experience. But when you hear of mothers that have to prioritise their drugs over their children, I understand that even though I didn't have children, because nothing would have got in my way, either.

Claire : 33:42

You talk about when you had that seven years, and then you had that drink. And that started the next 10 help us explain a little bit about what it's like to be clean, inverted commas, whatever word you use, because you could have the assumption now here you are speaking very openly about it. You've seen what happened in the past. So therefore, you're all sorted. You know, what would, you know, you know, what would trigger another what, you know, where are you now? And how does that relate? It's still literally day by day that you have to take life or do you get past that and you think I'm in a different place now to that seven years.

Lisa: 34:10

I definitely feel in in a different place. And and I don't feel as though it's a ride of white knuckling and just getting through the day whatsoever, there's a hell of a lot of freedom for it. And actually, the majority of the time, I don't think about it, and I don't think about my past and I don't think I don't identify as her anymore. I get reminders. And interestingly enough, just before coming here, I went to the public toilets in Gloucester, and there was a young woman that was changing and washing in the toilet and I could tell that she had probably just had a hit in the toilet and she was frenetic and and sort of trying to get ourselves together and washing and I can remember doing exactly what she was doing looking in her bags and how it is for me now is I get little moments of reminders. Yes, sadness comes, yes, some some some loss and some tender feelings come up. But I always get into a place of of like, Thank God, that is not my life anymore. However, do I respect the power of addiction, I have to, I have to because you guys know that I was in hospital recently in Saudi and so I had to have the experience of having narcotics, opiates, fentanyl, as a pain relief, and oh my god, I knew that that was setting off some wild little things going on inside me that got very, very excited about that. And so I had to be accountable and talk to other people in recovery. So that I wasn't deluding myself that I'm invincible, because I've been there before where I felt invincible. And that's got me back in that 10 year period.

Chris: 36:05

Is it helpful then to continue to work in areas and with people where you bring your baggage in a good way you open up your baggage and share it and say, This is what I've learned. Rather than thinking now I'm gonna go and be a mountaineer and completely changed my life. Because I don't want to face that anymore. Is there a balance?

Claire : 36:25

I was just thinking that How helpful is it to then go back into that world and actually stay close to it? Or is it better to get away?

Lisa: 36:32

Weirdly enough, it's not a guarantee that if you're involved, in fact, there are it's almost can be dangerous that if people are working in the field, that they stop working on their own recovery, and then it all becomes about just kind of getting their hit their dopamine hit from helping others. I think going and being a mountaineer would be my forever role. Because I'm a big one, or you know, it's, it's, it's all dependent. It's, it's like what lights you up, what gives you joy, if that's what gives you joy, great, but don't stop finding things that make you happy, because I see a lot of burnout and a lot of people that go and work really hard on frontline services or in addiction, Recovery Services, or even stuff, like what I'm doing with coaching and more privatised services. But unless it's making you happy, and you're breaking it up with a bit of exploration and adventures and and finding what lights you up, then you're not going to the ultimate aim is that we want a bit of happiness in life. Don't we?

Chris: 37:45

But then clearly, I think you've touched on this a number of times recognising that if there is some pain inside, that moving somewhere else doing something else is not going to cover that in are using a coping mechanism. You have to deal with that pain before you can then be free to be happy and find joy and purpose in other things.

Lisa: 38:04

Oh, yeah, I get what Yeah, absolutely. You're you're totally right. And some people underestimate the power of that. And there are some people that might find that moving abroad and setting up a completely new New Life is good. But unless there's still finding freedom in recovery.

Chris: 38:26

Just a quick aside, because Claire mentioned clean, you mentioned clean, but you're not sure if you like that word. Are there words that are sort of good to help us? If we come into contact with somebody who's in recovery? Are there words to avoid? Do you think generally, or words to use and that are helpful?

Lisa: 38:42

I think that words have their own, they can have a bit of a loaded side to them. And I remember service users being a word that none of us liked when we were service users bought the whole third sector, frontline support, that's what they knew us. And it's the same with clean a lot of people in recovery, like identifying themselves as, like, I'm this amount of clean. I just go in and out of my love for the Word because it makes me associate Oh, so therefore before I was dirty, and the connotations and connections of what that means for me is that it touches on shameful thoughts or memories. And so I like the word free. Like, how long have I been free? That's often a word, but being away from drugs doesn't always equate to freedom in the mind. Yeah, it's a difficult one. It's just about listening and having kindness and compassion and is never it's never the wrong thing to say how do you like to be referred to? I think that's quite a nice way around it because everybody's different and some people are choosing some very different paths to their journey of Yes, setting themselves free from addiction.

Claire : 40:07

How does it work? If I were to say to you, are you an addict? Is that something that is behind you? Or is that something you will always be? What? How does the terminology around that work?

Lisa: 40:16

Well, I know that I class myself when I go to, to meetings? I say that. But weirdly enough, I don't always like to identify as that. And I think it's one of the things which I yeah, I'm I'm certainly going through a my own process around that now. It's the more I understand the power of words, and the power of the words that we speak out into the world, the universe or whatever, and how loaded that can be. And it's interesting question that you should ask me, because that's been my norm in recovery is that my experience is predominantly 12 step recovery. Yes, I've gone and tried lots of other things. But I've ended up in, in meetings. And in meetings, we say, Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'm an addict or an I'm an alcoholic or whatever, fill in the blanks. And sometimes I don't like that. But it's also a part of me that connects with my fellows and my tribe. And so it is a really interesting question because I go in and out of love with having that because it does feel loaded, because I'd like to not be that but equally as I've described with you, I've had the experience of cutting myself off from the reality of addiction and trying to delude myself that this innocent drinks gonna be okay, and then how long it took me to get back to where I am now. So it is a tricky one. It's actually a really good question, because I think everybody's experience around that is different.

Claire : 42:04

So are you teetotal. Now, is it something that you need to do?

Lisa: 42:07

Yeah, yeah, I don't touch alcohol don't touch substances. And if I have to have a painkiller that's stronger than paracetamol, I do feel as though I need to make sure that I'm being accountable about it because it's it does something to me that's very different to what it would do to you. So my mum said to me when I was in hospital, all I tried that it was horrible. It was absolutely horrific. And I can't remember what we were talking about our Tramadol that's it. They tried me on Tramadol. And I said, Well, that's the difference. It sets off a party inside of me. So I think there is something there is some scientific evidence to show that our synapses or our wiring of our brains are slightly different from other people.

Claire : 42:54

That's interesting there's a physical response like that.

Chris: 42:56

Coming back to grief and loss you mentioned childlessness grandchild-lessness if that's a thing?

Claire : 43:02

We don't use that, we should use that!

Chris: 43:05

As well as relationships. Have they been the the most painful losses to recognise and have you identified ways for yourself that will continue in the future to be healthy ways of dealing with these things like Christmases? Seeing friends, you know, I can't see you today because I'm out with my grandchildren, children, whatever it may be, you know, are there ways things that you've put in place and got in place into the future, which will help you deal with those sadnesses when they arise?

Lisa: 43:35

Yeah, I think that the way I don't want to use the word cope, but the way I, I deal with it now is to as much as possible without denying the, the uncomfortability and the pain because when it comes up, it's good to honour that. I think that for me, I often say to myself, what can I do that other people who have children or grandchildren don't get to do and in a way, it's one of the reasons why I set up the business that I've set up because I can drop everything and be there for a client within a couple of days and go and stay near them or in a in a house or help with a detox and get a team in place that other people wouldn't know ordinarily get to do. Same with travel. Last Christmas, I thought well, I want to go and learn to surf. And I don't want to do Christmas this year and I made sure mum was alright and so are you okay with me not been around over Christmas, not that she's a big traditional Christmas person. And so I try and do the things that other people don't get to do. And I often think that my creative ideas are something that I need to give birth to or bring to life or or harness and yeah, so I think that I've had to make sense of it in a very different way. And that's not to say that the sadness is isn't still there. It just doesn't stay with me and keep me in a dark room feeling sorry for myself, I touch on it and go, Oh, yeah, there's a whole world that I will never ever get to experience, I'll never know what pregnancy feels like, I'll never know what childbirth feels like when people are talking about Ah, yeah, I need to, I'm trying to get them down to one nap. It's like a language that I don't understand I've never needed to, and that can touch on, if I'm not careful, not only sadness and loss, but a feeling of less than a woman taking up space in society. And that's when it's dangerous. When I feel as though I'm not really fully a whole feminine. There's a lot of people in my circles that talk about the divine feminine in the womb, and, you know, all of this, which is I saw great, but I'm still a woman, still a woman just because I haven't had that as an experience. So I think it's important to have these platforms and have other people that have also experienced what I've experienced whether or not with addiction, or out of addiction that, for one reason or another, have losses for other personal reasons. And that's where community and unity and connection is where is really important and talking about it as well and not feeling the shame of No, you're less than woman because you haven't been able to have children.

Claire : 46:35

Dangerous, because there is that sort of assumption that if you don't have children, then you have a career, you have something else, and you're going to be one of these fierce kind of career type women and I've had to struggle with with that not having the children but also not having the career. And then I was like, Well, where does that leave me? Like you said, You've got to really fight. So there are other types of being women and doing things differently. But I was actually gonna say was, I'm, I'm so glad we're having this conversation, because I think we talk a lot about grief and loss. And I don't think addiction is even in the top 10 of things that people think about when you talk about those subjects, which is such a shame, because there is so much loss attached to addiction, just you know, you have to mention a few but also life and death. If you're in that world, you will have experienced losing people losing friends, because of the very dangerous nature of what it is. Has that been something that you've seen and had to navigate as well?

Lisa: 47:22

Yeah, absolutely. I remember in the early days, somebody saying, if you're gonna stick around recovery, get yourself a black suit. And I was like, What are you? What are you talking about, and it's unfortunate aspect of recovery is that, yes, it's beautiful to see people come to come to life and build their families back and careers and, and do all the amazing things. And then a lot of people don't make it. So there are a lot of funerals. And there's a lot of losses, and some of them have been through overdoses or relapses. And unfortunately, I've had a few through suicide because their recovery has been too painful for them to really make sense of the level of trauma that they've gone through because nobody goes through addiction particularly not addiction to the degrees that I experienced, which involve diver using and STS and you don't go through that without huge levels of trauma. So there have been a lot of deaths there's been a lot of people who I think are from time to time, and I don't know whether or not there alive or dead. It's very, very sad.

Chris: 48:39

Bit of a weird question maybe tears and crying when you're stuck in addiction and addictive cycles where you have things that you use to cope. Do you cry less because you go to other stuff? Or do you cry as much as anybody else? You know, what sort of rolled to tears playing crying in the grief in the morning of all that stuff?

Lisa: 49:01

Interesting. So I'm probably the worst person to ask that because I'm not a crier. I think that because of my boarding school stuff, part of my coping mechanism of the way I am my relationship with crying is I don't find crying very easy, but the memories that I have of crying are of when I'm locked in a prison cell or I don't know whether I'm going to go out or I don't I don't know if I can cope with this level of withdrawal that I'm going through. And And yes, I did cry. When I found my dear friend Ricardo's body when he had taken his life and and I cried a lot then and it felt like a cry from the pit of my stomach like I was crying. Every other tear of every other person I'd lost and it all came out. And it's it's a really sad reality of of addiction and recovery is that it's going to be part and parcel of that journey. I think the joys and seeing people get their lives back together outweighs that. But it is a really good question. And it is something that is worth addressing, because we do lose a lot of people and we have spells of losing a lot of people.

Claire : 50:34

Is there ever a sense of and this is not an easy question. And it still sounds a bit callous in some ways, but because some people get so trapped in it and so lost and so destroyed by it. Is there ever a sense when someone dies, there's almost like, they're free sort of things. I got that sense of Matthew Perry's book a bit. I heard him reading it after he died. Because I'm such a big friends fan growing up, you know, sort of heartbroken listening to this book that someone is suffering so badly. But then there's this sense of when you hear his died, it's like, gosh, you know, he's free of that He's battled with it for so long.

Lisa: 51:07

Yeah, I absolutely believe that. Yeah. And I don't think it is a callous question. I think that yes, it's a shame they, they didn't stick around. And he's one of many sad stories. But I think that it's a sad truth that for for some people, at least, they're not in pain. And I know I mentioned Ricardo just now. But Ricardo was a classic example. And I know that I remember seeing his therapist at the funeral. And he said, You have no idea the level of pain and agony he had with just being on this earth. And not everybody can totally understand that. With all the the multitudes of individuals that you've been friends with, or you've just been alongside whether in prison, whether we're in recovery, whether we're even working now and helping, can you identify like, a common theme for everybody where this starts, it's because of a lack of this, or that everyone's journey is different. But If only everyone had this, here's a magic button, and we'll push it now. And that will solve, you know, addiction problems for generations to come. I think that, there'd be a few things. But I think one of the main ones is just being seen, just being seen just being allowed to be them just being allowed to take up space just being heard, just being acknowledged. And there's lots of themes, it often is rejection, or abandonment, or not being given the tools of how to deal with their emotions, but it's often just lack of love and lack of, yeah, taking up space. And that's, that's hard, isn't it? And in a way, that's what's beautiful, that I see now is that it's in the curriculum and an education and families are teaching their children to find their voice and and what was I watching the other day, I was watching the Joe wicks documentary. And he was talking about his father, who was a heroin addict, and his mother who had OCD and eating disorder. And, and he said, he just wanted to be seen. And I know he didn't end up as a, an addict. But I think that you can tell that the way people are with their young kids now as they give them space to be who they are. And he went to a charity in London, where they were working with the mothers and fathers and family members and the children talking very openly, it was more around mental health. But it was so healthy. And I thought, wow, hopefully that's gonna have a ripple effect in the long term with society is that it's, there's no shame to talk about depression, or the mums bipolar or this addiction, or we'll see.

Claire : 54:07

One of the questions we ask all our guests is around the question why? Because the why around grief and loss is often no one knows the answer quite often, or people have different interpretations of it. So I'd be interested to see what what your relationship has been like with the question why has Why am I going through this? Or why me or any why questions dominated that journey? Have they kind of thrown their head up?

Lisa: 54:30

Yeah, massively. And I did for a long time. Try and think why. Why have I ended up as an addict? You know, I've come from a privileged background and been given this education that should have armed me as a really accomplished woman in the world. And you know, why me and why? Why didn't I get that the red flags were there in the early days and why didn't I hear that person who spoke to me from their heart when I was 22. And she was trying to reach in and she was trying to explain to me and she was trying to give me a gym. Why didn't that drop until I was 34? You know, a lot of those questions. And some of them, you know, that question, why can be useful in certain, certain parts of exploring and understanding ourselves more, but to stay in the why I don't think is helpful. I think it's better for me to go. Okay, what can I do about it? How can I use this for something greater? And I think that's what I've done with the why is rather than why me, I just got okay. Or what can I do? How can I serve? Who can I become?

Claire : 55:50

And what you're doing now? Probably, in my top five of most horrific jobs, you could make me go and do or sit and watch, are you getting a lot of purpose. Do you get hope from that? Yeah. What is that giving you now you've set that up.

Lisa: 56:03

It's giving me it's giving me some joy. Yes, it's hard and can feel a bit harrowing. What I love is the watching the light come back into somebody's eyes, day by day, and being there for their first laughter when they haven't laughed for 20 years. And suddenly you're laughing with them. And I love hearing from them six months later, when they say about something that they've managed to accomplish. And it's that rather than the serve the gritty part of the helping somebody with the detox, it's more helping them with their awakening of their spirit that brings the joy into my life. And I certainly don't think I could do it. One after the other, I mix it up. And I am very much into some of my physical and the yoga and the Cymatics and the meditation and being able to bring that into more accessible to people who can't afford it and wanting to set up charities and CICS and get involved with other things which are going on. So I definitely mix up what I do as a business to other things that helped me because I think I might get burnout. If I did it all the time.

Chris: 57:25

You've had spells that you've referred to of just utter hopelessness, I think just tapping into Claire's question there as well. Now feelings of hope, fullness, what do you think of when you think of hope?

Lisa: 57:37

Straightaway, that analogy of and I've heard this is 'Hold On Pain Ends'. Hope. which is not what I think when I think of hope. But when I think of hope, I think of expansion and possibilities and sort of openness and light that comes into spaces that have been really, really dark before. That's how I'm quite a visual person. So that's what I think of with hope and it's so underrated honestly, people have no ideas when you have had zero hope have the tiniest little gesture can be the thing that gives that person a bit of hope I'll describe this I think one of the turning points for me of getting clean or finding a free my my life this time round at the end of that 10 year period was that I ended up in hospital in Bath and my parents had had to go to New Zealand go and see my brother and I thought I was gonna lose my leg. And I went on social media. I was in in my crazy addiction. And I went on social media. And relating this to hope was that the messages that I got from people who were in my recovery from the first time round, and somebody sending me some pyjamas in hospital. And somebody else sending me a tracksuit. And those tiny little gestures don't cost a lot don't don't even require a lot. Some of them were really just like a paragraph of a message private message to me. And that is what lit up the flame in my heart that goes I don't care what it's gonna take. I'm going to fight for my life. And that's what hope can do. Hope can be the generator for motivating somebody to turn their life around.

Claire : 59:39

So what would you say to people who are out there who haven't experienced much about addiction? And their only picture of it is a scary person in a public bathroom, washing at the sink and they don't know what to do with that. What would you want them to know about people in addiction because we see you now it's even hard to imagine the person you're describing because you just seems so far from that person. But if I'd have met you in prison, it would have been a very different person that I might have. Maybe I was a bit fearful of you and me, I didn't know what to do with that. But then this is beautiful person inside. So how can we on the outside of it just be better? Or what can we know, to maybe take the fear away from it a little bit?

Lisa: 1:00:18

What I would say is that every single one of those people was once a child, that was probably running around a field, potentially, if they were lucky to have friends or, and somewhere along the way, they got lost or weren't shown that love or weren't given the opportunities, something has broken in their journey. Because nobody at five years old goes, I know what I want to do, I want to end up in prison, I want to end up on the streets, I want to end up an intravenous drug user. And I want to cause as much pain and heartache as I possibly can. And I'm going to be really angry at the whole world. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. And in a way, when you see somebody shouting or screaming or acting in a very anti, anti societal way, I don't know what the right word is, but I'm not very gracious and, and welcoming is to go, they're in pain, they are acting in that way. Because they are in pain, and they can't scream or shout or cry out the words, please help me because their defences are so strong, and so active, that that is the only way to protect themselves from coping with society. And that's it. And I would say educate yourself read some of the books, I was very surprised when my aunt and uncle died. And we were clearing out the books. And I said to the cousins, it's really strange. It's got loads of books on addiction here. And and and they said Are they were interested because you were struggling in addiction. And I thought, wow, I really respected that. And and it really touched my heart because I thought while they wanted to understand and even though they might never have fully understood they tried, think kindness, compassion, always that is, should be everybody's code relation. How can you soften the lens on the judgement that you are? Seeing that particular snapshot of that individual or society through those lenses? How can you? How can you see that through a slightly more compassionate lens?

Chris: 1:02:35

Addiction is so much more than much of the stuff we've covered like drinking drugs, you know, the stuff that has the more severe side effects, let's say, addiction is far more common with who we work with who we socialise with, in smaller ways, whether it's use of a mobile phone, even soft drinks or caffeinated soft drinks, coffee, sex things we do come for eating and all of it, you know, the different responses to what you were talking about earlier, rejection, abandonment, not feeling seeing. So where's your head and heart with? Yes, you may work with those with more severe addictions. But actually, it's something that we all should be more aware of?

Lisa: 1:03:16

I think so I really, really think so. And I think as things speed up, and the more of that tech is available to us look, look at what tiktoks done to social media, it's just like up to the dopamine hit degree that you can get straightaway, hasn't it? And and you're right, addiction compulsion obsession is rife. And probably we all have it to slight varying degrees, even if it's the sugar or the mobile phone or whatever. But I think one of the things that I'm always a big advocate for is finding space finding avenues of being able to express yourself creatively in a different way. Whether or not that's artistically whether or not that's in nature. Yeah, I think find avenues and and understand what's going on. I think that if people had a bit more awareness around it and support, then maybe there might be other ways and there is now there's a lot more scientists and biohackers and lots of platforms on on social media and podcasts that are giving tips on on how to be able to navigate that but we're moving at a pace that's so fast with AI that I don't know what that's going to look like in the future. So I think the more people can stay close to nature and quietness and taking moments of pause and connecting with human beings as much as possible and finding play as you know, moving your body listening to music, all that stuff. It's some of the most basic medicine that we can get sunlight movement, laughter.

Chris: 1:05:06

Final question is, so we end every episode in this way, something that you've cultivated, you've grown something healthy, that you know can pass on to other people. But what's your Herman?

Lisa: 1:05:19

Mine sounds really cheesy, but it is definitely the journey from the head to the heart, the...

Chris: 1:05:26

Now, that was gonna be a great answer to our Herman, question from Lisa. But then after the interview her true Herman, something even more powerful dawned on her. So she recorded that sent it to us. And we were very happy to use that one instead.

Lisa: 1:05:40

As I was driving home after our interview, I suddenly realised what my real Herman is. And it's got to be gratitude, it's got to be gratitude. Gratitude has probably been my little saving grace through some of my darkest times. And I can remember being introduced to it years ago when I first ever listened to Wayne Dyer. And it is something which I practice today, and has probably been, at times when things feel so challenging and dark and chaotic. The tiniest little sliver of gratitude for having a bed in a hostel, or having people in my life that care about me have probably carried me through those moments. And it is something I practice today, I may not be as religious with the writing the gratitude lists at the end of every day, but it's something that I pass on to other people, whether or not their clients, whether or not it's in a talk that I'm giving, or people that come into my life that I'm very blessed that I get to help. As I remember, some very wise woman telling me, gratitude is the breakfast of champions.

Claire : 1:07:14

Gratitude, in fact, that's the second loss episode in a row that has shared gratitude as their Herman. The power of being thankful is something we so often underestimate. But as Lisa shares gratitude, and hope, if we choose them can literally save lives.

Chris: 1:07:28

Thank you so much for speaking to us, Lisa, we are really grateful for your vulnerability, your honesty and bravery in what you've shared, and also for the work that you're doing to draw alongside others.

Claire : 1:07:38

For more about Lisa, her website and her social media, check out the links in the show notes. And for more about us pop over to www.thesilentwhy.com. And if you're new to us, and wondering how you'd answer What's your Herman? or even what on earth that means, then we have all the information you need over at www.theHermanCompany.com. And again, there's a link in the show notes.

Chris: 1:07:56

We've used this question as a way of finding out what our guests want to share with others, what they've learned through their grief, and now on to pass down to help others going through something similar, the full history from Amish cake to Silent Why question is on the website.

Claire : 1:08:09

And at the beginning of this year, I also launched real Herman's that you can buy and give to someone who's going through a hard time. Just take a moment to stop and think about one person right now that you know that struggling, who you don't really know how to help. Or maybe he just needs a smile but life just throwing them constant frowns or tears. You might want to give them something to help but you don't know what maybe you've sent flowers but you know they're dead by now and you don't know what else to do. Well, that's why I make Herman's Herman's a crocheted companions made by me in England and posted to you or the person you want to gift it to with a little message that says that although you don't have the right words, you know that Herman will be able to keep them company and understand what they're going through. Herman's not only last a lifetime, but they also show you care and bring comfort in a very unique way. And I've had some amazing feedback from people who have drawn comfort from home and as one lady said, who was sent one when going through chemo and radiotherapy, "Who knew a blue crochet creature could become such a comfort? Thanks, Herman". And I can send Herman anywhere in the world to the person that you want to bless. And I can also add a personalised note from you written by me to add into his box. So to buy your home and visit www.thehermancompany.com

Chris: 1:09:24

Or to see him in his packaging and any adventure he goes on, follow his newly launched Instagram account at www.instagram.com/thehermancompany. Now then we're finishing this episode with a quote from Wayne Dyer, who's a famous author and speaker on self development, and who Lisa mentioned in her Herman.

Claire : 1:09:44

"Be in a state of gratitude for everything that shows up in your life. Be thankful for the storms as well as the smooth sailing, what is the lesson or gift in what you're experiencing right now? Find your joy not in what's missing in your life, but in how you can serve."