The Silent Why: finding hope in grief and loss

Loss 37/101: Loss through sexual grief: Edy Nathan

November 01, 2022 Chris Sandys, Claire Sandys, Edy Nathan Episode 56
The Silent Why: finding hope in grief and loss
Loss 37/101: Loss through sexual grief: Edy Nathan
Show Notes Transcript

#056. Grief can be hard enough to talk about, but throw 'sex' into the same sentence and you've got the makings of an intriguing conversation that many people will willingly side-step. But it's a conversation that needs to be had.

So what is 'sexual grief'? And how do we know if we've encountered it?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around loss and grief and to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss.

Loss #37 of 101 - Loss through sexual grief

Meet Edy Nathan, a licensed therapist, certified sex therapist, public speaker and published author. Edy is currently working on her second book, based around the area of sexual grief which is an area not openly discussed.

We explore it in this conversation, as well as who it impacts and why it's important.

It's important to note sexual grief doesn't just relate to the act of sex or sexual abuse, it also includes the loss of touch and physical contact (something Covid has greatly affected), the loss of affection which every human needs from birth, and also incorporates damaging belief systems that say you don’t deserve these things, or you were unwanted as a child, or detached from parents.

Edy speaks as an expert but also someone who has experience, having been the victim of sexual abuse as a child and also having watched cancer take the life of her partner, Paul, when she was in her twenties.

For more about Edy and her book, 'It’s Grief: The Dance of Self-Discovery Through Trauma and Loss', visit: https://edynathan.com/

Support the show

-----

thesilentwhy.com | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn

Support the show through buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy or by buying a Herman: thehermancompany.com

What's a Herman? - thesilentwhy.com/herman

Sign-up to my mailing list (only used for sharing news occasionally!): thesilentwhy.com/newsletter

How to talk to the grieving: thesilentwhy.com/post/howtotalktothegrieving

Review the show: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Goodpods

Episode transcripts: thesilentwhy.buzzsprout.com

Thank you for listening.

Edy:

Hi, my name is Edy Nathan and I'm here to talk about the losses incurred through sexual grief.

Claire:

Welcome to The Silent Why podcast on a mission to find 101 different types of loss and to hear from those who have experienced them. I'm Claire.

Chris:

I'm Chris and in this episode we're broaching two topics many don't find it easy to talk about - grief, and well to make it even more interesting, we're throwing in sex.

Claire:

Not literally, of course.

Chris:

Eugh.

Edy:

You know, it's so interesting sex, death and money. Those are the three topics people do not want to talk about.

Claire:

Well, let's change that. Because in this chat, you're going to hear from Edy Nathan,licenced therapist, certified sex therapist, public speaker and published author.

Chris:

Edy is dedicated to helping people understand their grief, cope with any fear and struggles holding them back, and to guide them towards a fuller life. And one area she's passionate about drawing attention to is sexual grief.

Edy:

It is the loss of a sexual self because of a sexually traumatic event, and that event is not necessarily sexual abuse.

Chris:

She'll explain how this doesn't just relate to the act of sex, it can also include the loss of touch, physical contact and the affection that every human needs from birth, for example, have you noticed less physical contact with people since COVID? How do you feel about that?

Claire:

And not just the loss of these things, but also the belief that you don't deserve them, or feeling unwanted as a child, or detached from parents, which can lead to cognitive complications in your identity and belief systems. Edy's also experienced grief herself on a number of levels, including sexual abuse when she was nine. But her tipping point with it was when she lost her partner, Paul, to cancer when she was 27 years old.

Edy:

I wouldn't have been able to write the 'It's Grief' book and I wouldn't be who I am, had I not had all the experiences that led up to it. Would I wish it on anyone? No, never. Am I happy about it? No. And yet I carry with me a sensitivity for the pain of others because of my pain.

Chris:

And working in this area. Edy's also found an unexpected alliance with grief as it continues to reveal new lessons along the way.

Edy:

But one thing I can say is that, in many ways, grief and that experience has served as an unexpected ally. In that it continues to keep me exploring, curious and innovative in how I'm going to care for the self.

Chris:

We begin this conversation by asking Edy to tell us a bit more about her life and what a normal week looks like for her.

Edy:

Hi, my name is Edy Nathan, and I'm recording out of New York City right now. However, my home is in Massachusetts, in the mountains, where there are lakes and streams, and it's really quite lovely. I work with trauma and grief and burnout. And I help people meet their worst selves so they can get to their best selves. A common week, I never know exactly what to expect, because I never know really, who I'm going to be meeting even though I meet the same people every week, as a clinician, we all come in with different stuff, depending on how much we've grown or what insight we've gained. I am very much part of the grief conversation because people don't even realise that they're grieving. Because the way that grief has usually been defined, is you're grieving the loss of someone, not necessarily the grief or the loss of something. And I look to exploring the losses that we incur of the self and the losses that we incur developmentally for things that we've missed, and we only realise we've missed them because we see something in someone else that we yearn for.

Chris:

Why did you get into this whole area? What was it that inspired and motivated you and lead you into this area?

Edy:

There is a tipping point where there's a calling, probably from the time I was really young. And yet truly the tipping point was the loss of my partner when I was 27. And I was actually getting a master's degree to become a trainer in the corporate world. And he died of cancer and I was 27 and I had nowhere to go. To grieve the groups that I went to had very wise older folks who had lost long term partnerships. And their messaging to me was 'Don't worry, you're young, you'll find somebody' which did me no good whatsoever. It was upon the loss of Paul that I realised, okay, maybe I need to rethink my life and rethink what I'm doing and how I'm doing it and why I'm doing it. And then of course, what happens often with one trauma or loss is that previous losses that were not dealt with start to manifest. And the realisation that, ah, this is not just the grief, because I lost my partner. This is grief for the things that I never dealt with, that I didn't want to look at, that I didn't want to even admit, or that had been buried so deeply, that I might have acted out on them, but never really chose to walk with them. And so my practice, as a clinician in private practice, as an author of one book, and now another going into another book, is about helping people find their way to a language of discovery. And instead of keeping the secrets of their lives to themselves, that they allow the secrets to dance with them.

Chris:

And you said, recognising, losing some one and losing some thing can be different. So thank you for sharing that about Paul, how was that widen into recognising the importance that there are things that we can lose and need to grieve and identify as well?

Edy:

With my childhood, the way that it was evolving, the loss of the kind of love that you might need versus the love you were given, I was certainly loved and cared for, and all of my needs were met, but the needs of the soul and the psyche may not be met, based on what you need, but based on what others around you need. And so it can be the loss of a primary parent that might be there, but can't be there in the way that is needed. I'm a sexual abuse dancer, and I was young, I was nine. And my response to that, in many ways was to put it away, to be a bad girl, to gain weight and be incredibly overweight for a fair amount of my youth, which many people have happened to them. And so that's grief. That's a loss of the self. That's a loss of being able to explore the world as a young person, because it's shrouded with the pain of having things taken away from you, like an innocence, if you will, that one can grieve. And that's a thing. During 911, I ran into the city here in New York, and I was one of I guess, a first responder, and I actually ended up down in the pits at the World Trade Centre three days in. And so what I learned then about myself, is that when there is high trauma, when people are going through shock and disarray, that I have a way to ground myself, which is not unusual for many people who have been traumatised, they, you know, get them into an intensely traumatic environment, and they can pretty much thrive, get them into normal, quiet and things break down. So, as you can imagine, there was a lot of grief within our city and within our state and really around the world. The grief that I work with is a grief that focuses on everything from the body, and I'm now working on a book called Sexual Grief. And my first book was just about grief itself. I focus on on traumatic grief. I've focus on burn out grief, utilising the aspects of the mind, the body, the psyche, the soul, and spirituality as a kind of a breakdown of the different baskets that we carry, in that we must look at, be with in the journey of grief.

Chris:

Part of a podcast mission to explore 101 different types of loss, we're really interested to speak to you about the one area you have mentioned about sexual grief because we've not come close to that as yet. So we're really fascinated to explore that a bit further with your help. What is sexual grief?

Edy:

Thank you for the question, because that's the right question. What is it? It is the loss of the sexual self because of a sexually traumatic event, and that event is not necessarily sexual abuse. It can be on a developmental timeline, the child that is born because of an unwanted pregnancy and knowing that the mother did not want them. And so that lost sense of self or having a primary parent not adore you, or love you and the cognitive issues that happen. And if you've have low self esteem, then that also filters through to the body. If you are toward the middle age, and you are facing illness, and you were usually a sexual person, and now that is taken away from you, their sexual grief, our sexuality is one of the richest ways that we get to pleasure. And it's not, it can be sexy pleasure, but it's something that is very primal within us to be touched, can be sexually pleasurable, if babies are not touched, and if people are not touched, we fail to thrive, not talking about sex per se, but just one's ability to be touched or held or have desire. And that sexual grief is the loss of those things, or the loss of believing that you deserve them, or that you can access them, or that somehow they've been taken away from you like the innocence that I was telling you about and how my own innocence was taken away, because of my experience.

Claire:

Two subjects, their grief and sex, they're two things that people, even separately, don't want to talk about very openly and honestly, they get talked about, but not often very openly. So when you put the two together, you've got a recipe for something, I'm guessing that people just don't want to go near in conversation very often. Why do you think that is? What is it about that that makes it so sort of almost untouchable for people?

Edy:

You know, it's so interesting sex, death and money, those are the three topics people do not want to talk about. It's scary because, putting money aside because money is really how we exist in our in our world right now, sex and grief, its loss. We have a healthy denial of loss, because if frankly, if we were thinking about loss all the time, I think we'd be nuts, we'd be nuttier than we already are. And we're all a little crazy, thankfully. Okay, but we need we so need that denial, our own sexuality, depending on religious structures, which is also another area that I look at, which are, you know, highly religious, conservative structures where the mandates are set forth, where pleasure is not part of it. Part of of partnership, and so much is taken away. So we're uncomfortable because we've been taught to be uncomfortable, we've been taught that certain pleasures should not be experienced, we've been taught that now, you know, touching someone on the back, or having a long hug should be suspect, perhaps, our sexual selves, we don't want to explore, it terrifies us. So often, we men and women will get into very much controlling environments around their own sexuality. And we fear it. And maybe we fear it, because we go to places that open us up to experiencing ourselves in very different ways.

Claire:

I can already see the title of the episode coming up, and I can almost feel the reactions from some people, like you said, that have been brought up, especially the generation above us perhaps, where it's just not something that you talk about. It's personal, it's private, we don't need to share that kind of stuff. And unfortunately, when something goes wrong in that area, that's what's made it so hard to open up about because you're fighting this voice that says 'don't talk about it'.

Edy:

That's so right. Yes. So thankfully, more and more, I don't know if this is the case where you are, but here in the States, you know, we get a lot of pharmaceutical commercials. And those pharmaceutical commercials are often for men around ED (Erectile Dysfunction). What they're not talking about, though, is that often there's an emotional component, and men are grieving. I go on to a lot of men's sites where they're talking about,'well, what's the point? I don't care, I might as well just die if I can't do this'. We haven't been talking about it, but I think we are emerging. I think that on one hand, we've got Roe v. Wade here in the States and women are having to deal with that, but on the other hand, they're talking about it and they're talking about how their freedoms, how important their freedoms are, and they're talking about it in ways that they haven't been talking about it, I think, in the past. So we have an opportunity now with this conversation to, especially during the pandemic, yes, it's the generation ahead of us and yet, I think it's also now because of the pandemic and because people in their 20s and 30s were this was would be a time of exploration, this would be a time of opening up and dating, and there is sexual grief because they haven't had the time to explore and now they're afraid to kiss. And then you add a cell phone or computer, an iPad to all that mix and not only are they not knowing how to relate, but it's all here. And so they're not even getting the eye contact. And there is sexual grief, people go out, and they go out in groups. And people have lost whatever ability they had two and a half years ago, to connect. The other day I was at a store and I was talking to this young, beautiful woman and she's like, 'I just moved to New York a year ago and the pandemic was terrible'. And she said,'and now I find that all I want to do is just go back to my apartment, I don't even know how to relate'. And we started to talk about sexual grief. And what was interesting is that her boss, also around her age walked in and said, 'oh are you writing a book? What is it about?' And I said 'sexual grief', and she turned and she walked away. While this other girl, she wanted the information and so I think you're going to have both, but it's going to be young women like her who say, 'I don't want to live this way. I know something's wrong. I know that I shouldn't be wanting to just go back to my apartment, I should be wanting to socialise. I feel like I don't even know how.'

Chris:

I think listening to you talk, I think a lot about the pandemic and the damage that's done in terms of physical contact. Even in my in my job, I meet a lot of people, and more often than not, now there's there's no physical greeting, there's no handshake, just because you can feel that pressure on both sides. I'm not sure where that person's at so I'll play it safe by not touching them, you know, unless you feel like okay, I'll just ask you, shall we handshake touch elbows, whatever, can I give you a hug? You know, I was raised to you know how to formally greet someone to know how to touch how to make contact. And it's... I love physical contact. And it's it feels such a shame now that you've when we see, not our closest friends, but other friends, distant members of the family, perhaps, that there's that coldness that remains in a relationship if you don't start with some physical touch, physical contact, a greeting. So it concerns me.

Edy:

So may I asked you, do you yearn for it, for that?

Chris:

Yeah, yeah, I miss it a lot.

Edy:

Okay, that's grief, a yearning, a hunger that is unmet. And then the sadness of the loss of that, which was so connecting. That's grief. Emotion.

Chris:

Yeah, for sure. It feeds into wider topics as well of division between people between communities that, you know, it's just one more step along that road of, I'm just gonna stay at home, I'm not going to join the public debate, I'm not going to raise my voice, I'm not going to have any connection, because it just ends in tears, so I'm just going to stay physically disconnected and mentally disconnected, which is obviously never going to be a good road to go down, we do well, when we're connected, and we're in community.

Claire:

How do you think this sort of grief differs from the the more 'obvious' (in inverted commas) grief of losing somebody and a bereavement? Which is what we tend to come up against a lot, a lot of people think'loss', that's when I lose so-and-so. How does it differ in that respect?

Edy:

So when you lose a loved one, you can't bring them back. With sexual grief, you have an opportunity to do a reframe, to do a redo. You can create the person you want to be, you can understand all of those aspects of you, if you can remain curious. So it's not lost forever. In terms of the loss of a loved one. I keep Paul alive with me in the work I do, and he helps me continue to pay it forward, and he taught me about love.

Chris:

You referred as well to experiences when you were nine years old, that were unwelcome, unwanted, are they experiences that you've been able to sort of repair? Or has there been permanent loss through that, that you're still in the process of trying to work out?

Edy:

You know, it's such a great question, because it's got so much depth to it. And the answer is yes, and no. Because as we grow, and as we grow up, and as we form new relationships, different parts of that period, will evolve and come up. And so what I think I've resolved or met face on, I'm then introduced and prompted to revisit because something else came up that I could not have accounted for. And so it is an ongoing process. But one thing I can say is that in many ways, grief, and that experience, has served as an unexpected ally, in that it continues to keep me exploring curious and innovative in how I'm going to care for the self.

Chris:

And then you wrap that up, presumably in the word dance, which I've used a few times, that becomes the dance.

Edy:

That's right. And the dance, I use that metaphor in my first book actually is part of the title: 'It's grief, the dance of self discovery through trauma and loss', because I see it as a partnership, when people are like, 'how can you use dance?!' it is a partnership, the minute you keep it away, and you say, 'No, I'm not going to see you'. The minute you do that, then it just gets bigger and I don't want it to get bigger! If you dance with it, you say 'I see it', and then it doesn't hold you hostage. And that is another part of the sexual grief piece is that it can very much hold you hostage. And part of what I am talking about in the book is how to become a hostage negotiator against the hostage taker.

Claire:

So what does it look like to be held hostage? Because I think some people can imagine bereavement and things they think you know, it's gonna be a lot of crying, I'll lose my appetite, you can sort of roughly picture that if you haven't been through it, but what does this look like?

Edy:

It looks like all of a sudden, you have memory pop-ups that are uninvited and actually just halt you completely. But you know what, it also happens with losses, you know, all of a sudden you someone walks by you and they are wearing the perfume or cologne of your loved one and it just stops you. And so, you know, I call them 'pop-up memories', and they come at usually often at the worst possible time, it's when you start to have anxiety and your heart begins to beat. And it comes out of nowhere. And all of a sudden you have a memory or you have some experience in your body that reminds you of that time of sexual grief. Or maybe you wanted to be intimate, and one of the things again, that I am discussing in the book that is yet to be published, where young boy, young man really, you know, has his first sexual experience, and he's 15-16-17 years old, except it doesn't go well. Let's say the partner he's with goes back to the school, and tells everybody and he is forever humiliated. And that experience then takes him into his adult life, he feels he can't function, he feels what's the point and he can't get rid of it, and every time he tries to become intimate, he's got the laughter or the teasing in his. And that happened, that fragment that moment in time could not be pushed away. And so it is being able to say 'I am not that boy', and that whatever partner he was with was cruel, and to then stop being cruel to himself. And by getting to know his body, and by saying, 'I yearn to have a different relationship with that story. So I'm gonna redo it in my mind, I'm going to rewrite it in such a way that it can teach me that I'm still alive, and that I am not going to be held hostage, because I'm going to listen to it, I'm going to have empathy for it. I'm going to have a report with it. And then I'm going to start to change the behaviour'.

Claire:

I'm guessing this is something that the media doesn't really help with in, and television?

Edy:

Oh, you think?!

Claire:

I can imagine you throwing things at the television every now and then when the sex scene that just goes really smoothly, or it goes badly, and it's made a joke of.

Edy:

That's right.

Claire:

So that there's never a serious kind of take on what it actually looks like in real life.

Edy:

That's right.

Claire:

It goes against all the work you're trying to do.

Edy:

You know, I also talk a lot about what I call the PLANK, which is really finding a way to balance yourself. But the 'K' in the plank is the knowing and believing gap. You know what you need to do, but you don't believe it's going to help. And so part of this whole sexual grief piece is saying, 'okay, so this is what I know, now how am I going to get to believe that learning how to become a hostage negotiator is actually going to help me?' Well, the first step, again, is to be curious enough about the cure. And it's not really a cure, but it's that dance. It's listening because denying it or pushing it away, only makes it get bigger. Our brain is also one of our greatest allies. And how can we understand that the amygdala which is a place in the brain that talks about feelings and emotions is also the place where we get our alarms. It's where the alarm 'this is dangerous, you'd better get out, you'd better leave', sounds off. If you can start to reregulate your body, which can be done through breathing, which can be done through yoga, which can be done through self talk, which can be done through changing the messaging that we're giving ourselves, for example, that young man that I was talking about, 'so I can never be a sexual person. I'm a failure, I'm a failure and all things', okay, you had one moment in time where something didn't work the way you wanted it to, that doesn't set you up for failing all of the time. So what would success look like? So it's having the relationship really, with the self.

Chris:

Are there areas of sexual grief that may be more misunderstood than other areas?

Edy:

Yes, of course, we can have a momentary experience and think, 'Oh, this is great. I'm, I'm healed. Because I just had this really delicious experience with another human being. And I was actually present, I could see them and I felt seen by them'. And it might have just been, you know, when I say'sexual experience', I don't know what that means, it could be a kiss, okay? So I'm not wanting to get graphic here, it could also be just that you went on a date, because that could be something too. Sexual grief has so many different waves. what can often happen, though, is if you start to feel good, because you feel like 'I did this', or'I, I felt this' or 'I went on a first date', or 'I didn't, I didn't sabotage myself'. There's something that happens in the brain, because it knows how to feel that yearning or that grief, then it it's almost as if something gets taken away. And there's self doubt. It's like anxiety. It's like, 'oh, I'm having a day where there's no anxiety', and the minute you say that the anxiety seems to come back. And so it's like saying to yourself, 'oh, I'm allowed to feel good', and me feeling good, because my body and my brain and my psyche, and my spiritual self, may not be used to this, and so it doesn't know what to do with it doesn't know how to frame it. And so I'm gonna go back to what I know, which is,'oh I'm not feeling so good' or'I feel guilty', or 'I feel shamed for that laughter', which often people who are going through the grief cycle after having lost a loved one will say, 'I feel guilty because I had a really knows time with a friend. And I wasn't thinking about my lost partner or my loved one'. And it's like, wait, you can have both, you can have that joy, and you can miss the loved one, and one is not to the exclusion of the other.

Claire:

What are some of the common coping mechanisms that people have if they're not coping too well with it?

Edy:

Some people turn to alcohol, some people turn to drugs, some people turn to food, some people turn to sleep. Some people turn to cutting themselves off from the world. Some people turn to sexualizing everything. So it's over-sexualizing. Some people become shopaholics, anything to calm the nervous system, and everything that I've mentioned are ways that people self medicate, even if it's not, quote unquote, 'medication'.

Chris:

And you mentioned in your own story, years ago about being overweight. Was that something that you could talk about now purely on reflection? Or at the time did you know I'm doing this because dot dot dot, I'm, I'm coping with something.

Edy:

Gosh I wish I had known it, then, you know...

Chris:

Would it have made a difference, if you'd known it, then?

Edy:

I don't know. That's such a good question again. So I don't, I don't know if it would have made a difference. I wonder though, if I'd gotten the kind of help, that could have pointed me in that direction, if it could have made a difference. What I what I can tell you is that my eating was secret, and I became very good at figuring out ways to hide what I was eating. To a point, you know, in a 9 year old, 10 year old's mind, you know, they think they're getting away with things that they're really not getting, you know, but but that's what happens. And that's part of our own development as well. You know, that is just part of normal development of what can we get away with and what can we lie about and not lie about and when do we get caught? With that said, however, you know, what happened to me at 9 was not shared with my family. And so the big secret was that and it wasn't until I was 30 that I even share that with my mother. My father never knew. When I realised that my first book was coming out and I talked about it, I realised that I needed to tell my my family, my parents were gone at that point, that this was what was going to be said, and share it with them. Because I didn't want them to read the book and be surprised. I didn't feel that that was fair. But then, upon sharing it, my life, I think, especially to my brother, started to make more sense. And the weight, in hindsight, of course, was in response to that, and my relationship with women, because I was abused by girls was greatly shattered. And up until probably 10 years ago, I could not see female doctors, and being a woman of this time, that's a sad lament. And being a girl who was overweight, I didn't have the ability to, to date or date normally, because I have the shroud of the weight. But it certainly if anybody ever approached me, I knew that it certainly had nothing to do with my body, because I certainly hated it.

Claire:

We're one of the questions we ask all our guests is whether they've suffered with the question why at all? Why me? Why did I go through this? Was that something that at any stage you had to kind of grapple with?

Edy:

Sure, absolutely. Always. And, you know, probably I still ask it in different ways. And I'm very careful about about myself, and what I eat, and my exercise and exercises again, you know, we know now that exercise can so help the brain with grief, with trauma, with sexual grief, getting to know your body, getting to know where if something hurts or doesn't hurt, is part of healing. So'why me?' I think that's a question, but now I've got a response: How are you going to use it? How are you going to use it to help others help themselves? And my audience and my readers, they are in my mind, with every word I speak, because I'm speaking the unspeakable.

Claire:

How important has the role of forgiveness been, when you've got something like this where there is one or several people that are responsible for what actually happened to someone?

Edy:

Curiously enough, I think forgiveness is so important. And yet, maybe one of the most misunderstood things that we have, because forgiveness somehow is often interpreted as forgetting. If I'm going to forgive, I'm going to forget. No, you're going to forgive and you're going to remember. Forgiving is not about redemption. Forgiving, is actually saying something must have gone on for that person in their lives, that they were able to do what they do. And the realisation that, indeed, the girls who abused me, one or two or three of them had to have been being abused themselves. And so my forgiveness comes in the fact that they were spreading around what was being done to them to probably normalise it. What I can also say is that years later, one of them came to me, called me out of the blue, I was visiting home, a place that I didn't visit a whole lot, and contacted me and we met for a drink. And I really didn't know why. I've never really spoken to her. And she said I need to apologise. And it was pretty amazing. Because it meant that she was holding it, and she remember. And so there was somebody through the years, and I got chills even saying this, that the abuser had also had a conscience. And we often don't think that our abusers do. But for her to be able to come to me and say 'I'm sorry', meant she'd held it.

Chris:

When you raise the conversations with your family before the first book was published, for a long period of time, much of your experience of being kept to yourself or being kept in the dark, when that came into the light with your family, what was that experience like in terms of it being known about talked about a bit more recognised? What impact did that have on those family relationships?

Edy:

It was a gathering. It was a recognition, it solidified us even more. I also didn't approach it from shame. I approached it from gratitude.

Chris:

And how did you get there?

Edy:

Because I wouldn't have been able to write the It's Grief book and I wouldn't be who I am, had I not had all the experiences that led up to it. Would I wish it on anyone? No, never. Am I happy about it? No. And yet, I carry with me a sensitivity for the pain of others because of my pain, and if I can pay some of my knowledge forward to help others live differently in their own lives, then there's gratitude.

Claire:

I'm guessing that telling the family is quite often a first step along the road for a lot of people, and probably one of the most daunting ones, whether it's family or friends or colleagues that you need to tell.

Edy:

Sure, absolutely.

Claire:

Is there any advice for somebody's listening? And they're just like, 'Oh, I just don't know where to begin!'?

Edy:

Thank you. Thank you so much for that question. Because yes, yes, and yes! So I'm a big believer in writing and writing the letter, writing out what you want to say, This is a letter not to be mailed. This is a letter that gets it all out. And it might be a letter that you work on. And and you continue to create, and you can continue to co-create it with the parts of you that hold shame, or guilt, or remorse, or grief, all of those pieces. And I have a journal that is going to also be coming out with the sexual grief book. And it's called Notes to Self. And every page has the same three prompts. Where are you stuck? Who and what are your superpowers? And how are you going to use them? And what's your metamorphosis? How are you going to metamorphosize where you're stuck or use the superpowers to help you move forward? And so this is indeed a process of metamorphosis. And that shame is about who you are, and guilt is about what you do. And if something has been done to you, shame on them, not shame on you.

Chris:

As you were listing some of those words like remorse, I thought of the word regret. I wonder just as a simple thought for a very complex subject that with sexual grief, because it goes to the innermost deepest, most intimate parts of our, you know, even sacred spaces of our being, of our soul. Does that mean it's an area of grief, that regret can play and maybe an unwelcome part or it's there more so than in other areas of grief, has regret being anything in your story?

Edy:

Regret is a big one. Because it's a, it's like the rewind, we rewind it, we play it again, we maybe see that we could have done something differently, like screamed or told someone or gotten out of the situation, if only and it's often aligned with a guilt of the action or the inaction, right. And regret can certainly permeate one, it's like 'if only' it's the 'if only, if only, if only I...' and the replay. And even the regret of,'I kept my animal alive too long', is regret, and it's a form of grief, for sure. Or the regret of 'I was the caretaker to my loved one, and I really couldn't do it but I needed to continue to be that caretaker. And I didn't get put them into a place where they could have gotten better care, perhaps. And it wasn't until they went through that I realised that needed to happen'. And so regret is a player, a big player, not for everyone, because not everyone experiences the same thing throughout one's lifetime with grief.

Claire:

Have you got examples of on the other end of the scale, really good things that have come through people recovering from or working through sexual grief?

Edy:

Sure. So I worked with a woman who had something called Vaginismus. Now Vaginismus is a disorder where it's very, very painful to have sex, to have sexual relations. She was 45 years old, and she had never had sex, because it hurt too much and she felt that she was so ashamed because of it. She couldn't even tell that to someone who she would date, so she would get to a point in a date when she knew it was kind of the next steps of that intimacy and then she just disappeared. And that was her rhythm. We knew that physically, there were things going on, but that her emotional place was also affecting what was happening to her physically. And after about two years of pretty intense work she had her first relationship that she considered to be a real relationship. And it was using all of the parts of the body and the mind and the soul. So that's an example.

Claire:

I think we forget that the healing journey involves that many parts. There's lots of different things to heal. There's lots of different aspects to us involved.

Edy:

That's right. That's right. And it's talking to the different aspects of the self, for men, when they come in, having been abused by Priests, and I've had a fair amount of men come into my practice, and just kind of not knowing what they believe what their desires are. And they have a duality in their grief and in their loss. The duality is the loss of faith or the loss of the relationship they have with their church, and the relationship that they have to their bodies, and to intimacy and to desire. And to the parts of them, that were just objectified, and how not to objectify others, because oftentimes, the attention that they got, and the way they got that attention, was the only attention they were getting. And that's often how they were tracked. So to work through a redesigning of the self, and that whatever happened to them, does not create all of them.

Chris:

What do you think of the future, purely from a sense of what's becoming accessible because of technology. You know, without anybody else being involved, just one person at home with a digital device, you know, children that we hear about today in schools receiving sending messages of a sexual nature, of content?

Edy:

Never thought of a question like that, and it's so appropriate. Technology is wonderful on so many levels, right? And maybe the technology that hurts a child may be the very technology that can help them ultimately, because that child will be able to get the help they need as an adult, from people who they may not be able to travel to, but may be able to help them. And what I can say is that the people who are raising our children need to get off of their devices, and give their children the eye contact and the attention that the children are needing and seeking and go back to some some of the ritualistic ways of family gatherings and dinners and family trips, and rules that are about having fun. And remembering that there's a child in the house, not just a child on their screens.

Chris:

So would you say you're, on the wider subject of the future, quite hopeful for the future in this subject area, more people talking, thinking about this area, you're quite hopeful?

Edy:

Hopefully once once this book gets out, because I'm a sex therapist, and this is a new term. I mean, that's kind of like, I'm just now beginning to talk about it, because I'm that much closer to getting this book out. So I appreciate both of you for allowing me to to talk about something that hasn't been spoken about. I appreciate so much that you have allowed me to have this platform with you. And you have done so with such courage and integrity and honesty.

Chris:

Thank you. We appreciate that. Got one more question. What's your Herman?

Edy:

One of my favourite books, movies is the Wizard of Oz. I love the Wizard of Oz, because she, Dorothy, is coming into her age and growing into a woman but she must first kill the child in her a little bit so she can meet her tasks of adulthood and womanhood. And so the Wicked Witch is killed and the red shoes come off (although they were white in the book) and they're put on her feet by Glinda, the Good Witch, and then she must meet all of the aspects of herself; the Scarecrow and the brain, and the lion and the courage, and the Tin Man and the heart, and she must conquer all those aspects within herself to really have ownership of her power. Because throughout the story, she's walking with those shoes, that she doesn't realise the power she has. And then she must meet the Wizard and realise the Wizard does not have the control, that he's this little guy behind a curtain, and that until she can lift the curtain and realise that she is bigger than him and smarter and that she's got the power that she can then go home. That is what we must do.

Claire:

Meeting our tasks of adulthood, such a tough road in general, let alone where we have grief thrown onto our path and into our luggage to carry. But Edy reminds us of the importance of remembering all the areas of life that we need to remember and consider on our way to full healing.

Chris:

Thank you, Edy for introducing us to a relatively new term 'sexual grief' and for helping open up conversations around such an area that many will try to stay away from.

Claire:

You can find out more about Edy and her book; It's Grief by visiting her website, which is www.edynathan.com. And watch that space for her next book too.

Chris:

And if you know someone who's processing a permanent loss of any kind, maybe they just need to feel a little less isolated, point them in our direction. You can find us on social media easily, or any podcast player by searching for'The Silent Why'. Or visit our website, www.thesilentwhy.com.

Claire:

We know some of these losses are sensitive topics to broach or share with others. But why not share a link on your social media or maybe send that person to our website?

Chris:

A huge thank you for listening, wherever you are in the world. We're continually encouraged by the support and positive feedback we receive.

Claire:

We finishing this episode with a quote from Cristen Rodgers.“Don’t hide your hurt, beautiful soul. Grab a hold of it. Run it through the purifying flame of your heart and mould it into something beautiful. Allow the depths of your pain to expand the breadth of your compassion. Gather up your stumbling stones and build a bridge for someone else. Remember what it’s like to be lost in darkness so you can be someone else’s much needed light. Don’t deny your pain or bury it away. Let it rise to the surface. And then transform it into something that makes it worthwhile.”

Podcasts we love