Let's Chat... Food and grief (with Lisa Kolb Ruland)

#059. What is the relationship between food and grief?

This Let’s Chat… episode is exploring the relationship between food and grief. Does it help or hinder?Heal or hurt?

These Let’s Chat… episodes pop-up every now and then instead of one of our 101 different types of loss, as I (Claire Sandys, co-host of The Silent Why podcast) chat to a guest who has lived-experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us deal with, or prepare for, loss.

In this Let’s Chat… I’m talking to Lisa Kolb Ruland, a food editor, writer and young widow who divides her time between Washington, D.C. and Brooklyn, New York.

Lisa was a full-time food editor when she went through her own very sudden loss; in 2014 her husband Erik was in a group of explorers who died in a mountain climbing accident.

Lisa manages the food website Unpeeled Journal and the ‘Food + Grief’ project that you’ll hear us speak about. She has a unique insight into both areas from a personal and professional standpoint.

With Thanksgiving just gone and Christmas ahead I thought it was a good time to explore the relationship we can have with food when we, or others around us, are grieving.

Food plays a huge role in our lives, and therefore in our grief too, whether it’s eating alone for the first time, big family meals, taking other 'griefy' people food, under-eating, over-eating, cooking recipes that link us to those we’ve lost, or avoiding foods too connected to those we’ve lost, there’s so much to explore.

For more about Lisa visit her website:
https://www.lisakolbruland.com

Or the Unpeeled Journal: https://unpeeledjournal.com

Or her Food + Grief project: https://unpeeledjournal.com/category/features/food-grief-project

Or her amazing food photos: https://www.instagram.com/unpeeledjournal

And with each Let’s Chat… guest I'm building a tool shed (metaphorically) of tools to help you face and get through loss. So let’s see what Lisa adds to my growing list of tools.

Transcript

Claire : 0:00

Hello, and thanks for joining me for another episode of Let's Chat. I'm Claire Sandys, host editor, social media manager, blog writer, web designer, accountant and general admin support for The Silent Why podcast. In these Let's Chat episodes, I chat to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us either deal with or prepare for loss. And through them, because I wanted to capture some useful magic from each chat, a bit like the Herman's on our usual episodes, I'm building a tool shed, metaphorically of equipment to help us face and get through loss and grief. So I asked each guest at the end what tool their subject represents. So with Thanksgiving just gone and Christmas ahead, I thought it was a good time to explore the relationship between food and grief. Foods plays a huge role in our lives, and therefore in our grief, too. Whether it's eating alone for the first time, joining in with big gatherings, cooking recipes that link us to who we've lost, or avoiding foods that are too connected to who we lost, taking other people food in their grief or under eating or over eating ourselves, there is so much to explore on this subject. And in this Let's Chat, I'm talking to Lisa Kulb Ruland, who is a food writer and editor in Washington DC and Brooklyn, New York. Lisa experienced her own very sudden grief in 2014 when her husband Eric died with others in a mountain climbing accident. She's spoken and written on grief since for the BBC, Food 52, Modern Loss, the Washington Post and many more, and has a very unique take on the relationship between food and grief. She currently manages the food and cooking website Unpeeled Journal, where you can access the Food + Grief project that we speak about. So, grab a cup of tea, or coffee, or maybe a margarita, depending on what time of day it is where you are. Please forgive me for the amount of times I hit my microphone with my hand during this recording, and do enjoy the beautiful bird that starts singing in the background of Lisa towards the end, and relax with me and Lisa as we chat, food and grief.

Lisa: 2:03

My name is Lisa Ruland. So thank you so much for having me here. I am a food writer and Food Editor based in Washington, DC and Brooklyn, New York. And I was working as a Food Editor in New York back in 2014, when my husband, to whom I had been married for only about a year and a half, was killed in a mountain climbing accident, along with his entire group. And there were a lot of aspects to grief that I was, of course, as many of us are completely unprepared for and don't know how to go through. But I think as someone already in the food world, what really struck me was how my relationship with food changed and how it really wove itself into my grieving process in a lot of different ways. So these days, I am back at food writing, and have always just maintained an interest in that food and grief connection. And just try to explore that and provide resources for people who likewise might want to help someone else through food or explore their relationship with someone through food. And also, of course, just as a young widow.

Claire : 3:16

Why don't you just to give us some context on that grief, because it you know, is a particularly hard one that you've been through, just give us a synopsis of what actually happened and what you went through with Eric.

Lisa: 3:25

So he was spending the American holiday of Memorial Day in late May doing a mountain climb on Mount Rainier, which is in West Coast of the US, near outside of Seattle, Washington. And he was on a group and they never came down. And then before I got the call, apparently, various helicopters and rescue crews have been scrambled to go search for them and a debris field was located on the mountain. And then I got a call saying what happened. Unfortunately, they weren't able to recover his body, and that's true of several of the climbers. They were just lost to the avalanche and the rock fall. But I was kind of plunged into a very startling new reality. And I think that my life, as Joan Didion said, changed in the instant, to paraphrase her and it was it was awful as you might imagine, we had just kind of embarked on our married life together. And I think what was so startling for me and I think a lot of people who experience a sudden death is the the strangeness and the surrealness of it. I just remember having these thoughts about well, he can't be dead, because he still has dirty clothes in the hamper, and he can't be dead because his yoghurt is still in the refrigerator and things like that, like his towel is still hanging in the bathroom. And there was just so much physical evidence of him still being alive and living in this world, it was very hard to come to terms with the kind of like,'poof, it's over' of things.

Claire : 5:13

Was food something that you and Eric shared together? Was that something that was always there? Or is that come through more since you lost him?

Lisa: 5:19

Well, he was always a big eater and I think it was certainly a nice symbiosis because he was such an athletic guy. So I had the interest in cooking and trying new recipes, and he had a great interest in eating them and he himself always cooked. But I think food, of course, plays a role in every relationship to some degree, I think most date nights involve maybe going out to a meal or even at home, in your home life, just being able to sit across from someone at the at the kitchen table and talk about your day. And I think a lot of times the most meaningful connections we have with people in terms of talking to one another, are over a meal.

Claire : 5:59

Was that part of the loss then that was so hard, because you obviously lost someone to share that love with?

Lisa: 6:04

Absolutely. I think that for me, a couple of things happened. One, was I noticed that I just didn't care, and this was someone, you know, I was having a career in food and food writing. So this is something I, of course, felt very passionately about and loved. And I just noticed that all of a sudden, I did not care about it at all. It just seems stupid. And I think that so often in grief, I think, when you're when you're deep in it, you look around at everyone else going about their normal lives and doing normal things. And it's just kind of this, 'don't they know what happened? Don't they get it?' And nothing else seems important. And I think I definitely went through that. And physically also, I couldn't eat and I do think that grief, especially at first is an extremely physical thing that happens, I think, you know, I always think of the term 'sick with grief'. And I think yeah, that's absolutely right. I think that's literally true. Whether you're not sleeping, you can become immunocompromised, and lose your appetite, all kinds of things happen in your physical body that I think affect what you can eat, what you want to eat, how you're nourishing yourself. And I also thought that sitting across from an empty table was one of the worst parts of my day. And I had to make adjustments for that just to kind of get through that that small but significant element of my relationship.

Claire : 7:35

Yeah. So how did your relationship change with food at that point, then because like you said, you're suddenly you're cooking for one, and you're kind of sat across the table, and there's nobody there, and this is something you really loved and enjoyed. So what do you remember about your relationship with food around that time?

Lisa: 7:49

In the beginning, I could barely eat, I felt like my stomach was tied in a huge knot. I lost about, and I'm pretty small framed as it is, I lost close to 10 pounds in a few weeks, I just could not eat and I knew intellectually that I wanted to and that I should I just, it was almost like hard to get it down. And I found that very simple things like chicken and rice and broth, things that you would think to eat when you're sick, or actually the things that I was best able to tolerate at first. Which is why, you know, I think when often we bring people food, we want to bring someone food when they're grieving. And I always try to think back at that time, and rather than kind of the heavy cheesy casserole, I tend to err on the side of my grandmother's chicken soup recipe, and those kinds of things. In terms of the practical reality of having to sit across from an empty table to eat your meals, that was very hard. And I think I just tried to cope in the ways that I could and for better or worse, I just started eating my meals such as they were, maybe on the couch in front of the TV. One thing, and then when I would try to tell myself 'No, you should try to sit at the table' what I did, I started sitting in his seat, because that way I was looking across at my empty seat instead of his.

Claire : 9:15

That's just so hard.

Lisa: 9:16

Yeah.

Claire : 9:16

I remember a while ago, Chris was just away briefly and I was doing something and I got out two plates and laid them out. And then I thought 'Oh no, he's not here' and it really hit me then I thought gosh, things like that when you've lost somebody. There must be so many things that you do without thinking there's just muscle memory for two, that must just really impact and just hit that sore spot like over and over. And I'm guessing it takes a long time to get past that.

Lisa: 9:40

Completely. Completely. Grocery shopping is another And food is such a big part of everything, even even at the thing I can't even think about how many times I've welled up or funeral, you know, quite often you have food, or coping just full-on cried in the in the grocery store, going to shop and strategies, people we know, we've heard people mentioned having to, you know, buy one banana instead of four. And it's food a few times just in passing when they're talking about their these little things I think it's almost this silent, right, this silent grief that goes on in the small and subtle ways of grief. And it's often in a, they've gone to his comfort day-to-day life that can be the most impactful. And the most tragic because so often, grief does not just exist in the big eating and it's gone to that extreme, or they didn't eat for moments like the funeral, which, of course, is important, of course, grief exists, there in a big, representative way. But then you have to live the rest of your life. And the rest of our life is lived in these small day-to-day ways. And it can hit just as hard in those as well. a certain amount of time, or you know, there's these habits, it's so linked with how we cope and function. You're exploring all this with your project Food + Grief and the Unpeeled Journal all around food. So talk a little bit about that, and what that looks like. So in addition to freelance food writing that I do for various magazines, and publications, I also maintain my own cooking website called Unpeeled Journal. And within that is something called the Food + Grief project. And it was very important to me to have on there just because I wanted to, like I said, explore the dimensions of food and grief and be a resource for people, both grieving and those who want to help others in grief. And just try to find an opportunity to offer connection to people going through these moments, whether it's sitting across from an empty table, or maybe it's the holidays. And I think holidays, so often revolve around food, and especially, you know, American Thanksgiving, but also, you know, there's so many other holidays, you can just list them Christmas, what have you, are really based around food and gathering together over a big celebration meal. The problem is, I think when you're when you're experiencing loss, it's those happy, joyful moments of togetherness, which can have a tendency to actually highlight the loss even more. So I think around the holidays, that was another thing I really struggled with, especially that first year.

Claire : 12:25

In the aspect of the holiday itself, or specifically around the food and the meals?

Lisa: 12:29

All it was, it was all rough. But I think with the food and the meals, it was very strange. He died in late May. And that first season, I just kind of decided I need to just pretend Christmas doesn't exist this year, I just need to not. So I actually booked myself a trip through an adventurer company to New Zealand. And I was like, I am going to go to the opposite side of the Earth and get as far away from this as possible and just be in a different climate and just pretend it doesn't exist. Such was my dread of being at a big family, aunts, uncles, cousins, celebration, holiday meal, and watching other people in my mind, this is how it was going to be, they would all be happy and there was just going to be an emptiness, a hole. And I ended up cancelling the trip very close to it. I was like, I can't do that. I think I just need to be with family. And you know, and God bless my family everyone did their best to be there for me. But it was still very hard, because there was a very obvious rearranging of the chairs where he would have sat to kind of close that space. It was all being done very sensitively. But it was it was kind of awful. And I'm not going to sugarcoat it. And I think, ultimately, I just had to get through it until it was over. And I think that's okay. And I think trying not to force it is really important and giving yourself the grace of letting it be what it's gonna to be - good or bad.

Claire : 14:15

Yeah. Oh, it's interesting. So I was gonna say, do you recommend getting around the other side of the world? But it didn't happen so we don't know. But I don't think yeah, it's incredibly difficult, you know, how do you get it right? How do other people get it? Right? The more I'm looking into this and trying to work out how people can help other people when they're grieving. The more I'm realising it's nearly impossible because it depends on the person, it depends on the person that they've lost it, you know, they might very sensitively be kind of highlighting the loss or trying to cover the loss for you or acknowledging it... doesn't matter how you do it, the loss is still there, it's still as painful. It's almost impossible to get to get that right.

Lisa: 14:47

It really is. So I just tried to.... you know, even as someone who's gone through intense grief, I know I've said bonehead things to people and said the wrong things! I know I did. It's too... it's very complicated. You know, you want to do the right thing. So I just always centre myself, you know, they mean well, they mean well, and I just, I took such such love from that, you know, and I, but I will say if you're if you want to help someone get through the grieving process and maybe want to offer something in the food realm, I would say a couple of things. There's, of course, bringing food over to someone, which is incredibly gracious thing to do. I would also say, what often happens is after the funeral after the memorial service, and everyone kind of goes back to their normal life, it hits you that you don't have a normal to go back to. And there you are left to the rest of your life. And it can feel extraordinarily empty. And so one thing I remember very specifically was wishing that someone would just ask me over to just some boring family Wednesday dinner, I didn't care, it could have been like a frozen bag of vegetables and I don't care, I just, I wish that I was alone less. Or someone even just to say 'you want to go grab a bite next week?' Something small, it makes a big difference. It doesn't have to be a big special occasion thing is the little.

Claire : 16:27

Yeah. It's interesting made me think that I've heard it, I've heard that in the childless community as well, a couple saying they just want to be involved in other people's family life. And you think that might happen, but you don't really get invited. And I could see why. But then I've also heard people with lots of kids say, no one invites us anymore, because we've got so many children. And I've heard single people say it. This is something we should be doing more as a world, I suppose, just inviting others into our houses for meals and those everyday things. And I think people don't do it because they're frightened that they're exploiting what they have and what you don't have. But actually, it's not really how it is. And you can always say no, it's just nice to be asked.

Lisa: 17:02

Exactly. Put it in that person's court, you know, but at least put it out there. Because even asking makes you feel good that you're being thought of.

Claire : 17:09

Yeah, I mean, you must have heard lots of stories with this food and grief project about how people have dealt with food good or bad. When it comes to grieving, what are some of the examples of things people tend to do, or you've heard people do.

Lisa: 17:20

I think that food does a couple of things. One, it can link us, as we were just talking about, to our present friends and family and just the importance of continuing to share meals with people, sharing meals or offering a food or even just a coffee or a snack with someone who is going through loss can be so meaningful. And I think it's really important to keep those current connections, those living connections going with the person experiencing loss. I also think that food can play a great role and does play a great role in connecting us with people who have died. And I think that I've just heard so many people who will will write to me and so on just saying just, 'oh, you know, I have this cookie recipe that I make it every year because it reminds me of how I would how I would make it with my mom when I was young', or 'this was so-and-so's favourite favourite dinner. And every time I make it, I think of them'. And I think that in that way, we have powerful bonds and connections through food and food memories. And likewise, though, I would say that there are certain dishes, that maybe the connection is so strong, you can't make them. And I certainly have a couple of recipes like that, that I just have not made, I don't know that I will ever make them. Because I think I would just get very, very sad. And I don't really feel the need to force myself into a hard place if if I don't want to. So I just kind of treasure those in my memory. Those are recipes that I love, but I don't think I can make them.

Claire : 19:01

No, I understand that. I mean, I'm not someone who's particularly great with cooking food. I like baking but not so good on the meal side of things. But when my grandma died I got her box of recipes with all these little cards in, mostly wartime like really simple recipes. And she used to make something that I think we would now call Tiffin but she called it Gunge. And it was just this chocolate and digestive mix up thing. I make it every week at the moment and have a slice after my lunch and Chris, my husband tells me it's not that great. I think it's the most amazing thing there is and every time I eat it, I don't know if it is what it is or it's the nostalgia of taking me back to being with her. I don't know what it is, but there's definitely something attached to this, that's just like a comfort thing that I really enjoy.

Lisa: 19:44

Yeah. Oh, well, I think that's right. You're tasting the memories and I think that you that is a real thing and it really does imbue a recipe with so much and also don't you think there's something with an old recipe card to seeing the handwriting.

Claire : 20:00

Oh yeah, definitely.

Lisa: 20:01

Well, there's something there with that. And I think like having this tangible thing that like she touched this, she wrote this. I think that's incredibly special to have. I do.

Claire : 20:12

Especially with cooking because you quite often get smudges of like stuff on it that they were cooking with.

Lisa: 20:15

Don't you love that? Or like a little splatter of grease or whatever it is. It's very real. It's a real it's a big link I think. So. Yeah. We don't so much have a digestive biscuit culture here.

Claire : 20:29

I think you have like, do you have like Graham Crackers? Gram crackers? or something?

Lisa: 20:36

I get the sense that that is the closest thing. But I think the Graham Crackers come in a big rectangular sheet. But a digestive biscuit is kind of thicker and round, right?

Claire : 20:45

Yep. Yep. Just like a classic round just a normal round biscuit. But yeah, I've done cheese cake recipes and things and they'll just like, you know, these Graham Crackers. I'm like, what is that?! I think I just put digestives in.

Lisa: 20:56

I think that's right. Okay. There's also a very special relationship with chocolate over in Britain as well.

Claire : 21:03

Yes, I can't believe you guys, when we came to America for a few weeks, Cadbury's was just almost nowhere to be found, which was just absolutely shocking to me, because I thought it was a worldwide thing almost. But yeah, no, you don't really have the same kind of chocolate over there at all.

Lisa: 21:17

It's very, it's very different. Chocolate culture, I think, so yeah.

Claire : 21:21

We do have a lot of chocolate. So what are the kind of positive and negative aspects of food do you think? When it comes to grief? How can it be good and bad?

Lisa: 21:30

it's interesting, it's like almost like different sides of the same coin. Because the things that can make it good can also make it bad at depending on how you play it. So one thing I think can be very good, is, like we were talking about cooking a recipe that links you to that person. And on the other side of that is, well, maybe that would actually be extremely triggering. Maybe it's just too sad right now. So I think the key to all of that is to just be very conscious of what you need, what's right for you, and not forcing yourself to do anything that you feel like you should do. Because I think there's a lot of that, like, well, I should make myself do this almost kind of like powering through, or something like that. And I just don't think that's necessary. And in fact, I think it could be bad, the only thing I think you should try to power through a little bit, is not totally succumbing to chips, or crisps for dinner, and that kind of thing, but rather actually thinking, you know, I, I know, it's good for my body to, I need to take care of it a little bit, you know, not necessarily forcing yourself to do a green juice cleanse, but something just being aware of, of that aspect of of nourishing your body and taking care of it in that way. It's a very fragile time. And it's an extremely difficult time. So I do think that there's something important about trying to keep yourself nourished just for your physical welfare. You know, but of course, treating yourself a little bit too, because you have to find joy where you can. So I think sometimes a little bowl of ice cream. Sure. I mean, I think that's just a wonderful thing.

Claire : 23:09

Yeah, I can imagine it must be very easy just to constantly just keep reaching for the, for the freezer food, and not really preparing anything fresh because of the effort. Yeah, but then I saw, I was watching sweet magnolias on Netflix recently. And in that the chef says that he goes through this horrific bereavement of his wife and daughter. And then he said that it was going back into a kitchen and following a recipe where it just told him step by step what to do that helped him get out of it. And I just thought it's incredible how sometimes just having these things that you can focus on and do and someone else is telling you what to do, you haven't got to think about it can actually be really helpful. Have you found people have found that with food and preparing it?

Lisa: 23:48

Yeah, I actually was interesting, because, you know, as someone who I was, you know, valedictorian of my pastry school class when I went to pastry school, so you know, pretty confident in the kitchen and baking. I could not get a recipe right? At first, you would think it would be no problem, but even easy things. I just was so absent minded, or I would forget an ingredient or forget to set the oven timer, or whatever it was, like I just undercooking basic things, and I just would keep messing up. And I was like, What is going on? I made this a million times. Well, of course, like I'm grieving. I'm completely, you know, not myself. My brain is not functioning at full strength here right now. And so that was something I definitely noticed. But it was something that I remember coming back as well and being really happy when I finally was able to make a roast chicken again, and it was good, and it made me feel just really happy. I felt like it was some kind of milestone to some extent, but of course grief isn't linear. It's definitely that roller coaster. So for every good day A like, look at me, I made a roast chicken and I didn't go through half a box of Kleenex, you know, today, for every day like that, then you know, then there's maybe another down one. And it's all it's all part of the journey. It's all part of the journey. And that's totally normal.

Claire : 25:16

Have you had any negative reactions to everything you've been doing with food and grief?

Lisa: 25:23

Yeah, you know, I think a one one thing I've had to be conscious of no one's like said anything. It's just something that I am conscious of, is not I think a lot of people want to know, what should I bring to someone who's grieving? I want to bring a meal, what should I bring. And I feel like that can be a little tricky, because it's all what you're bringing is carrying. And what you're bringing is love. So in that way, the, you know, seven layer being dip casserole or whatever, which, maybe, maybe it will be wonderful. But maybe it will be a little heavy, maybe it will be a little off in terms of the practical helpfulness of that meal. At the same time, it's given with love. So like, how do you tell someone not to bring it if that's what they want to make you. So that can be a little tricky there. So I think to preempt that, I think it's okay, to reach out to the person and maybe give a couple options, that's what I tend to do is say, you know, I'm going to bring you a meal on Friday, what sounds good, and then just maybe give one or two or three options? Because I think if you just say something very vague, like, what do you want to eat? That's a really hard question for someone because they maybe don't want to put a burden on you. But also there, they might not even be able to think straight enough to even know what they want to eat. So I think trying to kind of like narrow it down a little might be a helpful direction. And when in doubt, like make sure it's, you know, flavorful and has and have some nutrition.

Claire : 26:59

And what are some of the positive responses you've had to putting these two things together? Because you you don't hear them talked about, like together specifically like that very often?

Lisa: 27:06

No, I think it's been really, really great to hear people talking about how I think the thing that means the most to me, or one of the things that means the most to me, is hearing from people who are just kind of like, 'yes, that was me too,'yes, I get that'. And just being able to know that someone could relate to the grocery store, crying when you have to,'oh, wait, I don't need this much chicken anymore', you know, and that sets off a whole thing, or sitting across from from the empty table, learning how to cook for one. It's very loaded. But it's such a, it's a very erm solitary part of grief. It's kind of an invisible part of grief, I think, especially as a widowed person who is having all of these maybe formerly full family meals, or dinners with their partner and now isn't, that's not something that other people would necessarily bear witness to. But it's still going on. And I think for someone to kind of be able to go through that as well and get it, has been really important and I'm very glad to have been able to share that experience out loud. For others to likewise relate to.

Claire : 28:24

On your website with your food and grief, you write'food', and then you have the plus symbol, and then 'grief'. So I'm wondering if food plus grief equals anything specific for you?

Lisa: 28:34

That is such a good question. And it's so interesting, because for however long, I've actually been writing that phrase out, it's never, in my mind, I always hear it as'and' and so hearing it as a'plus', this is like kind of like this very interesting light bulb thing that's turning over in my mind, as I'm hearing this. And so I think, you know, food plus grief, I want to say just equals reality. And I think there are very few things that are certain in this life and the expression is, you know, death and taxes. But I would also add food, we all need to eat. We all do eat. I think we all love to eat and find bonds with others through food. And so, of course, when death happens, food will continue to play a role and maybe that role will shape shift a little bit maybe it'll come back, but it's going to be there.

Claire : 29:39

I think your debt and taxes is a is a great analogy because the two things you're gonna get in life are food and grief. It's the same he got it wrong. He should have done death, taxes, food and grief.

Lisa: 29:47

Yes. Could be my spin off maybe I'll just call it that.

Claire : 29:51

So we've got like Christmas and Thanksgiving and you know a lot of big seasons on the horizon coming very soon. Have you got anything in particular that you would just point out or recommend or want to highlight for people that are maybe sort of fresh into grief this year, and it might be their first one that they're going into?

Lisa: 30:11

Well, the advice that I got, and the advice that I remember is to just take it hour by hour, or even minute by minute, until you get through it. Try not to set an expectation for the day of what you want it to be what you expect it to be, but rather just let it be. I think that as someone who was maybe going to be at a meal with a person going through grief for the first time, don't be afraid to mention it. I think so often, people don't want to bring it up because they think, 'Oh, well, maybe he or she is having a good day. Maybe he or she doesn't want to talk about it'. But I promise you, that person is always on their mind. It's already there. And I think better to say something like, I don't know, because you don't want to presume to know what someone's feeling. So you say,'I don't know what today is like for you. I imagine that it could be complicated, I just want to let you know that I see you, I know you might be going through something today, I'm here' and just kind of not trying to fix it, not trying to make it good, not making it better. But just letting that person be seen, you know, that person that they lost is already on their mind, mentioning it won't make it occur to them. And I would just wish people you know, as they're going through the, through the holiday season in particular, and just throughout their normal day to day, you know, just use use food as whatever tool you need it to be. And as with all aspects of grief, there's not really a set right or wrong so often, there's only paying attention to yourself and what you need. So if you need to make a recipe or bring a recipe that connects you to someone, then do that, but don't force it. And if you need to not do it, then that's what you need to do. And just be conscious of you and take care of yourself that I'll be thinking of everyone, as I always do, especially around the holidays.

Claire : 32:22

Quite a lot of what we talk about on these conversations is whether we can prepare ourselves for losses or things we can do to prepare. Was there anything that you knew about food before you went through Eric's death that helped you afterwards with your relationship with it?

Lisa: 32:34

Yeah, well, one thing I did was I was so used to pitching in and helping cook and prepare the like holiday meals or make all the pies or whatever. And I knew that I was not going to be able to do that. And I wanted to, but I had to just kind of give myself a pass. And just kind of let that be okay for other people to do a little more work. As much as I hate the idea of not being able to help or contribute, I did just kind of say, 'You know what, the hell with this, like it probably will burn anyway, knowing my current track record. So I'm just gonna say that this is what I need right now from them'. I was already someone who tried to eat a balanced diet and tried to get home home cooked food whenever I could. So that is kind of what I wanted to get back to. But I think that in terms of actively trying to consciously eat very healthy, that was just a result of the fact that I just got a lot of colds I just was kind of sick a lot. I just felt weak a lot. And then I actually dug into that a little bit just researching and it is really true that you know, your your body does in fact become immunocompromised, your memory does, in fact, get affected and the physicality of grief is a very real thing. So I think that was very stark to me.

Claire : 34:06

So if people want to head on over to the Unpeeled Journal, what would they find there? What sort of resources have you got them? And who are they for?

Lisa: 34:13

So you can tab on over to the 'food + grief' section and you'll find a number of resources. I have recipe ideas for bringing food to someone experiencing grief, but also recipe ideas for people who maybe are going through grief and need to cook for themselves and aren't looking to do you know, braised short ribs for eight. They just need something very simple but also like tasty and nourishing, and just need some ideas. You know, you kind of want someone to kind of do the work of thinking for you. You don't have to figure it out. So I try to put some recipes there that would be easy. And also I have a big list of running list of food and grief resources, including other articles that people have written, podcast episodes, other media where people have discussed this topic, just so maybe people can find something that's helpful to them or speaks to their experience.

Claire : 35:09

We talk about having useful tools to help people sort of prepare for loss. So if I went to the shed and I had to pick out a tool that represented food and grief or the relationship it has, what sort of tool do you think that would be?

Lisa: 35:20

So I am remarried and I actually went into my husband's tool shed and physically looked around in preparation for it.

Claire : 35:29

I'm impressed.

Lisa: 35:29

I was like, well gosh, this is a deep metaphor. I have to see what he has... what does he have down in here? Do I even know of any tools? That's his purview? But I think what I've found is a little shovel, and I'm gonna say a little shovel, because I think that it's on the spectrum of the shape of the spoon, I'm gonna say.

Claire : 35:48

Nice.

Lisa: 35:49

So there's that utensil-esque, although vastly disproportionate of course. But I also think when I think about how my relationship with grief and food has been, it was definitely, you know, digging a hole, and then digging myself out again. And I think that was the whole process for me feeling like you're in a very big hole, and then slowly, slowly, digging your self out of it, and then I think food played a role throughout that entire thing.

Claire : 36:28

A little shovel, another very useful tool, you can never have too many of those. And I'm sure we've all had moments in our grief when we just really wanted to use a little shovel instead of a spoon in our favourite naughty food. If you want to find out more about Lisa, the Unpeeled Journal or her Food + Grief' project, you can check out www.lisakolbruland.com or www.unpeeledjournal.com, or find her amazing food photos on Instagram @unpeeledjournal. And I'll put links to all those in the show notes. We're also planning another episode with Lisa in the new year to talk to her in more detail on The Silent Why about the loss of her husband. I also really want to come up with a way of illustrating this shed that I'm building and I was thinking about putting out a call to anyone that's arty in any way at all, be it paint pen, pencil, crochet, scrapbooking, cutting and sticking, woodwork, felt, steel or glass to join me every month to submit their interpretation of the latest tool. So I could put them all on The Silent Why social media and website. If this is something you think you'd like to see, then let me know and I'll put a shout out to everyone arty. Lisa, thank you so much for this chat. And thank you for listening to The Silent Why. If you've got a subject you'd like me to chat to an expert on. Please get in touch via social media, or the website or via email thesilentwhy@gmail.com and let's chat...