Loss 51/101: Loss of a dad ('that I don't know if I loved'): Thea Rickard

#103. When a close family member dies, like a parent, it's easy to assume there was love there, but what if you're not sure if you loved that person, or even if they loved you, what does grief look like then?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss.

Loss #51 of 101: Loss of a dad ('that I don't know if I loved')

And yes, this means that as we've reached Loss 51 - we're officially over halfway through our 101 loss list! Exciting! Check out all previous episodes online at www.thesilentwhy.com/101losses or see our last episode where we reflected on the previous ten stories of loss and grief. But there are also many more to go, so back to today's guest...

In this episode you'll meet Thea Rickard, from Bristol in England. Thea's in her twenties and lost her dad, Jonathan Rickard, when he was in his sixties in 2018. About a year ago she produced a short audio documentary called Our Dad (link below) which Chris listened to and then shared with me, because something she said caught his attention: 'Grieving for somebody, or the idea of somebody, who you’re not sure if you loved, is the hardest thing I’ve ever encountered.' Keen to explore what it's like to grieve someone you don't know if you loved, especially a parent, we invited her to talk about it with us on the podcast. 

As Thea has reflected on her dad’s life, his relationship with alcohol, his dream to be an actor, the terrifying and the tender moments she's seen in him, she's had to explore what it's like to grieve for a man she wasn't sure if she loved, or even if he loved her. Like she said in her documentary: ‘It would be easier if he was “the villain” of the piece, but he’s not the antagonist in a story, he’s a human being.’ 

There is so much wisdom and empathy in this chat, well beyond Thea's years, so we know you’re going to appreciate this very honest conversation.

To listen to Thea's 15 minute audio project, 'Our Dad', where she talks about her father with her siblings, visit: https://soundcloud.com/thearickard/ourdad

Transcript

Thea Rickard: 0:02

I'm Thea and I lost my dad, who I'm still not sure if I really loved.

Claire : 0:08

Hello, and welcome to The Silent Why podcast. We're on a mission to explore 101 different types of loss to see if hope can exist in every kind. I'm one of your hosts Claire Sandys, and I happen to be married to my co host to the very wonderful...

Chris: 0:22

Chris Sandys! Because this is last number 51. By the end of this episode, we're going to officially be halfway through our journey to 101. Check out all previous episodes online at www.thesilentwhy.com/101losses, or see our last episode where we reflected on the previous 10 stories of loss and grief.

Claire : 0:42

Yes, we've covered all kinds of loss so far, and there's so many more to come. So stay tuned to see if we make it to 101. And what on earth are we going to pick for our final loss?!

Chris: 0:52

Loss of a podcast series maybe?! Anyway, we're a long way off that. Today we're chatting to Thea Rickard from Bristol, near us, who's actually a former colleague of mine. When we were working together, I heard a short audio documentary that she produced at university about the life and death of her dad, as you said something in that recording that really made me think, and it's brilliant to have her on The Silent Why podcast to explore it further.

Thea Rickard: 1:15

In some ways, it was an incredibly happy childhood. There are some memories that I have of growing up with my siblings, and just not having any shoes on for what felt like weeks on end in the summer holidays. But there was also a bit of a dark underbelly that was always there, which was my dad, really.

Claire : 1:35

Thea had a concept in her project that pricked Arias up. She said this about her dad,'his death wasn't a shock, but it winded me in a way I didn't expect grieving for somebody, or the idea of somebody who you're not sure if you'd loved is the hardest thing I've ever encountered. It felt like everything was finally over and I was safe. But the person I was most like in the world was also gone'.

Chris: 1:58

We often talk about bereavement with people who loved and cherished the person that was lost. But how do you grieve someone that is connected to you as a parent, when you're not sure if you loved them, or if they loved you.

Thea Rickard: 2:09

I just remember really not knowing how to react or how to feel. I felt upset and I did cry. But it just felt so surreal. It didn't really feel like it was actually happening.

Claire : 2:21

Thea shares what it's been like to reflect on her dad's life, grief for a man that she's had to question if she loves and what's helped her and shaped her along the way. She has so much wisdom and empathy well beyond her years. And we know that you're really going to appreciate this very honest conversation.

Thea Rickard: 2:36

I think just allowing things to be murky for a while would be my advice. And I know that listening to that will be frustrating. But to know that things don't have to be processed right away. And to know that you can just sit with things and feel the pain of them is a really important thing to know.

Chris: 2:58

So has hope existed in tears grief, let's find out we start the conversation by asking her to introduce herself.

Thea Rickard: 3:07

My name is Thea, I'm a journalist on a daily basis, I would set my alarm for seven o'clock and then eventually roll out of bed is about 10, go to work to try and you know do my best at work come home. I love going on walks I love hanging out with my friends. I think I'm generally quite a quite a normal person. I'm quite weird, but you know, aren't we'll bought myself a pair of roller skates the other day to sort of extend that weirdness and you know, try and keep some some sense of childlike energy in my life as I'm in my 20s. Yeah, that I'd say that sums me up pretty well.

Chris: 3:52

Well, you live in Bristol and Bristol is very, very hilly, in part so rollerskates, you and Bristol could be a terrible combination.

Thea Rickard: 4:00

Yes, I will admit I've been waiting for someone to come with me so that I can sort of use their back as a break in case I can't put my brakes on going downhill.

Chris: 4:15

Right. Okay, so full acknowledgement. We used to work together, you left you left me. You abandoned me and my workplace. Several months ago now. It was in the weeks before you left that you told me about something that you'd recorded at university. Now this was a 15 minute documentary part of your journalism training, which was just like the most incredible insight into the upbringing that has sort of formed who you are. Now, we can put a link to that in the blurb but could you just sort of give us a bit of a summary as to what growing up was like for you childhood family life?

Thea Rickard: 4:49

Of course. I think my upbringing was very layered. In some ways. It was an incredibly happy childhood. There are some memories that I have of growing up with my siblings, then not having any shoes on for what felt like weeks on end in the summer holidays, you know, I wouldn't change that for the world. But there was also a bit of a dark underbelly that was always there, which was my dad, really, he was a really Laird, man, he was very lovely at times. He was very funny. But he could also be very scary to a little girl, he could be very aggressive. And I think I remember, perhaps the main memory that I have is that feeling of confusion you have when a parents that you expect to keep you safe and to love you, perhaps doesn't act in that way. So I think it was it was layers, definitely. But it wasn't unhappy.

Claire : 5:53

Tell us a bit more about your dad as a person. What did he do? What did he enjoy?

Thea Rickard: 5:57

So he was a actor. So he that was his dream to be an actor, unfortunately, I think most people would say he wasn't particularly good at it, which might not be a very kind thing. But you know, I've seen a couple of clips. And you know, it was it was good enough. He was on an episode of casualty. But but you know, he was never as good as he wanted to be. And so I think he lived with that sense. And he knew that because of that he darted between doing lots of different things. He had lots of hobbies, and he never really stuck at any of them for a particularly long time. He owned a kitchen where shop for a bit, got really into like, Tupperware and had like this obsession with Tupperware which hilariously the, the vicar at his funeral had found out about and sort of latched on to and did his whole eulogy about about how he loved Tupperware. And it was really bizarre for all his family to listen to it, it was almost comical, it felt like a kind of fleabag moment of hearing your thoughts summed up in a kind of yes story about Tupperware. But yeah, he did lots of different things. He never had one set career path. He always had some sort of, you know, scheme. Going along, he had loads of friends as well. He was an incredibly popular man. Growing up, he did loads of rugby. Some of his best friends did rugby with him. I imagine him as the sort of boy growing up that you know, anyone who was a bit weird or different with you, like terrified of because they were so cool. And so in with the rugby gang. That sense of him being really sociable, really carried on throughout his life, the term life and soul of the party. I've never heard more described about someone than my dad. Yeah, he loves to party. But yeah, unfortunately, perhaps a little too much as well. He likes doing lots of different things. But at the same time, he had this underlying sense, I think anyway, and it's hard to say because this, this might just not be true. But my reading of it anyway, is that he had this underlying feeling of failure to do with acting, I think, perhaps he may not have even wanted to act. I think perhaps he wanted to be famous, because I think he had a sense that maybe he wasn't good enough. Without that validation. And I say that because of what he was like in social situations and how he came across as a extrovert. And yet behind closed doors, he was anything but happy. And so I think he was perhaps chasing something throughout his life that he could couldn't quite get his hands on. And I think that was ultimately what led to him becoming an alcoholic.

Claire : 8:54

You mentioned that he was sort of scary to you when you were young. So what side of him? Where did that come from?

Thea Rickard: 8:59

That was always when he was drunk. That was never aside that came out when he was sober, which I always struggled with. Because there's a sense that if somebody acts one way when they're sober, and one way when they're drunk, you think, Well, you know, the drunk side wasn't their real personality. That's not really them. But the more it happens, you know, the more repetitive that behaviour gets, the more difficult it is to, to remember that there's so I think it was definitely that side of him that made me made me fearful. And I was fearful of the feelings that I was having that, you know, I suddenly didn't recognise my own dads even though it was, you know, in my home, where I meant to feel safe. When I was where I was growing up. Suddenly a completely different person would come home after my dad had been to the pub with his friends. And I think that's where that sense of fear also came from.

Claire : 9:58

It's interesting how you talk about him with a lot of grace and love and understanding. Because most people your age, very young, I would say, would still be, I don't know, maybe processing some of the anger or the frustrations or a lot of the negative emotions, but you sound like you've really delved into why he was behaving like he was not just kind of reacting to his behaviour. So where has that come from? What prompted that take on it?

Thea Rickard: 10:24

It's difficult to know whether it's an understanding, you know, that even though he was my dad, he was a complex human being who was feeling a lot of pain, that that, for the most part doesn't reflect on me, or whether it's that I've not understood any of it. And I've completely sort of disassociated myself from from him. And from, I think maybe it's easier to explain and to describe someone, if you think of them as another person's narrative instead of your own. And so making this documentary was interesting, because I then had to really embody the narrative and realise that that was actually mine, and my dad's. So I think perhaps it's a mix of both of me kind of learning to understand that just because someone acts in a certain way, it's not a reflection on not necessarily anyway, reflection on anybody else other than themselves. But there's also a degree of emotional distance that that I think comes from grief and the complexity that grief can bring as well.

Chris: 11:37

You're in your mid 20s. Now, how much of your childhood was taken up with trying to understand or live with your dad live around your dad caring for your dad? What sort of span of time did that feature?

Thea Rickard: 11:49

Yeah. So my parents separated when I was nine. So I lived with my dad until I was nine. But actually, I would say things were worse when I didn't live with my dad, at least in my memory. Anyway, obviously, I think memory and you know, what actually happened are two hugely different things, particularly when you're a child. But yeah, I think when my parents split up my dad's mental health, which because it was in the 2000s, even talking about his mental health wasn't really approached then. But I see it now as his mental health really went downhill, he didn't really have a clear goal, he didn't really have anything he was doing that he enjoyed. Perhaps he drifted from some of his friends as well, because it sort of coincided with his drinking getting more, more apparent and more, you know, more of a problem. And I think some of his friends realised that. And so I went to live with my mum and soda, my brother, who actually is my dad's son, that isn't my mum, son, but he chose to live with me and my mum, because yeah, it became quite apparent that dad couldn't look after us at all. I went to see him every Sunday, my mum would take me we'd go to church, and then we'd go, my mum would drop me off after to see him, which was just this, like, massive confusing, even that in itself is two different activities was so confusing as a child. Not that, you know, I don't to blame my mom for that, because that's just, you know, he lived near where the church was, but you know, those two experiences back to back, were just incredibly odd. And then yeah, that that's probably the most traumatic bit of it for me was was having to kind of continue to see him as he was deteriorating through alcoholism, really, and see his kind of sense of hygiene deteriorates. You know, he really smelled when I saw him, which was really confusing. And then yeah, that continued, probably, I think, until I was about 11, when he was taken to a care home because he couldn't look after himself, and it had got worse and worse. And then I'd have to go and see him at this care home, where everybody else in the care home was also going through the same thing as my dad, but I wasn't related to them. So, you know, my early years at secondary school was completely taken up by that, you know, going to and fro, seeing my dad in this, you know, really pitiful state, but also sort of dealing with the trauma of seeing these other people as well, that were also in these like terrible states, and sometimes were quite horrible to be around and would come off really aggressively. And that wasn't their fault. At the time. It just, you know, I was a child. So that's how I would perceive things. So that was probably the worst time and I think that was why I felt a bit of a sense of relief when I went to university because I was Like, okay, in well, before then I sort of toned down seeing him, because it was just too much. And it was too traumatic.

Claire : 15:09

Were there other adults around at all that were taking some of the responsibility for helping look after him? Or did you feel like you had a lot of that responsibility?

Thea Rickard: 15:16

Well, there definitely were adults, when he was living, he was living on his own. There were people looking out for him. But I did feel a massive sense of responsibility. I don't think anybody put that on me. But I just felt like, you know, none of my other siblings really wanted much to do with him. And neither did his for a lot of his friends at that point. And that was because he could be really, really nasty. But I think because I was the youngest because I was a girl, he would definitely be nicer to me than he would, you know, some of the things my other siblings have told me, that he said to them, are just horrific and really unkind. And I didn't experience that. So I think I did have a feeling of care towards him. And I definitely did love him when I was a child, or at least I loved the idea of who I wanted him to be. And so I did feel a responsibility because of that,

Claire : 16:12

That must have been really hard hearing things about him that you weren't witnessing, to sort of work out who he was as a as a person.

Thea Rickard: 16:19

Yeah, it was really difficult. But I almost found it harder, because I did witness those different sides of him. You know, there were times that I'd see him be, you know, pretty abusive to people. And I did see that from quite a young age. And yet, I also saw how kind he could be not just to me, but to my mom and to other people as well. And, and so that was confusing. Because I think, you know, as a child, if if you saw one thing that we're told the other, you'd probably just ignore the thing you were told he'd think that wasn't true. But seeing both of them, I think was, was really confusing.

Chris: 16:58

So that I mean, that takes us from not even being a teenager yet to then fast forwarding going to university and suddenly having that that bit of space and responsibility, where you know, it's time for you to seek your own path, that narrative that you mentioned developing. But then it was at university that you found out that he had died. So what was that, like when that conclusion came?

Thea Rickard: 17:20

I think it was really interesting, because I just started at university. So it was a fresh start, I didn't even see it necessarily through that lens, I actually found it really hard being at university when it happened, because I didn't know anyone and enough that I felt like I could tell this thing of him dying felt like such a massive burden that I didn't feel like I could go and tell anybody, because I didn't know them well enough. And I didn't want to put that on to them. And so I just felt really alone for at least a couple of months at university because I had this big thing going on that nobody else you know, even the people that were closest to me at uni, nobody knew about. And that was a really strange feeling. And when I did eventually tell them, they will they were you know, pretty gobsmacked that I'd managed to keep that a secret from them. But I actually found out when I was on reading week. So when I was at home, I was round at my friend's house, and we were getting ready to go on a night out. And my brother rang and I went to the bathroom. And he told me, and I just remember, really not knowing how to react or how to feel. I felt upset, and I did cry. But it just felt so surreal. It didn't really feel like it was actually happening. Because it was something that I'd been expecting for so long. But I also at the same time, probably never thought it would actually happen. And so I guess an everyone responds in completely different ways to that sort of news, but I felt a bit guilty afterwards, because I just carried on with my night. They told me, my brother told me and then I I went on this night out and went to this club, and was just like, oh my god, this has happened the whole time. But I guess was just trying to keep on as normal and pretend it hadn't. And I felt a bit guilty for that afterwards. Because I was like, oh, I should have gone home I should have, you know, done this and that and responded to the news in a in a normal way. But I guess I've come to realise that there's no normal way to respond to that. That kind of news.

Claire : 19:33

You said you were sort of expecting it at some point. Is that something you thought about much before he died? Do you ever think what if and how would I feel?

Thea Rickard: 19:41

I don't think I thought that much into it in terms of how I would feel. I definitely considered the idea of him dying just because of you know, his lifestyle and what he looked like. And you know he he started smoking when he was four 13 and died still smoking when he was 65. So, you know, it was always going to be on the cards for him to you know, alcoholism aside, you know, he was he wasn't healthy. So I think I had that understanding. But I never thought of it beyond that, because it was something that I guess I couldn't really conceive or want to think about too much before. before it happened.

Claire : 20:28

When you sort of you look back at him now, you know, in your life as a as a person, as a father as a character? How do you feel about that? Do you see him in a good light? Do you see him in a sort of a damaging light in some way? How do you see him as a person in your life?

Thea Rickard: 20:43

That's a really difficult question to answer, because I don't know if I see him in any way, for a long time, I saw him in a really damaging light. But actually, that made me see myself in a really damaging light, because I've got loads of his personality traits, because he's my dad. And so to see him in a totally damaging light was actually just becoming damaging to me. And it was really affecting my self esteem in the way that I saw myself. And, you know, I've spoken to my siblings about this, and we've all been like, Oh, my God, we're gonna end up like our dad, because of seeing him in such a negative light. So it's definitely been helpful to look at the really positive sides of his life as well. And to see those aspects in myself, as well has felt really refreshing. doesn't feel like it sums it up enough, but I guess it is refreshing. But I don't know how I see him. I guess, because I didn't ever see him as a whole person. He was a person with lots of, he was kind of a chopped up person. In a way, there were lots of different aspects to him, that I could see all at once and can never quite fit together, that even now he's died, I, I still see it that way. I don't see him as, as a good person or a bad person. And I think that it was really confusing growing up, but I actually really liked that. Now,

Claire : 22:06

There's like a really big question. I want to ask, but it's also a really simple question. And the only reason I'm going to ask you is I know you've explored this already with a documentary you did, because I wouldn't normally ask people this. But what happens when you think about the question, did I love him?

Thea Rickard: 22:21

I have quite an emotional reaction to it. Because I know that for so long, I wondered that. And I think that's because when you grow up, you expect or you're told that love is a certain thing. And love looks a certain way. And when you experience that in a completely different way. It's confusing. I think I still don't know the answer. I still don't know whether I loved him or not. Because I think there's so many expectations that hang over my, my perception of that question. Like I think, Oh, I must have loved him. He's my dad. He's literally his genes that in me, but at the same time, I'm not sure if he loved me. So I think that's also a difficult one. And that, and that's a difficult thing to come to terms with, as well.

Chris: 23:18

So have you have you had to battle much with comparison? You know, were things that anything like, oh, it's Father's Day, or just hearing friends talking about their dads? Has it been much of your story where you've had to battle to not compare your story with others?

Thea Rickard: 23:35

I think I I've luckily not found myself, maybe not comparing. But I've definitely felt, you know, there's one friend that I have that her family are just the stereotypical family, you know, they've got she's got a mum and a dad. She's got a sister, she's got loads of cats. And you just go round, and it's just so happy. And I've never in my memory had that. And it always makes me really emotional when I go round. Not because necessarily, I don't even think I think that's because I want it. It's just something that's so lovely to see and so different to anything I've experienced. Yeah, I think that's been the main reaction that I've had.

Chris: 24:22

I mean, some would, I mean, I would I think if I put myself in your shoes being in that sort of experience that emotion when you say, you know, I always get quite emotional. For me that could be quite a, like a bitter emotion that actually I'm envious I'm struggling to not not be jealous of you in this situation. But it sounds pretty remarkable that you're so wise and so together, that you're able to almost sort of be thankful that you're your friend has that setup. I mean, how have you done that?

Thea Rickard: 24:54

I honestly don't know. I think there's there's definitely been times that you know, I've had it it's more been, you know, if if one of my friends has complained about their dad, I've definitely thought, well, you know, at least you've got a dad. And I've definitely had those thoughts. But also I am just really, you know, I wouldn't want anyone else to have gone through what I've gone through. And I think I don't know why. I think that I don't know why I don't feel envious. I think maybe it's because even though what I went through with my dad, and seeing that was really horrible. What has come from it is me being able to see how amazing my mom is. And I wouldn't want to change that. I wouldn't want to have not seen that. And so I guess for that reason, I wouldn't have wanted to change that experience.

Chris: 25:56

We interrupt this broadcast to bring you some very important and exciting news.

Claire : 26:01

Yes, at this exact point, almost. We are halfway through loss 51, which is a big deal for us, because in 2021, we set out to explore 101 losses. And this means that right now we are officially halfway through our podcast of finding 101 different types of loss.

Chris: 26:22

Thank you so much for being with us along the way and for being interested in grief and how to get through it, how to help others with it, how to find hope and Herman's marzipan along the way. And now back to the episode.

Claire : 26:40

So many layers to your grief. That's you know, it's a complicated structure really, because it it started long before his death, almost you were dealing with a father that wasn't the loving, supportive father that you might have hoped for, that other people might have had around them. So there's that loss there even at an early stage, even if you didn't really recognise it as loss. Well, the whole experience was it taught you about grief

Thea Rickard: 27:03

It's taught me that there's not one way to see grief, it's, it's taught me that grief is the most difficult thing. And it's something that I think people find the most difficult to address, people are uncomfortable around it a lot of times. And I think people that are going through it are also uncomfortable with it as well, understandably, that it's a messy feeling. And there's in the way that my grief started, as you say, long before my dad died. That in itself is messy and confusing and hard to explain. And so I think it's taught me that there's absolutely no way to know how grief will affect you. And there's nothing that you can really do about somebody else's grief, other than to just literally be there for them as much as you physically humanly can, in a way that you kind of know that they'll appreciate in a way that might be distant in a way that might just be checking in on them, but in a way that they'll still know you're there.

Claire : 28:15

Because your grief journey has been so you know, complicated. When you look back across it. Is there a worse point? Was there a point when you're like that was the hardest bit to kind of navigate and get through?

Thea Rickard: 28:28

Let me think there were there are points that stick out to me definitely as being particularly low. You know, there was a time that I went to see my dad, and I must have been about eight and this was when I was seeing him after church. And we met up on the seafront in Clevedon, which for anyone that doesn't know is a pretty quintessentially British seaside looking town with pebble beaches and appear in it's beautiful. And my dad needed to go to the toilet and instead of going inside, he just went to the toilet kind of on the on the street because he'd lost his I guess perception of hygiene and of of what is and isn't okay. And and I remember just being completely horrified. Because I was aware that that you know, I was I was worried about people looking at us and I was worried that my dad was gonna get in trouble for doing that but I was also really just felt really ashamed that not necessarily like for myself but for him that he got to that point and that he didn't even know that that wasn't okay anymore. I think I felt a real sense of shame. Yeah, so that was definitely one of one of the lowest moments. I think the hardest what will always be the hardest thing is still, to this day completely out of the blue, when I least expect it, I just get this Pang that it's just this like message in my head almost it's like your dad's dad and other people, not even other people are hanging out with their dads, but like, I guess I feel this like nostalgia for what I never had. And I still get that to this day of just wishing I had this other person in my life. And knowing that if this hadn't happened, you know, if if he hadn't, you know, been so affected by addiction, that we would have gone really well. And we probably would have been really good mates. I think that is what I still find really hard, because it is just really sad. And there's no way that I can, I can look at that, really, that doesn't make it sad. This isn't really me sharing it, but but my brother became a father fairly recently. And it's been really, really special seeing him make those decisions based on what we went through and what he saw, you know, of what he definitely won't do and what he will do, and how he'll treat his little girl. And that's been a really beautiful thing to see. And you know, it's even things like he knew how to change nappies, on his baby, because he used to help change my nappies. And so that's been a really lovely thing to yet is to watch him not need the advice, because he's been through it and implement that in real time to make sure that there's not another generation growing up with this in our family. Do

Claire : 31:44

Do you have any concept of how the grief might have been different if he'd had been a different person?

Thea Rickard: 31:49

Yeah, I guess it would have been much more linear. I think the grieving process perhaps, would have started a lot later than it did. And it probably would have been easier to process because I would have, you know, not had so many murky, complex, confusing feelings towards him. Yeah, it definitely would have been much easier, I think. But I don't know. Because it might have been harder, because he might have been someone that was totally in my life right until the end. And that would have been completely heartbreaking in a different way. So it's incomparable, isn't it?

Claire : 32:27

What's your best memory of him?

Thea Rickard: 32:31

That's a really difficult one. I have this memory of him. And I don't know why he was doing it. But I remember, there was this garage that we had that had like two doors to it, which were meant to be for two cars. But there was never any cars in it, it was just full of junk completely full. And I remember him like taking me around his bit of the Garriage. And it had those pair of tap shoes in it. And he was speaking to me about how he used to do tap when he went to drama school. And he just lit up. And his eyes went all twinkly and I think, and it's hard to because I must have been five or six. So, you know, this is really hard to remember. But I think he put them on his hands and then kind of waved them about an animator where I don't know if he if he tapped them on a box or if he if he just waved them, but it was just really, really him as he should have always been, I think, and I really remember that. And I don't know why because it's such a mundane memory, I was just sort of looking around bits and bobs in the in the garage with my dad. But for some reason, I've always remembered that.

Chris: 33:43

Having spent so much of your growing up your childhood, you know, being being formed into who you are now as an adult learning, watching, going through a lot of this sort of grieving the loss of your data at university onwards. How do you sort of respond to the question about, you know, what good has come from it? Have you been able to identify things of goodness that have come out of this situation, this whole narrative?

Thea Rickard: 34:10

I think it's it's difficult. There definitely have been good things to come out of it. I think the way I see the world has definitely been shaped, you know, whether I like it or not, it has been shaped by it. And I think I see the world through perhaps a more understanding lens than I would have done. And I think it's for that reason that I probably have my job and that I love journalism and telling untold stories because I don't want anyone to feel that sense of loneliness and that sense of isolation that I felt. But also, I wish that none of that had had to come from it. I think looking at the good that comes from something is only Li, something that you do when you're trying to find a silver lining. And that's important too. But I wish I didn't have to.

Chris: 35:08

We asked, we asked this question of all of the guests that we speak to on the Silent Way podcast. And that's around the question, why have you spent much time anytime loads of time asking? Why? Why me? Why dad? Why my family?

Thea Rickard: 35:24

Yeah, of course, I think that was my main frustration. Growing up, it felt so unfair, growing up in a fairly, you know, middle class town where everyone knew everybody. And it seemed like everybody had conventional lives. Now, I obviously know that's not true. It seemed like I was the only one that was going through something like this. But I think a lot of that anger that I felt has been dispelled over time, when I've realised that not only is that completely untrue, and that everybody is going through something at any given time, but also that everything is completely relative. You know, if if my friend is going through something, which for me wouldn't feel like a big deal. But for her is the biggest deal. I used to feel anger that I used to think you know, you're so you're so stressed out or worried or upset at this tiny thing, when I'm going through this big thing. Whereas now I think, well, thank goodness, that's what you're worried and stressed about, thank goodness, there's nothing else that's happened to you. That's put that in perspective. So I think that mindset that I've had has definitely changed. Yeah.

Claire : 36:41

You're so mature, when you speak about, you know, grief, and everything. And I know that you'll have had your moments when you don't feel at all mature about it, you're just broken down, because we all get those. But it's amazing how you talk about it. If there's somebody out there now who's either trying to process this kind of grief and wrestling with all these questions, I don't know if they love me, I don't know, if I love them, or this sort of thing is there. One thing in particular that's kind of helped you cope like a coping mechanism or something you've done or put in place that has been really helpful.

Thea Rickard: 37:11

I think there's a couple of things. And on a practical level, therapy is just the best word in the world I'm such an advocate for so I think even people that aren't going through grief, everyone should get therapy. And I know that it's pretty hard to access, I got it through mind. They offer sessions for I think 10 pounds a session with trainee therapists, and they've absolutely brilliant, they put you in touch with people in your area, you can do it online or in person. And that I found to be really life changing, because you just get to talk through absolutely everything. And even the things that you didn't even think were significant, that you realise, actually, oh, my God, this is why I felt this way for so many years. But I think on a less practical level in terms of just looking at mindset, I think just allowing things to be murky for a while would be my advice. And I know that listening to that will be frustrating. But to know that things don't have to be processed right away. And to know that you can just sit with things and feel the pain of them is a really important thing to know. Because I think a lot of my confusion came from the feeling that I need to process this, I need to think about these things in a certain way, so that I can get over them. And actually, the realisation that, you know, perhaps that that won't happen. And perhaps I just learned to live with these things, was definitely very freeing. And so I would encourage anyone to allow themselves to feel what they're feeling for as long as they need to and not to feel like there's no expiry date on grief, there's not a time that you have to, you know, just go back to work and pretend everything's fine. Again, you get to be as sad or as you know, whatever emotion you're feeling, in response, and as part of that grief for as long as you need to be. And to allow yourself the space to do that, I think would be my advice.

Claire : 39:24

That's such good advice. I'm taking that on board myself, because there is that for some people anyway, there's that kind of instant need to want to sort things out into boxes. This is how I feel about this is how I feel about this and to try and get it all in order so that I can deal with it. But you're right. So rarely is it even possible with emotions that to be able to sit in that murkiness for a bit and just let it be is great advice with regards to things like hope, because we look at hope a lot on the podcast and I blog about it and things and it's a tricky one for a lot of people. And this is a situation where in some ways you could look at it and think, Is there hope there's a bit of a hopeless One has it kind of has hoped come through this or has it kind of killed your ability to hope maybe in some way. So what is your kind of thought and feeling around hope?

Thea Rickard: 40:08

I definitely still think there is a lot of hope. Despite the fact that, you know, even putting what I've gone through aside, you know, my job is basically looking at all of the really depressing things that are happening every day. And yeah, I'm still managing to have hope through that as well. And I think the reason for that is that, throughout anything you're going through, there's always going to be people, there's always going to be ordinary people around you doing nice things, doing really weird things, making you chuckle as you walk down the street, as you know, someone trips over their shoelace, and then catches your eye and smiles. And it's a comedic moment, you know, there's always going to be those moments. And I think when you have a feeling that's as massive as grief, to really zoom in to those minuscule and seemingly completely meaningless interactions is definitely what brought me a lot of hope, and made me see life in a in a new way and in a different way. And in a way that made me want to move forward.

Chris: 41:11

For you in your 20s Just give us a brief insight, you know, things like therapy conversations with friends, you know, do you chat about this sort of stuff with your friends? Is there more openness towards sort of being vulnerable? And being honest with each other? How have you found that?

Thea Rickard: 41:29

I definitely, I think in my group of friends, I mean, I think it's different depending on different people. But I'm very lucky that in my group of friends, you know, we do have a sense of openness, I don't really feel like anything's off the cards, if I feel rubbish, I'll tell them, they'll do something lovely for me. And it's really, really positive. And I think a lot of people my age have a similar have similar relationships. I do worry about men my age, though, I don't think that men my age, have that seeing, you know, interactions between my friends that are boys. And you know, I'll find out something, you know, there was something not that long ago that I found that had happened with one of them that was really major in his life and grief that he was going through, that none of his friends had asked him about that none of his friends had thought to, to address because they saw it as you know, interfering or prying or maybe getting too emotional. And I worry about that, because I think that's to the detriment of many men's mental health. And I think in many ways, I'm really lucky that it's normalised at one point too much. But you know, now it's kind of healthily normalised for women to be emotional, and to have these emotions and to share them. Whereas I don't think the men of my generation are quite there yet. So hopefully, talking about hope, again, hopefully, the generation below will have a bit more to do with that.

Chris: 43:04

Absolutely incredible to hear of your experience. Thank you for sharing, thank you for opening up and sort of giving us so much wisdom for someone so young. To us. Let's round off, let's run, let's run off this conversation. Now, as we asked with all our guests to finish, what's your Herman,

Thea Rickard: 43:22

I think the feeling of knowing that you can't do anything about the situation, and to revel in, in how tangley and messy that can feel, is my Herman, because a lot of the time that can make people feel quite powerless. And actually, I think that, from my experience, and something that I'd like to pass on to other people, is to know that that feeling of, of not knowing what to do, and not knowing how you feel, can actually be incredibly powerful. And it can show you different aspects of your personality. And it can also change the way that you see the world it can afford you so much more wisdom, it can give you so much more sympathy to what other people are going through. And it can allow you to understand that absolutely everyone is, you know, whether it's consciously or subconsciously putting forward a narrative, and it allows you to kind of look below that and look beneath that and see people for the way that they truly are, or it allows you to try anyway, and I think I think that's my Herman because it's given me a lot of peace to be able to do that

Claire : 44:42

Ronald Reagan apparently said, 'Status quo, you know, is Latin for the mess we're in'. And he's right. We all live in a mess, and whether you find that idea of releasing or terrifying there is so much wisdom in it. Grief is messy, unorganised, chaotic and scary. But like Thea says knowing that and use and that information can help you to give yourself a break. No one really knows how to grieve properly. And you might find along the way you cultivate more empathy and understanding for others, which is a very powerful tool to have.

Chris: 45:11

Thank you Thea for a conversation that we know will speak to many people who lose family members where their relationship was complicated. We've put a link in the show notes to theists audio documentary on SoundCloud is called our dad. And it's definitely worth checking that out.

Claire : 45:26

For more about us, I'd love you to follow what I'm doing on social media and I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Threads -@thesilentwhypod. Or you can find out more about us the podcast my blog, Herman's how to support the show, which is the only thing that keeps it going really, and much more on our website, www.thesilentwhy.com

Chris: 45:43

We're finishing this episode with a quote from Orson F Whitney.

Thea Rickard: 45:48

"No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude, and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently builds up our characters, purifies our hearts expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable."