Chris & Claire chat Christmas and Childlessness

#089. Christmas can be hard, and we've experienced that ourselves as a childless couple, especially at a time of year when family seems to be at the heart of most festivities.

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss, and we're Chris & Claire Sandys, your childless hosts.

Every year we put out an episode where we chat about how we're feeling about Christmas. We started with an episode in 2021, talking about how hard it felt and Chris' loss of Christmas spirit, then we did another episode last year (Finding Comfort at Christmas - which included other podcast guests' experiences), and now here we are again.

In this episode we chat about how being intentional over the last two years has helped us face Christmas 2023, why it will always be a little sad, and what we're putting in place to try and regain our Christmas joy (even if it's just between the two of us).

We mention lots of other episodes you might want to hear, here are the links:

Chris' Loss of Christmas Spirit (2021): https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/4b23ecc3/chris-loss-of-christmas-spirit

Finding comfort at Christmas (2022):
https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/7c519304/finding-comfort-at-christmas

That weird time between Christmas and New Year: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/4be504ec/that-weird-time-between-christmas-and-new-year

Another New Year? Why?!!: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/7c36974a/another-new-year-why

Blog: A weary world rejoices: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/4b228ac5/blog-my-why-a-weary-world-rejoices

Blog: The Season of December: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/78557ecc/blog-my-why-the-season-of-december

Transcript

Claire : 0:02

Welcome back to The Silent Why Podcast. I'm Claire,

Chris: 0:04

and I'm the glamorous one, Chris.

Claire : 0:06

And if you're listening in 2023, then - Merry Christmas, you were gonna say that with me...

Chris: 0:12

Together...

Chris & Claire: 0:13

Merry Christmas.

Claire : 0:15

Of course, if you're not listening in 2023, then it might not be Christmas for you right now. So you can just ignore those last few seconds.

Chris: 0:21

Hopefully, you'll know by now, The Silent Why is a podcast on a mission to find 101 different types of loss. We're not just searching for lossy stuff. We're also looking for hope in amongst grief to see if it's possible to find hope in every type of loss.

Claire : 0:35

And we're up to loss 48, with 49 and 50 hot on its heels early next year. So we're very close to the halfway point,

Chris: 0:42

Which helpfully falls roughly halfway through loss 51.

Claire : 0:45

Yeah, we might need to take that loss on so we can pause halfway through and shout something like...

Chris: 0:49

Hooray for halfway!

Claire : 0:52

And the podcast has grown somewhat since we started in 2021.

Chris: 0:55

Yeah, by Christmas 2021, with nearly hit 2000 downloads,

Claire : 0:59

Which was way better than I expected. So I was aiming for about 1000 before the first Christmas.

Chris: 1:03

And here we are, over two years in we're heading for about 28,000 downloads all over the world. In fact, we've had downloads in Europe, North America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Oceania, in 114 countries and territories in 2413 cities.

Claire : 1:20

Impressive,

Chris: 1:21

The top three being in England, London and two in Gloucestershire, where we live, and Adelaide and Sydney, then Michigan, then Dublin Thank you, especially to those cities, because I suspect they contain some very loyal listeners,

Claire : 1:32

Indeed. And is it Oceania? Or is it Oceania? Because I've realised it's spelt very differently from how we often say it, write in and let us know. We thought it was about time for another episode with just the two of us because for some reason, people seem to really like those. And we always try and do an episode like this around this time of year to update people on where we are personally with things and how we're feeling as we navigate childlessness after infertility. And sometimes it's a bit of a wrestle for us to find peace and joy around Christmas again. So we thought we'd just update you on where we are.

Chris: 2:03

When we began this podcast a few years back, one of the first episodes we did like this, in the December was about my loss of Christmas spirit, where I shared about how I found it hard not having excitement around Christmas, like I did as a child and having no children around me to create it for us.

Claire : 2:19

Yeah. And then last year, we did another episode called comfort Christmas, which was reflecting on where we were after Chris's loss of Christmas spirit episode the year before, and how we were feeling after a year of interviewing people about grief. And the episode included podcast guests telling us why they find Christmas hard, but also how they draw comfort from that season. And it was so lovely to hear them all coming together again. And we're actually going to use some of those and add some new guests to it for an episode that we're gonna put out on Christmas Day.

Chris: 2:44

So this time last year, we actually went away just the two of us, we hopped on a car, can you hop on a car safely, we went under the sea, in a car hopping to Belgium for five days, that was the first time ever that we'd left the country at Christmas. And there's just the two of us. And apart from you being ill with a heavy cold, we had a pretty great time

Claire : 3:03

We did, yeah. And it's worth reflecting on that decision before we move on to where we are now and how we're feeling really, because Christmas for us has always been a very fluid concept. And as we've said before, we don't alternate families each year. So no one including us really knows where we're going to be each Christmas. And not having had children, I'm really pleased that we made this decision early on, because it does give us the flexibility to do what we need to do. So this wasn't the first Christmas, just the two of us, we'd had plenty of those. But it was the first time we went away on our own. And I don't think we could have picked a better country or location really, because there were Christmas markets everywhere. Things were open, people were around, it was cold, but it was dry. There was lots of Christmas lights, we had the meaning gate and a lot of War history. So that seemed to create an atmosphere of sort of reality around the season for me rather than that magical feeling of whimsy that we might not be feeling internally.

Chris: 3:50

And it is worth highlighting that we've been on quite a journey with Christmas, from absolutely loving it to being a little bit sort of in dread of it, finding it a bit stressful at times finding a bit sad, feeling like we don't quite fit in, in places, that sort of thing. In fact, out of those feelings, there's places you've written a number of blogs, you can listen back to you can read, if you're finding yourself this year in a similar place and want to draw comfort from not being alone.

Claire : 4:14

Yeah, and on the website, you can go to www.thesilentwhy.com/blog. And there's a Christmas in New Year category. So you can tick that box and it'll just bring up all those blogs. The one I put out recently 'Christmas: Friend or Foe foe foe?' about finding Christmas as a bit of an enemy sometimes and how to make it your friend again, there's The season of December' that I put out as part of my season series. This looks at how it can be quite a hard season for people but how I sort of turned it into a potential source of healing instead. And then there's 'A weary world rejoices' - how to still rejoice at Christmas. And then 'The art of making everyone welcome' and that blog has tips in it to incorporate the childless single, sad, lonely divorced or grieving into your gatherings and how to make them kind of feel part of it and not to exclude it. So there's loads of stuff there that I've just blogged through my own feelings really just to help others I'm over the various Christmases. So lots of stuff there for you. But today, we're going to be chatting about where we are personally with Christmas with being childless. How do we feel about the season? And like we said, we started in a place when we first started the podcast in 2021. of feeling quite sad, I guess about Christmas, but also a little bit stressed by it. It we did feel like we didn't really fit in it was it wasn't a great place. And so we explored a lot of those feelings on that episode, we mentioned loss of Christmas spirit. Last year, we were getting a bit more intentional about how to do Christmas, we reflected then. So here we are now. How are you feeling about this Christmas?

Chris: 5:39

Genuinely feeling good, I think there's there's so much more to say than that. Of course, I'd probably want to start with talking a bit about thinking overthinking, can you overthink? Do we overthink? should we or should we think more because I really recognise having listened back to some of the podcasts material from last year in the year before. realise how far that we've come on, I'll talk just just about me from realise how far I've come in regards to sort of sitting in and spending time in thoughts and feelings, which is quite a new thing. It's not something that, you know, has been part of my life as a younger man, when I was growing up. And so I do spend a lot more time now sitting with feelings of you know, wherever I'm at, if it's good, if it's bad, somewhere in between. And I'm really thankful for that, because I think that has allowed me to grow and change and to, to do quite a bit of work on myself. So on the one hand, I think that's been really positive. But sometimes I wonder if, you know, there's that little voice in me that tries to encourage me to look on the bright side a bit more to be a bit more glass half full. And sometimes I can't work out whether that voice is a healthy voice or with unhealthy voice. You know, I don't want to be someone that just says, you know, look on the right side, all the time, because I want to be real about stuff. And sometimes we need to look on the not so bright side to recognise what's going on. So yeah, unpack what you will from that. But I really am grateful for the work that I've been able to do on myself, which is partly by the intentionality of allowing yourself to sit in something to think about something to return to something many times. But I do still question whether that's a good thing all the time, or whether sometimes I have to snap out of the whatever.

Claire : 7:40

Yeah. When you go back and listen to that episode about talking about loss of Christmas spirit. How does it feel now listening back to that?

Chris: 7:50

If it feels it feels good, it feels like a really, I'm really glad that I recognised that and sort of spoke it out spoke out loud. Because it's freed me to be real. And to be honest, not just with myself, but with other people as well. If he asked about stuff, it doesn't mean that, you know, I don't still have similar thoughts that I had a few years back, I still sometimes find myself, you know, check myself in terms of excitement, or why am I not feeling more excited? What am I looking forward to what we're not looking forward to? So yeah, listening, listening back to that. Yeah, I see that I've come quite a long way since then, in just a couple of years.

Claire : 8:36

So what would be the remaining sort of sadnesses or things that you really struggle with about the season that you're having to either recognise or try and get better with or don't know, what sort of challenges you're about?

Chris: 8:52

Well, I don't have children. I think that's still a challenge. I think it's, and that too, is something that, again, that little voice in me says don't but there's no law of voice that says do and that's just keep reminding myself that I'm childless. You know, just to say that out loud to remember, you know, this isn't how I wanted it, because I don't have children. I'm a childless guy. I didn't imagine that. We'd be in this place, you know, when I was growing up. So yeah, it's I think it's important to keep remembering that not to ignore it or push it away. But that little voice in me says, you know, come on, look on the bright side, you got so much going for you got so much other stuff going for you. Life is so different by not having children, and much of that is good, and have so much more resource and much more energy. But yeah, I'm childless, so that's not going to change. That's not gonna change this Christmas next Christmas in five Christmases time. So, yeah, I need to remind myself of that. And remember that if you said mentioned about being intentional, that was a big subject for us last year, wasn't it, we were doing more to be intentional in the last couple of years to actually make ourselves put stuff in place. So that's such a help, I think, to recognise am childless, I'm going to do this. Or we're childless, or we're going to do this. And just make sure that we're putting stuff in Christmas time for the two of us to create memories and experiences in good feelings.

Claire : 10:27

And that's been quite a journey for you. Because I know, I don't know when it was, before we started the podcast, or maybe during the podcast, there was a point when I was sort of recognising that I wasn't allowing myself to feel some of the feelings that I would have felt about not having children because of, again, a similar sort of, not maybe look on the bright side, but I can get through this, you know, I'm strong, I don't need to be broken by this sort of thing. And I remember saying to you, I never really know what would make you sad, you know, do you see other parents with kids? What makes you sad? And I think you were sort of recognising that the same thing with you didn't really allow yourself to go there. So you again, intentional, you got quite intentional about recognising things that you would have liked and then voicing them. And actually, that was hard to watch, or that makes me sad. I know, that's been something that's been helpful for you along the way.

Chris: 11:13

Well, you said you verbalise that to me, I don't know when you're feeling sad. Okay, I will start just saying it out loud. If I see something, if I see a child went into the arms of his or her dad, you know, I'm like, oh, that's that look lovely. That makes me a bit sad. I'll tell you. So I have made more of a point of just trying to speak out more for you than for me, just so you know that there's human feelings that, you know, I'm not bottling stuff up. Just just so you can learn more about me, I guess. Yeah.

Claire : 11:44

But I think it's also good for you to recognise, oh, actually, I do have things, though, it's alright, to sit in those things for a minute or two and recognise

Chris: 11:51

I'd recognise it before, I just wouldn't share it, it would just be something that I'd be like, in so you wouldn't know any different, you might just think I'm normal, whatever, consistent constant feelings. Because I just wouldn't, I wouldn't share that I wouldn't say not because I wanted to keep it secret, I just didn't think to share it.

Claire : 12:11

And there is a different sometimes with noticing something and thinking, Oh, that person's doing that because they're a parent, I don't get to do that, that is a different thought I've recognised and actually making it even more personal. And thinking, I would have liked that, or I'm never gonna get to do that. That, for me has been a step. Rather than just spotting all these things that parents get to do and childless people don't get to do, it almost kept it a distance from me a little bit. And I've tried to personalise it a bit more and say, well, actually, I don't get really sad around babies and pregnant women, that's not ever been my thing. But seeing families together and seeing the way children interact with their parents and seeing the, the older kids, you know, interacting with their pet, all that kind of stuff that makes me sad. And recognising that actually, there's things that will make you sad as a childless person that won't necessarily make the person next to you sad as a child was person. So it's important to tease those out and work out what your things are that you find hard, and I've recognised those. And then I can build that into my life to either avoid certain things that I know, that's just not going to be healthy for me to sit in. Or to know that I can do that. Because that's not something that makes me sad, I don't need to be like that. It's very easy to sort of think, Oh, I can't have children, therefore, I will never be able to be around a pregnant lady or I will never be able to hold a baby without it being this, this, this. And this, you can put that on yourself without that actually being your personal experience. So I think it's important to to make it personal. I think when I heard you talking about it, that's what it was happening. I was working out what are the sad things that you find difficult, you know, do you have trouble seeing pregnant women? Because you know that? I'll never be like that? Or do you have trouble being around dads that are talking about taking their boys to football? Or is it around University kids when they come home for the summer? You know, what is it and that's that's been really helpful for me to learn what you would have liked and what taps into you?

Chris: 13:57

And to move on as well. I think what this is quite an interesting thought, and this is something you've made me think about, you've sort of raised the subject a couple of times, when you talk about not having children or for you imagine yourself with children, what age does that tend to be what age Charlie? You talked about sort of being around friends who are pregnant. So if you if you think of yourself with children, right now, what age are those children?

Claire : 14:26

Yeah, they'd be early teens. I guess. I don't picture that I have moved on from the probably why? Well, no, it's not why I find it to be around pregnant people because I've always I've never really had that. So I've always found it's quite sort of special, really, but I have moved on through the years as we would have had children. If I think about instantly now. I do think about them being older. I don't think about having a baby.

Chris: 14:49

Yeah, I still I still think about babies I interesting. Yeah. And that's, I guess that's the biggest subject that we've spoken about many times that it feels like for us being a child list that one of the biggest symptoms of that is, is just the big pause button being pushed. It felt like after we'd come through all those milestones of life through your first job finishing education, we know first long term relationship becomes marriage, all that sort of stuff. For us, many of our friends, the next milestone is the first child. And from that point on, it feels like things have just paused. And so I'm still in that place that even though physically and realistically, I'm now several years older than I was, when that was the case, I still think of myself, the default position for thinking of having children is babies, I still think about having a toddler. Whereas actually, as you've really helpfully reminded us that if we'd had children, when, you know, the time could have had if it happened, those children would now be in their teens.

Claire : 15:54

2010 I think we found out we were having issues. So yeah, it'd be heading 14 next year. Yeah. I think that has helped again, by being around women. I'm around women with all different age children. At the moment, it was a time when all our friends were having it all had young children or babies. Now I've got friends who have got children ranging out to their 20s. So I think as I've had more friends with all and their children have got older, you go I go through those milestones, sort of thinking that would be me, that would be the first day of school that would be there. So it'd be that I kind of I've moved with it. So I'm already at the moment probably processing, what would it be like to have kids that are 12 1314 and showing those interest in things at school or, you know, one of our neighbor's kids is really into animals and zoo keeping and stuff. I just think I'd love to have chat chatted about that kind of stuff with a child and those sorts of things. I've brought myself forward a bit, I think. But yeah, interesting. So I hadn't really thought about that much. That's just where I am. It's interesting that like you said, but I don't think men talk about it as much. I'm around a lot of chats that we know, women talking about parenting and children was, we said the other day, and we were some other friends. Women come up against a lot of questions like, you know, do you get Are you married? Do you have children? So we have to answer that question a lot. Whereas you said, you don't really get asked that so much. Men don't really ask those questions. So you're not faced with the same sort of thought processes, I guess.

Chris: 17:19

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes to all of that.

Claire : 17:23

You talked about being intentional. What are you doing this Christmas that is intentional. That's making it better than 2021?

Chris: 17:34

I think one of the big things is around expectations. Now, as you know, I've done various experiments in the last year to manage expectations. Yes, some fair bit depressing. Let's say for example, like we booked overseas trip. And so I have intentionally had very low expectations. And I mean, I've told you, I told you that from the start, like, Okay, I'm going with very low expectations. And then I've ended up really enjoying that trip. Because I've been surprised. I've been delighted. So I've been playing around with where am I? You know, am I naturally someone that expects too much? Because we must all be different, we can't all expect the same thing of the same thing. So Will my by default, do I expect too much and therefore find me more disappointed than you? Or, you know, whatever. I've been doing a bit of a science experiment, which I've think I've benefited from, I think I've learned quite a bit from it. But to bring it back to Christmas, what is supposed to be about Christmas this year is about the unexpected, and trying to set things up to be more open to the unexpected, rather than everything being known what's going to happen. And that's some that I think feeds into the childlessness thing because so often kids do things that were unexpected to so often an adult a parent's life, I think from the outside looking in. A parent is absolutely full of unexpected, whatever thoughts, feelings, experiences, whereas what we do so often because we're doing it as expected, so I've, I've leaned in, I've lent in, leaned in? Lent?

Claire : 19:22

On of those two, let's go with Lent, because it's Christmas.

Chris: 19:25

I've lent in to just being more

Claire : 19:30

Oh no, lent's Easter. It's the Advent, sorry,

Chris: 19:33

Ad-lent?! I've leaned in to the more unexpected things of this Christmas time, and I'm enjoying it. So that's sort of quite an intentional thing about searching for the unexpected or searching for being open to the unexpected.

Claire : 19:46

That reminds me of an Instagram video I saw this week when you said kids bring the unexpected. It was a child who opened a toy from their parents. I think it's had $49 on it. What happens when your child opens a$49 Present? And he like it was a mo All aeroplane and he put it all together and this child ran through the hallway holding it in his hand cryptid fell and smashed his hands so hard on the floor that it just went into about 50 bits all across. Much like, there we go. That's still expected, isn't it? You don't get that with the chocolates life.

Chris: 20:16

Yeah, yeah, it is. So, yeah, one more thing, I think just to add in, and I'll ask you the same question. But really trying to think more of others, and put others before myself. It's something that I'm working on as well. Because that doesn't come naturally to me. And I can, I think at my core, I can be quite selfish, can be quite greedy. So I've been doing some work on myself in the last six months, about, you know, gaining things or gaining money. And actually even planning stuff when it comes to Christmas. You know, there's various things that you've wanted to do that I've been very happy to go along with, rather than put up a fight, you know, because the selfish me would have been like, no, no, like, what? Like, what? So probably one of the main things is, you know, how early do we go Christmassy. In the UK, I think we saw Christmas chocolates appear in supermarkets at the end of September. I think that was the earliest we saw it this year. Maybe that's the earliest we've ever seen Christmas stuff starting to come into the shops in December. So so the Grinch me just goes the opposite way, and wants to be anti Christmas until I allow myself into the floodgates to open. And that is normally what two or three weeks before Christmas this year, however, you were really keen to do Christmas early to get Christmas tree early to decorate the house to get just the most bang for our buck, let's say.

Claire : 21:49

In December, I want to clarify. We wait for December.

Chris: 21:53

Yeah, there was some Christmas trees up earlier than that in houses around where we live in November time. But you I think, literally it was the first of December, wasn't it? Was that Saturday? The first?

Claire : 22:02

No, Saturday was the second. But I think on the Friday put lights up. So yeah, it's the first.

Chris: 22:06

Okay. So yeah. But rather than, rather than me challenge that or be a bit sort of argumentative and then therefore a bit like reluctant or resentful of doing that. I joined you in it says that. Okay, well, why not? Let's give it a try. Let's see how well it goes. Let's do. And again, this comes back to Christmas episodes in previous years where I've learned more about the things that you really cherish about this time of year. And so I've stopped to just make myself more aware of the things that bring you joy and the things that warm your spirit. So I engaged with that, rather than just me going after the things that I enjoy. What have you so yeah, so we did Christmas early this year. And hopefully you'll feel like I wasn't too resistant to it.

Claire : 23:01

No, I mean, most of what you're talking about in internal wrestling, to be honest, I don't see half of this going on. So I don't really I don't even really think I've seen your resistance in the past. If it is I just think it's like a jokey thing of like, When should we do Christmas? But yeah, I never see it as a serious thing. So no, I didn't I didn't feel like there's any resistance. Okay, good. Pleased to hear it. I think you have a lot more internal wrestling that goes on the outside. So sometimes you probably feel like you are being like that, but it doesn't actually show so. Okay, so you didn't notice.

Chris: 23:30

That'd be me. I think two things that I've been more focused on that sort of being open to the unexpected. And just trying to put others before myself regularly rather than me wanting my way. Okay, your turn then, in terms of what you've learned from previous Christmases, what we've talked about on the podcast, how's your buildup, being to this Christmas?

Claire : 24:02

Yeah, I think this one's been good. Actually. The last two have been pretty good, but for very different reasons. Last year, we were going away, which was very exciting. I like the idea of just leaving it all behind. So this is the first year since thinking about lots of Christmas spirit and really exploring why we find it hard. This is the first year we're actually home and staying in the country and seeing some family and doing the normal Christmas thing when we were done in the past. So it could have been potentially harder in some way. But it isn't. Yeah, I think I'm in a good place this year. Again, the intentionality has been huge. And one of the things that really helped me was something that I think one of our guests said on the interviews we did that about why Christmas is hard and how to how do they get comfort from it? And they were sort of saying they realised that basically to do things you enjoy at Christmas is not selfish when you're on your own or you've got no children. No these sorts of things. I think you could be very selfish about Christmas. If you've got lots of people involved. You're like I'm doing it this way. But when it's just you and you're struggling to enjoy the season at all, it's actually really important to put some things in place that you really enjoy. And that really hit home to me because I thought, Well, I'm not hurting anybody to put things in that I really look forward to. So being very intentional about knowing that I really enjoyed the Christmas lights on the outside of the house inside on the Christmas tree. So put them up as early as possible enjoy them have them on we don't even get to see the outside lights hardly at all. But I like that other people get to see them. Nice food, things I enjoy, you know, like having marzipan. Bit of Christmas cake with cheese...

Chris: 25:39

That's just a year round thing isn't?!

Claire : 25:40

Not the Christmas cake, the marzipan, yes. But I can have extra if I want to, I can just do things and eat things that we only have at this time of year mince pies, making mince pies, eating mince pies, I am not allowed to eat those outside of December the rest of the year because I live with a man that will not touch minced meat outside of December. So I can do things like that. That's, that's very intentional, that I really enjoy and realising that it's not selfish, it's me creating a time of year that I can really enjoy. But what I have recognised and thought about a lot this week, knowing we were doing this chat, when I look back to 2021. And how we were feeling then. And all the Christmases before that probably for a while. And I look at now it's not that now is better. And there was and that was worse. It's that I'm holding them intention. And I'm doing it a lot better. So the sadness is was still be there, we're still dealing with the same problems of not having our own children not having a lot of the joys of Christmas, a lot of people do still have these big family Christmases or they meet with family for Christmas. And you know, it's all lovely, because there's cousins getting together and all this kind of thing, we will never have that, that's always going to be difficult. And because people tend to go into their own shells at Christmas, I do feel like it will always be a bit of a lonely time. You know, everyone sort of goes off the radar a bit, that will all still be there. But I can make my Christmas as enjoyable as possible. And that can involve things like staying here choosing to see family, you know, connecting with our parents, or do we quite often see or we can go abroad do other things, it might be that we do a bigger family thing. If we choose to with wider family, we have those options. And depending on how you're feeling and where you are, we can make it what we need it to be. And it's not a selfish thing. It's actually self preservation. And that's okay. And I think for years, I assumed that we would need to do the big family Christmas with nieces and nephews and, you know, cousins coming together. And I knew that will be really hard, really hard to watch and know that that wasn't our story. We didn't have anything for it. We didn't have anything to input, we didn't bring anything to the table. There were no kids coming with us that other kids were looking forward to seeing. You know what it's like when you got the auntie and uncle around at Christmas, it's just that token couple at the table that are a lot older than you that, you know, I look back, I always thought my aunts and uncles were so old. And it's just, I don't want to feel that that's me. But the reality is, it is someone in their 40s to a six year old is pretty old. So it's just recognising those things and knowing that actually, I think for us, connecting with children will be easier with older children. And that's my kind of forte anyway, I think. And so just accepting that as we move along the years and building a Christmas that I know that I can enjoy. And that won't hurt me and not worrying so much about what other people think of that or bowing to other people's pressure to feel like I need to be there to tick a box for them. Because all the families together and that makes them feel happy. I could quite easily live my whole life doing that. But I've learned I can't the sacrifice for me is too big. I need to preserve myself a little bit. But in doing that I'm finding my own feet with joy, with peace with hope with all the good things about the season Carols I love Carol's the words of Carol's are so much more comforting than half of the secular songs out there. There's no expectation to have a big, happy, amazing Christmas that you wish was happening every day. It's just you know, it's coming together a weary world rejoicing.

Chris: 29:14

Well, yeah, we had that conversation a couple of days. But the Carol, the words of the Christmas carols are a lot more realistic, a lot more focused on, you know, where the world actually is at. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's been a horrible year across the world for bad news, and that Christmas carols speak into the bad but speak into the hope that there is finding the hope finding the joy in a time of weariness and a time of difficulty. Whereas the pop songs the sort of the the Christmas stuff you hear in all the shops, you know is all pretty false, isn't it? It's all just about superficial fun kissing under the mistletoe.

Claire : 29:56

One thing you can't say about the nativity story is that it's not relevant or comforting. It's not some, you know, high up King that comes down into a big palace and rules the world. You know, it's a tiny, vulnerable baby born to a mother who's not weighed, you know, in a mucky, stable, surrounded by animals who's come as a sacrifice for other people. Who doesn't connect with that, whether you believe it or not as a real story, or just a nice myth or something, how can you not connect with that being what this season is about? But we've Yeah, we've made it into needing to have big family things are under fire while there's snow outside, and everyone's happy and got loads of money and presents, and it's just like, well, hardly anyone connects with that, so...

Chris: 30:39

And that that whole Bible element is just full of the unexpected. I think, as I was talking about 10 minutes ago, of just looking being open for the unexpected at Christmas, you know, the nativity story is full of the unexpected. Whatever you'd expect the life the arrival of a saviour to look like, nothing like it in reality.

Claire : 30:59

No, no, that's what I love about it. So yeah, that's I haven't I do, obviously, you know, being a Christian, that's a large part of the season, but it's not a religious part of the season. For me, it is actually a part of the season that does bring me a lot of genuine hope and joy and comfort in a way that a lot of other stuff doesn't,

Chris: 31:16

It sounds like then that you're quite on reflection, looking back over the last year, you're quite pleased with the distance you've covered?

Claire : 31:24

Yeah, I think I've done a lot of work. And I would massively credit that to a lot of our podcast guests, and making me explore and think about and the stuff they've shared with us. I've learned so much about grief about finding hope in situations where it feels hopeless, just being inspired by the things that people do. It's really taught me that there's a lot of grief, you can't control. But there is a lot of it, you can choose to bend to your will really eventually maybe not in the early throes of really horrific grief, I get that. But there is a lot of it later down the line that you can choose to either let it master you, or you can take control of it and doesn't mean that you don't get sad doesn't mean it's not hard. It just means that each time you fall, you choose to get up again. And there's always a choice to do that you can stay on the ground as long as you want with grief. Or you can at some point get up, or you can keep tripping over and falling down and keep getting up. And I think that's something I've learned is that okay, well, this is my challenge, this is what I'm struggling with. But I am going to get up again, it might not be for a week, or two or an hour or whatever, but I'm gonna get up again. And that is then I'm clinging to that. And I partly cling to that, because I've spoken to so many other people who said, You know what, it's possible, we'll help each other, but you can get up again. So I think I've really, I've learned so much about that. And I've put Christmas into that mould really of, well, you know what I can, I can make you what I want you to be, and I can choose to let you make me feel sad for the whole season. And like I'm missing out on I'm not worthy, and I haven't got everything I should have. And I'll never be this person or that person, I'll never have this, I can choose to dwell on that. Or I can choose to actually really enjoy a mince pie in the quiet of my house and not worry about it and not you know bemoan what's not there, but actually appreciate what I do have. And that's really hard. Because even saying that out loud. In my head. I'm thinking to myself, you know, a lot of parents are going to be listening and thinking, Oh, wow, that's amazing. I'd love to have a mince pie in silence in my house. Because I've had that said to me 100 times, people want the quiet of a childless house. They don't want the quiet of a childless house, because that comes with no children, and all of the stuff that you go through to try and get children. It's incredibly different from what people picture it but people do devalue that a lot and just sort of make out it's the absence of children. And that sounds amazing, because they've got kids around all the time. So I'm wrestling with that. But overall, I'm learning to appreciate those things I have. And just be like, No, you know what, this isn't my first choice. But there's a lot of lovely things in it. And I'm gonna try and celebrate those and not worry about what other people might be thinking. Because you think then if you appreciate them, people will assume you didn't want children, or you just got over it. And that's hard as well. Because you don't want people to think that not that I can control what people think but as an Enneagram to it's very important what other people are thinking.

Chris: 34:24

Yeah, darn you and your Enneagram stuff. My word, the amount I'm having to try and analyse myself.

Claire : 34:31

What do you mean'try'?! You love it! Or do we try you love it

Chris: 34:32

...because of my Enneagram type

Claire : 34:34

That has been very helpful. Shout out to Lori Alcon for helping us find the Enneagram we did an episode with her talking about it because she did the qualification training to be a coach in it. And it was the first time I come across it. I didn't actually look into it for a while but then we bought the basic book. And actually, I would say for our marriage and in helping each other. Help it we're helping ourselves get through grief and working out our own selves. It's been so helpful. And for even just working together on the podcast and recording together, but also for things like Christmas, because I can see, the pressures I have on me aren't always found it and I need to work with that. And same for you because they're very different pressures.

Chris: 35:12

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm reminded of one other big thing that I've, I've come to recognise not just this year, I think the last couple of years since the pandemic really, which had a knock on effect for physical contact, you know, we're still, you know, the world is different, I think after the since the pandemic. So I'd just be interested just to hear briefly, where you are with this to see if it's a me thing, or if it's an every one thing. And that's that, I've come to realise about myself that I really rely quite heavily, I have relied quite heavily on external stuff for my good feelings for my good vibes, rather than actually been able to find that within, regardless of the external circumstances. And that applies quite a lot to Christmas. Because Christmas is, you know, in previous decades, where I've been a child is all about the external stuff. It's all about just everything from Carol singing through to presents under the tree to opening the curtains hoping you sort of see a white Christmas outside the weather. So now, because we don't have that, where we are now in our 40s, no children open the curtains in Britain, and there's another damp, nine degrees Celsius day. And it's just like, you know, all of that external stuff, I've come to realise and this applies to say to a number of aspects of my life, that I got to stop letting myself be so affected by the externals I need to make the internals more of the, the sort of the wellspring of good thought, good feeling that sort of thing. Where are you in that regard? Is that a new thing, or do you...

Claire : 36:53

No, it's not just a you thing. Because, you know, when I think back to everything I've just said, that I've put in place for Christmas, then yeah, it's massively all external food lights, I'm trying to force myself into a situation where I feel better. So yeah, I mean, just you even saying that is challenging. I think the the external feels like it's, it's more within our control, weirdly enough. So I can make that look, make it look happy and make it look make make it look like I want it to look inside. However, it's harder to change, it takes a lot more effort and work, it's hard to recognise what's wrong and what needs changing. It's hard to know how to feel. So I think that is a lot more complicated. So if I were to think, how am I internally making Christmas better? Then I guess I would just be going back to what I said about intentionally choosing to try and keep getting up again, each time it knocks me down. I wouldn't say I've found a way to be joyful around Christmas every year without it affecting me negatively, or having a joy that overrides the sadness that will come up. I mean, I feel good now. But I still haven't been faced with half of the stuff that actually is difficult. When a lot of family start getting together, and people start going away and doing things that's all yet to come, we're too early yet for that stuff. So I know that's coming. So yeah, internally, much harder. But I do feel stronger, that I know things will affect me. And that's helpful, because it's not going to come unexpected. I know, I know the sorts of things that affect me. And when they do affect me, I know, I can recognise them. And then I've got a choice what I do with that. Then, you know, even just today we went we went to some to some shops, and I saw a little girl run out of the toilets, and her dad was there. And he just sort of you know, caught her up and and he just held her up and held her up into a hug. And just watching that scene. You know, it's just it was just a moment of recognising Wow, that must feel good. Like, especially as a person who's one of my love languages is touch. Yeah. So the idea of a child holding on to you or grabbing your running to give you a hug. I mean, that's I don't know if parents recognise when you don't have that what, what a comfort that is. And some people will get that 1015 times a day. For me looking in I'm just like, wow, what? What a kind of what a Yeah, but a moment of love. So you see this but recognising it now. I just think oh, that must be nice. And then there's a quick check in of like, I wish I had that. But then there's a choice to keep moving on and be like, I don't have that.

Chris: 39:37

There's definitely, yesterday and I just I caught you unawares and we were standing about a metre apart and I put my hand around the back of your, I think your mid speaking and I put my hand on the back of your head. So we were facing each other. I put my hand around and just in the back of your head. And there was there was such a fizzy Call and visible reaction to that, that just this was sort of this warmth. This like, you know, I think you got you had to stop talking she was so overcome with just feelings of like, I just feel so nice. Yeah, that you know that that that touch as a you know, as a love language for you to feel loved by, you know, touch. I'm glad you still react that when your husband of 15 years is the one that sort of touching the back of your head. I'm glad that they're still that that lovely reaction? 18 years. 18 years. Going back going on 19, isn't it? Yeah. But yeah, you realise that? We are the only ones that can touch each other in that way. Got to be careful.

Claire : 40:49

Yeah. So I think when you go looking for it elsewhere, it becomes a problem.

Chris: 40:52

Yeah, we tried guinea pigs, we looked after some good neighbours. And I think you were really hopeful that you would get a bit of love and a bit of stress relief out of holding a guinea pig. Which, which you did.

Claire : 41:05

Yeah. They are pretty soft.

Chris: 41:06

Yeah.

Claire : 41:06

It's not like a dog. But it is

Chris: 41:07

not the same as a dog or a cat

Claire : 41:09

They are very docile and very sweet like that. But every time you mentioned that, like the touch thing. I picture, if anyone has seen Guardians of the Galaxy, there's a moment at the end when Rocket the raccoon is sat on a sound something and he's sad because something happened won't ruin it if you haven't seen it. But one of the other characters, I don't know which one it is, might be dragged, sort of touches him on the head, and his whole body just flinches. Like he tightens up like that. And then he just like strokes him. And I feel like that's, that's the sort of that's how I feel. I think he did it out of like, almost a fear thing. But minds like, oh, hang on a second, something's happening. It's just something just relaxes into it. But yeah, and you know, I've thought about that over the years and things like that I find really helpful for those that are listening, that don't have children, work out those things that, you know, you won't get through being a parent that do feed you to try and find other ways. You know, touch is one of them. For me, but my other love language is words of affirmation. And again, you think of the amount of lovely things that parents say, their kids say to them, I mean, all sorts of bad things as well. But just moments where they say something lovely, or they say something unique or kooky, you know, payments are always quoting their kids, like, oh, he said this, he said that wasn't this lovely, or he did this in the play, or he sang this or that, you know, there's all these moments of just pride and joy and connection. And those things, when you're dealing with a lot of the challenges and the sleeplessness of children, I would imagine get lost quite a lot. I bet they do bring you a lot of joy, and they make up for the other side of it. But no, if you realise like from the outside, just how feeding, those sorts of things are for adults, there's a real love that comes through that that can sustain you. And then you're getting that love from different sources, obviously,

Chris: 43:01

A similar thing to that as well as being needed. Yeah, the amount of ways that a child will ask a parent for help. And I know again, is the two of us in our house, you know, always has been, and still to this day, you love to hear it's quite rare. And again, I have to try and make an effort to use the word to sort of say, I need I need you. Could you help me with this? Yeah, because I'm pretty self sufficient. But it really warms your heart when I ask for your help when I need your help. And we some people that just find that alien, because it's like, oh my Well, every day I'm being asked to do something we ask for help. Whereas for you, you really get value from that being needed.

Claire : 43:39

Again, there's a big difference between getting feeling like you're needed too much, which a lot of parents will be feeling and never been needed. And you know, there was a, I've come to a point in my life where I just think, flip no one needs me. And obviously, you know, very family but like we knew, but not like you don't actually rely on me for something physical that I give you. So even like looking, it's gonna sound stupid. But I don't know if it's a female thing that we have this sort of caring nature of wanting to look after things when I hear women who are pregnant, talk about nesting and doing all this stuff. Again, I just think some of us feel like that anyway, and without the pregnancy or the baby coming. But even like we've got a real Christmas tree at the moment, which is one of the things I love about Christmas and you know, really want to always have and it needs water every day because the thing is just sucking up as much water as I can give it so it gets my rain water from the water but and for a while that is a lovely month of something relying on me for something practical that I just feel a bit needed by that true life. Yeah, yeah, exactly. To keep it alive. It needs something from me and it's the same looking after the guinea pigs and things like that. It's really lovely looking after something that is waiting on you and need you. And I think again, we we underestimate that especially for women. who don't have children? You're not needed much anymore. There isn't this sort of life form that's relying on you in any way. I think that's where a lot of people get pets. So a lot of childless people will get dogs. And there is something about that I've got something I'm looking after I'm carrying for it. And it needs me. And I felt that when we had our dog, and when it's not there, it's difficult, but so flippin expensive. Yeah, and other things to weigh up other than just, that would be lovely. Nowadays, with the cost of everything going up it a lot of people can't get stuff like that to fill those needs. So yeah, a lot to consider. And I think it's all very individual, some people will never feel the need to look after a tree. And nor should they. But at the same time, it's worth working out what part of parenting you would miss it might be the busyness it might be the you know, the commitments and interacting with other adults at the school gates or being part of a PTA or it could be anything to do with that life of schools or children. But it's worth acknowledging what it is that you struggle with, and then kind of just dealing with it because it I don't know, it just feels like you're more seen and recognised for what you're missing.

Chris: 46:15

I need your baking. And I'm so thankful I don't have to share that with many people.

Claire : 46:20

You don't like me sharing that with anyone else.

Chris: 46:24

So yeah, really happy to need you for baking

Claire : 46:26

Even though it's ruined going out for tea and cake anywhere now because we can make our own better at home. So most things now are a disappointment out and about, which is such a shame

Chris: 46:33

Manage your expectations.

Claire : 46:35

Yes, that's true, I shouldn't expect it...

Chris: 46:37

Um, so yeah, I'm so thankful. I love what you make at home. And it's, it brings me so much joy having some of what you produce in terms of cakes and things. It's so nice.

Claire : 46:47

I think food is another thing that a lot of people go to Yeah, well, there's been an upward trend in things that are again, it's nice to provide something useful. Baking became huge for me during when I was at a really bad place with my hormones before I started on my HRT and had my hysterectomy. But my mind was really not good. I found that just following a recipe and producing something at the end of it, that was lovely, that I could do on my own, that didn't involve a lot of mental kind of capacity other than following it. I think I've heard other people say the same thing with cooking. There's something about it's very healing, and it's just feels like you've done something with your day that's productive, even if you can't do anything else. So I think it really took off during those years for me, and yeah, and I'm very grateful for it cuz I really enjoy it. And I love eating my own stuff that I bake, which is nice as well, because I get to share it with you. being sold now like colouring books for adults, painting by numbers for adults, similar to recipes and baking, where it's just different people find different things relaxing, just to follow a guide and produce something without having to overly think stuff. You know, I'm I'm painting I'm colouring within the lines, whatever I'm cooking, measuring out what I'm instructed to measure, right, Yeah, when you get something at the end of it, that's creative, or that's beautiful. You get that sense of fulfilment about what you've done. It's not just like, oh, you know what I cleaned, the lounge today might look nice, but you don't get something at the end of it that brings you joy. And I think I remember, Diana, who we spoke to, who does a lot of art, on Instagram, beautiful artwork. And she said that there's something about when you're doing something creative, it allows the other side of your brain to process a lot of the things you're going through. So it's actually very good for mental health, because you're doing one thing, it allows your brain and that's the same when you do jigsaws. When you do gardening, all these things, use a certain part of your brain, which allows the other part to actually be processing a lot of the bigger things going on. So I think there's a lot of evidence that it's good for you to do these sort of creative things.

Chris: 49:10

Is it creative to then eat what's been produced?

Claire : 49:12

Yes.

Chris: 49:12

Can I process while I'm...

Claire : 49:20

Just with all that in mind, we've also got new year coming up. We're not going to be doing another episode, the two of us until into the new year, which is a ninth of January, we're going to do another one, just the two of us with some exciting new things to talk about. But looking at that and going into New Year, which I know isn't been another time for us. It's been tricky because all our years have looked the same at certain points. And it can be a bit depressing to come into one year and go out of it feeling like you're in the same place heading into another year, which looks like it'll be exactly the same. How are you feeling about New Year this year?

Chris: 49:48

Oh, dear new year! I think honestly, I don't know. I think Christmas is one thing New Year's quite different. New Year comes with a lot of very different feelings and different challenges. And over the years, the problem that I've had with new year is the tension between New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. I love New Year's Eve. I love to think big parties, celebrations, fireworks, all that sort of stuff,

Claire : 50:12

You like to think about it but we never do that.

Chris: 50:13

I love all of that. But I don't like what comes next, which is New Year's Day, which is the start of a new year's like a reset button. It's like another year. And I find that in that space, I look back and think, How far have I come? In the last year? How much has changed? How satisfied Am I with another year of my life now being over? And more often than not, in the last decade. We've got a New Year's Day in thought, oh, crumbs, we're starting a new year, that doesn't look like it's going to be any different to last year and the year before and the year before. We're just going around in this cycle of mediocrity. And so that, that I find quite painful. And that, that I know I'm coming into that place again, in the next year, I think looks exactly the same as this year. And very similar to the year before. Other than a few bits you can put in like, you know, trips and short term experiences, but on the whole. Yeah. I think I need to plan some big life change. But I'm running out of you know, the older I get, the less courage I have for that. And the less the less confidence I have to make big decisions. So yeah, I'm a bit there's a growing sense of fear that I'm losing the opportunity to make a change.

Claire : 51:32

Is that why you're working New Year's Day this year? You're avoiding it completely.

Chris: 51:35

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Tricky. New Year. Very different Christmas. What about you?

Claire : 51:41

Yeah, I can't say I've got that far yet about in thinking about it. I used to really, I think I said on the previous episode, I found new year hard harder than Christmas, in some ways, because it did just feel like I'm heading into more of the same. What was there to celebrate? Really long behind all the one ahead. But yeah, I don't know. I don't feel quite the same about it. Again, I like the idea of New Year's Eve. My idea of New Year's Eve, though. He's watching the parties on TV and the fireworks and all cosy, I used to like it, we had friends around for New Year's Eve, and we'd do something and play games and stuff and then watch see the new year and together. And we've done that for a while it's still sort of gathering people feels like quite an effort. And so it's you got to really put the effort in to organise that kind of thing, so...

Chris: 52:25

Could this be the first year of our time together, all 21 years of our time together, that we go to bed before midnight?

Claire : 52:34

No, we hardly go to bed for midnight anyway. So that would be completely pointless. We'd have to go to bed early! No, I do like seeing it in I really like marking it. I do like that kind of tradition of marking a New Year in. Because I think it's important to face it. I don't like the idea of just oh, well, let's just run away from it. I'm not that kind of person anyway, I just need to find the best way through it. So we've had some nice years, we've got purposefully got some nice food that we wanted to we and we've got some nice drinks. And we've you know, seen it in very intentionally. And now that you know you're looking at me New Year's, the Renew year point, I remember we fell out a couple of years new year would arrive and you'd be sorting stuff out. And I'd be like, Hey, you're supposed to be here with foster care. So we're supposed to look meaningfully each other as we move into the new year. No, he's still living. I do live. That's true. I live in a romance. So yeah, I think it's tricky. But it has reminded me that we did an episode last New Year called another New Year why? And I think there was some anger about the whole thing. But during that we gave out 20 questions that you can ask yourself to be intentional about the previous year, and moving into the new year. So it was things like what's the top three moments of this year for you, you know, good or bad? Name one thing this year that you'll remember for the rest of your life? What's the nicest thing someone did for you this year? What was the most challenging part? Where's your favourite place been to just be you, you know, all these kinds of things that really what you're grateful for, you know, just describe it in 10 words, all these kinds of things that can really make you think back and pull out the good and the bad to see what kind of a year you had. And I think if you don't do that sort of thing, it's very easy to let them just roll in to one. So I think maybe I might get us to sit down and actually do that again and answer those questions. Because they're great conversation starters as well.

Chris: 54:22

Well that's definitely taps into the value of remembrance, doesn't it? And we're we have so much around us. There's so much distraction and stimulation that it's so hard to remember the stuff of the last year because we're on to the next thing we want new and next. You know I often think about throughout the Old Testament guessing sort of Middle Eastern culture, autism in the Bible, that is when something significant happened with some of the characters in the Old Testament when something significant happens. They built a monument, a physical reminder that something has happened in this place. So whether it's them or others that pass by that physical place, they are reminded of what happened. This is the place where dot dot dot happen. And some people listening now will will have that they will have things that remind them of, you know, sad times of difficult times of challenge of happy times. But, yeah, I like the idea of us having more opportunity or more. Or us putting more effort into building little monuments as reminders. I like the idea, but we don't do it. But it's almost like I probably would benefit from that, if I did that, and actually had physical visual reminders to stuff that's happened.

Claire : 55:46

If people are in a similar place, they're struggling with Christmas, which is why they're listening to this. What's the one thing one piece of advice? What almost Herman, as it were, that you would want to say to them?

Chris: 55:57

Would probably be a question along the lines of what are you expecting of yourself and others? And just answer that, but that just taps into the expectation side of things, you know, are you expecting too much of yourself expecting too much of others? Ie maybe not expecting enough of yourself or of others? So maybe just to just to ask yourself that question, you know, what are you expecting of yourself and others, and see where the Enter takes you? Yeah, thanks for that. Put me on the spot there. Okay, your turn. So, you know, one piece of advice from you?

Claire : 56:33

I think one thing for me, it's been really helpful over the years, and it's still very helpful, is not to make the assumption that you're the only person not having a good time at Christmas, or to make the assumption that everyone else is having an amazing time. It's been really helpful to me with the podcast, to see that Christmas, there are a lot of people grieving, there are a lot of people lonely, even if they're in family groups. There's a lot of people sad, some people spend the whole day on their own. There's so much going on, I would almost say it's impossible for a family to pass for a Christmas to pass in any house, and not involve some kind of sadness, Fallout, frustration, depression, you know, whatever it is, every house is dealing with its battles. So it's very dangerous to assume that everyone is out there, having an amazing family Christmas all together. And that what you're going through is completely unique, and depressing. And you're alone, and nobody wants you. And you know, that's a very dangerous place to go. It's not true. It might feel that way. But I think it's really important to remember that everyone has their problems, it won't look like that on the adverts. You know that Christmas is painted with just, you know, happiness and messiness. But that's not the reality of the situation. And I think it's, yeah, it's really important to remember that because it doesn't feel quite so isolating, and lonely, really.

Chris: 58:01

Amen. I'm with you in that.

Claire : 58:03

So if you are struggling this Christmas, we have got a lot of content coming up for you on the Silent Way. Because we know that a lot of people do retreat into their family groups and parties and celebrations, and they won't have time to listen to podcasts, or maybe even record podcast episodes. And if you know that issue, that's great. And I hope that you know, the joy of this season and all the blessings that come with it is you know, a really lovely time for you. But there are going to be also a lot of people that do feel alone, whether literally or just internally, and there are people that will be quietly sad or quietly sobbing or feeling like there's no one out there for them. And these are the people that we created the site and why podcast for. So we want you to know that we're not stopping this Christmas, we're actually going to put out more content than ever. We've got something every day from Christmas day through to New Year's Eve. I've got another even more silent my episode with some lovely piano playing coming this Friday. And then we've got our episode, the two of us again on the ninth of January, which has got some very exciting things to be announced in it. And if you want to hear what they are before, then you need to join the newsletter, which is at the silent y.com/newsletter Sign up for that. And yes, we're very excited about everything that's coming. And the episode that I'm putting out on New Year's Eve. For those of you that do find new year tough is my blog, no year kn O W and that's to help you and that's to help you into the new year for anyone that finds that really tough.

Chris: 59:25

Yeah, well when all other podcasts go silent, ironically, we don't.

Claire : 59:30

Exactly. And don't forget if you want to make my Christmas and New Year a little bit more special then you can buy me a fancy tea at www.buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy, all the links for these things are in the show notes. It makes my day when I get an email saying that someone has chosen to encourage me in that way. So thank you to everyone that has to everyone does support me monthly. If you're getting anything we were being blessed from this podcast and please consider donating to it because it's basically just keeping the podcast running with the costs and everything that goes with it and any new projects that I'm developing It all goes straight into that. So thank you.

Chris: 1:00:02

It does make her day she messages me! I get a little message, or a phone call when I'm at work to say, Guess what? Someone's just bought me a fancy tea!

Claire : 1:00:10

Yeah.

Chris: 1:00:10

Or 5!

Claire : 1:00:11

Or 5

Chris: 1:00:12

Or 500?

Claire : 1:00:13

No, that's never happened one day. One day!

Chris: 1:00:15

Yeah, we're really grateful for your support. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting The Silent Why. Whether you listen through the podcast or support the social media side of things, it encourages us both. It does bring us so much joy. And of course, we want to just end by wishing you a very hope filled Christmas and of course a new year. If you do feel alone, if you are alone, you know, reach out to us. Our contact details are online, cloud happily reply emails, messages, whatever comes in. So yeah, we're thinking of you. Thank you for your support. do get in touch not sort of podcast promoted people.

Claire : 1:00:49

Too many of them

Chris: 1:00:49

Yeah, we don't want to hear from those

Claire : 1:00:51

And I do reply to them all?

Chris: 1:00:53

Of course you do. You feel needed. tapped into something? I can't see myself replying to spammers! It's just contact

Claire : 1:01:02

I feel bad for them.

Chris: 1:01:02

Yeah, well, have they got a job to do? No. Probably not. Right. Well, yeah, have a hope filled Christmas wherever you are.

Claire : 1:01:11

Hopey Christmas.

Chris: 1:01:12

Hopey Christmas.