Let's Chat... Back to School Pain (with Elizabeth Leon)

#048 If you're feeling any pain with the words 'back to school' - this episode is for you. 

This last-minute Let's Chat... episode was inspired by a very honest Instagram video that I saw posted by a previous guest about the pain of ‘Back to School’ week. I know it’s a hard time for a lot of people, because it is for me too, so I reached out to this person to see if she’d return to The Silent Why to chat to me about it. And she said 'yes!' So I’m putting the episode straight out for anyone else that finds September hard - you’re not alone. 

These Let’s Chat… episodes pop-up every now and then instead of one of our 101 different types of loss, as I (Claire Sandys, co-host of The Silent Why podcast) chat to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us deal with, or prepare for, loss.

In this episode I chat to Elizabeth Leon from Virginia, US, about back to school pain.

Whether you’re facing the excitement and heartbreak of sending a child to school for the first or last time, fed up with the holidays and enjoying that first peaceful cup of tea, wishing your child could hit those 'normal' milestones, or watching it all play out wishing you had any part in it (and all the other emotions!), this conversation is a safe space to listen and explore your own feelings. 

Elizabeth went live on Instagram last week because it was the first time for 22 years that she wasn't part of the back to school week. The shock came about partly because her two high school children aren't living with her this year, but she's also aware that her son, John Paul (who was born with Trisomy 18 and only lived for 28 hours), would have been starting school next year.

So I invited her to explore what a conversation might sound like between a mum of ten,  a loss mum, an empty nester and a childless woman (and that's just two women!).

I ended up throwing out all my questions part-way through this interview because our heart-to-heart was so natural it didn’t need them.

Hear more about Elizabeth in Episode 26 of The Silent Why (Loss 19 of 101). Loss of a newborn baby: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/78784b16/loss-of-a-newborn-baby-elizabeth-leon 

You can visit her website for more about her and her book, Let Yourself Be Loved; https://

Transcript

Claire Sandys: 0:00

Just a quick heads up before this episode starts, I'm feeling the grief and loss of great audio with this chat. Some of the tech we used between us didn't quite work as we hoped. So the quality of Elizabeth audio is less than the usual perfection that we strive for. However, the content is great, and the chat is real and raw. So I hope that you can see past it and as the interview progresses, maybe you won't notice it at all. Thanks for listening. Hello, you and thanks for joining me for another episode of Let's chat. I'm Claire Sandys, co-host of The Silent Why podcast, blog writer, Earl Grey lover, marzipan eater, and childless, menopausal woman. Sexy right?! Welcome to another special timely edition of Let's Chat. In these episodes, I chat to a guest who has experience in a particular area of loss. And through them, I'm building a tool shed (metaphorically) of tools that help us face and get through loss and grief. This last minute episode was inspired by a very honest Instagram post that a previous guest posted last week about the pain of the'back to school' season. I knew a lot of people would be facing the same pain, loss and confusion that she spoke about, because I was feeling it to in a slightly different way. So I reached out to her to see if she chat to me about it. And I'm putting this episode straight out because this month, I know that parents all over the world will be facing the back to school day. Thousands of children in uniforms will be asked to stand on doorsteps for the classic spotless back to school photo that will delight, taunt, entral, and haunt adults up and down the country. I often hear this day discussed in different forums. From the excitement, nerves relief fear and heartbreak of the parents sending a child to school for the first time, to the parents fed up with the holidays counting the second for that peaceful cup of tea alone at home, to the child loss parents silently watching this film play out that they were supposed to have a part in, through to the childless people wondering what milestones their children will be having and avoiding social media and the delight and sadness of those around them. Plus everything in-between. It's a big old mixing pot of emotions. So when Elizabeth mentioned that it was the first time for 22 years that she wasn't part of the back to school week. And that it had come out of the blue because her two high school children weren't living with her this year. I just knew this was a conversation I wanted to have. We spoke to Elizabeth in Episode 26 of The Silent Why, loss 19 of 101, about the death of her son, John Paul, who had Trisomy 18, and only lived for just over a day. He was the only biological child that Elizabeth had with her husband, Ralph. But between them when they married, they had nine children, meaning that she's seen a very wide range of back to school moments. So I wanted to explore what would a conversation about back to school look like between a loss mum, who also has nine living children, and a childless woman. And I threw out all my questions partway through this interview, because our heart to heart was so natural, I just didn't need them. So stick the kettle on, sit back and relax, and join me and Elizabeth as we very honestly chat, back to school.

Elizabeth: 2:54

Thank you, Claire. First of all, I'm so happy to talk with you again. I'm Elizabeth Leon and I am coming from Northern Virginia, I live outside of Washington DC. And I live here with my second husband. And we have 10 children between us. We have four of his and five of mine. And then we have a little boy that we lost in 2018, which was the discussion of our prior chat. We also have two cats that I'm looking at right now staring out the window into the sunset. And our kids range right now from 15 to 32. But none of them live here, which is a hard part of being divorced. For a long time. I've been married to my new husband for 10 years, and when we first built a house together, we had six kids under our roof. So we went from a bustling busy household of six children to four years later, two of them heading to college, and then two more years, another and then two years another that two years ago, my now 17 year old son left to go live with his dad under a pretty hard circumstances. And then just recently, his younger sister also left under equally hard but slightly different circumstances. So we find ourselves with an empty nest, really unnaturally, it feels so unnatural. And I know there are lots of divorced families that deal with shared custody and lots of parents out there who either have chosen to not live with their children, or like me are heartbroken to not be the one to be raising their kids day in and day out. So that's kind of where we are.

Claire Sandys: 4:38

Part of the reason why I reached out to you to do this now is because you posted something on Instagram recently saying how hard that had been and how you'll you would normally be facing the whole back to school thing at the moment but because your daughter had moved out you were unexpectedly not really facing that. So that's been really difficult for you. So give me just a potted history of what your experience with back to school has been like, because you have obviously dealt with it on all age groups, all levels, as well as the kind of maybe expecting or hoping to take a child to school one day that never materialised. So what's your experience of back to school?

Elizabeth: 5:13

Oh my gosh, you know, that is such a milestone for parents, I can think so clearly when my oldest daughter was five, and I could still see that picture of her and her little backpack, and she was at a Catholic school. So she was all dressed up. And just that, that sense of surrender, that it's not all my job anymore. Like, now I'm handing them off to someone else. And will they be okay, will they miss me? Will they be, will kids be nice to them? What will their experience be? Just that first foray into a world being more than just your universe that you've created for them. So back to school, you know, has been a huge deal. I mean, especially when we had six kids in our house, all the school supplies and all their uniforms and figuring out the PE uniforms and shoes and the, the lists of we would go to our Walmart here with six back to school lists for each teacher. And, you know, checking off, you need four notebooks of these colours, and you need two plastic folders (can't be paper must be plastic) in these colours. You know, it was just, it's always been a lot. And we were, we were always really good about doing the fun pictures on the front port. And even that change from having all my kids in 1K to eighth grade school and then shifting into high school. And then the year that they went to college, I mean, that was a whole other rhythm of now we move kids into college in August. And then two weeks later, we send kids off to our local schools. So it's a lot, it's a lot to do, it's a lot to think about as a mom, it takes up a lot of space and energy. And I just felt this huge silent void of that this year. Just the silence of that, in my social media, all my memories are popping up with five years ago, four years ago, eight years ago, and I'm looking at these pictures of all of us at different stages on that front porch, in the morning, or catching them from the back as the high schoolers would walk to the bus. Been such a strange season of not doing any of that.

Claire Sandys: 7:31

Yeah, that's hard. I'm guessing it's a different sort of, you know, the way you're talking about it, I'm thinking there must be such a vulnerability. This child has been its whole universe has been you and your home and everything you've done for everything you want for that child. And then you give it to somebody five days a week, and they're teaching your child, you know, a lot of stuff that you're not party to, you're not that you don't know what they're learning. Exactly. And as I get older, I'm starting to realise how important that question is, when you come home from school. Your mom's like, 'how was your day?' And you're like, 'Yeah, it's fine'. But there's so much they want to know about what you're doing, how's it going? What's happening? I can I can really see why that feels so important now as a parent, but I'm guessing you feel quite vulnerable in that moment. How is it different? What you're feeling now compared to that feeling of when you sent them off? When you were feeling all those emotions?

Elizabeth: 8:15

You know, it's an interesting question, because We when last spoke you were talking about John Paul, and I've tried to and I've been very, I've really, really been grieving these losses of the kids not living here anymore, the younger two. And I've tried to ask myself, like, maybe you can pretend they're at boarding school. Or maybe you can pretend they're at college. You know, because I miss my college son very much, but I grieved... I didn't grieve when he left I was sad, and I missed him, and I kind of mourn that transition, I suppose, so maybe I did grieve the transition a little bit. But it just felt so appropriate. I had a whole life to expect that and to prepare myself mentally for him being away. And so this when he died, and how, how amazing that experience was, in vulnerability is, is quite different. A) because it's not what I wanted, and because it happened in a set of circumstances that didn't provide for anticipation, or healing or repair it kind of was just a ripping away rather suddenly. And also without the planning, you know, when you a lot of ways, alongside the pain and the grief. I'm guessing send your kids off to school, you know, you pray, they're coming back at the end of the day, and you're gonna get them for the weekend, and you know, that school schedule, the beginning of the year and all of us school moms, we get off the calendar or the iCal and we put all the holidays and the half days and the early dismissals and the teacher workdays and the conferences in that calendar. It's a big to do, but this experience now is very different. Even what would typically be predictable visitation schedule is not in place right now. So it's yeah, they're just they're out there. And I'm, I'm here kind of back in, back in the place where I always have been kind of like watching off in the distance to see if I'll get a wave that day or if I'll get get a drive by that day, proverbially. with this, it's a very different kind of letting go. And there isn't the obvious joy there, or those moments that you like you described in that episode (and if anyone hasn't listened, I would recommend listening that to get the context of what I'm saying, because that could sound quite glib) but how does it compare to that? Because they're both big, letting go's; the empty nesting, and not having the children around at home anymore, even though they are still here, and then letting go of John Paul. Yes, that is a hard question, not because of the emotion of it. But you know, on the one hand, if I compare it to my experience with John Paul, you know, we had a prenatal diagnosis. So I knew at 16 weeks that he was, we expected him to die after birth, or before birth for that matter. So I had 20 weeks to plan for his, I ended up having 20 weeks after that before he was born. And then there's so much joy and excitement with a birth right, there's so much to cherish and hold on to that is so beautiful, and exciting and lovely. And and then the loss happened. And I had time after that to, through grief, to discover some of the fruits of the freedom of surrender and letting go. And it was my worst fear that my child would die. And then he did. So I got to discover like, 'Okay, well, who am I after my worst fears have materialised?' And how can I still let myself be loved in this place of brokenness. So I think in many ways, it is a very similar journey. And I am certainly able to talk myself through the lessons I learned the first time, but it's gonna take time for them to like, trickle down into my heart and in my body. So I think in some way, like, I've just gotten the diagnosis still, it's like I got the diagnosis two weeks ago. And I'm still in that process. Because that's part of what grief is, it's this totally unreasonable thing that we're asked to hold in our body. That makes no sense. And it hurts so badly, because it does not fit within my shape. It does not hold itself within me, and yet it's been shoved in there. And over time, you know, it changes you change you shape around it and become slightly more comfortable to carry. And do you think that some of the lessons I've learned about detachment and trust and faith and surrender, and having had experiences from my divorce from some of my kids mental illness from death, where there has been beauty and hope and goodness, not just after it, but from it. So I do have hope, that in time, that will be part of this journey as well, that somehow in the longer picture, the longer trajectory of my kids lives, that this transition is part of what they needed in a way that just doesn't make sense to me, now.

Claire Sandys: 13:29

That's making a little sense. Part of why I want to do this conversation is that we come at it from two very different places, the back to school week, and I've got, you know, a foot in the childless community, and I've got a foot in the grief community. And I see both sides. I can, you know, I feel both sides quite often. But I have to occasionally step out myself and just step back into the childless bit and think, why, why is it hard for me? Why does it affect me? So listening to you talk is really interesting, because, like you said, it's just like, I've just got the diagnosis, and I'm working through it. And it's gonna take time. And I think with the childless community, you're dealing with so much other stuff, like just the whole thing of not having children or whether you're going through infertility or IVF, all that stuff. When the back to school thing comes. It's not fully on your radar, because it's not part of your your life. If you don't have other kids, September is not part of your life as a chapter marker for anything. In fact, my last blog is about I don't want September to be a chapter marker for me, I want to take that all out of it and enjoy it for the last bit of summer. But for for a lot of childless people, it's become this, everyone's going back to school. So your social media gets filled with lots of pictures of children in uniforms. And there's, there's one part of you that's just like, that's lovely, because they always look really cute, and they're so clean looking and everything looks so hopeful, you know, and then and there's another part of you, that's just like, that's never going to be my world. So I'm just thinking you don't really get that diagnosis point. It's almost like it's just dropped on you. So I guess that's the diagnosis and it comes out of the blue. But then within a few weeks, your life goes back to normal and it kind of moves on again and then another marker hits Like Christmas or Easter or another milestone for kids in some way. And you don't get that time unless you make it to stop and process and think this isn't part of my life, this will never be part of my and you have to be almost that brutal with yourself, I would encourage people because if you don't, you swallow it and you move on to another year, and I see people on childhood groups that possibly 10, 15, 20, years later, still getting that same pain from every September getting that that same pain from things. And I just think, you know, I don't want to live my life like that. I don't know how to get fully around it. But I don't want that to be my life. So I have to intentionally I say this, I haven't really done it, I need to do it properly. But I need to intentionally say to myself, This is not your life, this is never going to be your life, it might be that you'll be a part of other people's children's in some way like that. But you're not going to be doing that, that back to school thing. And it's very easy to to get bitter about it. And hide, which I don't want to do, because you know, I've got friends that are all sending their kids off to school for the first time, or they're sending their last child off to school, and it's their last first day. So it's like, it's hard if you want to support those. I don't want to be bitter about that. But at the same time, it's hard to draw alongside somebody. I would imagine. I don't know. Now, would you find it difficult this week, if you had to draw alongside somebody that was excited about back to school?

Elizabeth: 16:20

I have felt a little bit of it's not bitterness, but sometimes I feel a little jaded. Like, 'it's happy now, you just wait!' [laughs]

Claire Sandys: 16:31

[laughs] You know what's coming!

Elizabeth: 16:32

And I'd never ever say that to someone. But you know, there is that reality of... All of us want, we all want this fairy tale of whatever that looks like for us. Right? And, you know, because I did experience it, that whole family for quite some time. And I will, there are still times I'll say to myself, 'I just want my family to be in one piece'. And I have to come in and say'you're never going to have that again'. And it's harsh. And in listening to you. I wonder if one of the challenges when you deal with childlessness, and obviously I don't understand that in the same way that you do or your community does. But the time and the journey it takes to go from 'I don't have a child right now', to 'I'm never going to have a child' like to me, that feels like, even to hear you say 'never' I'm like oh, that's hard. That's hard to hear you say 'never'.

Claire Sandys: 17:30

I think there's members of our family that would find that hard. And I remember at one point just after I had my hysterectomy, which obviously physically ended that, for me just thinking to myself or saying at one point 'well if we have kids', because I'd spent so long with the 'if', 'if it happens for us'. And then it just it was months afterwards, I thought to myself, there's no'if' biologically that's a'never', you know, even now sometimes I find myself telling myself, 'it's never gonna happen for you. You're never going to carry a child'. Because I almost need to hear it as a sort of a'my word that is my reality'. It's weird to I think that's why some of these griefs are so bizarre, aren't they? There's no, I haven't gotten any tangible to say, this is your situation. So you have to kind of always just tell yourself mentally that that's your, your situation. But like I said to you, you know, beginning when we're talking about recording this, I want people to come together and have these conversations, because it'd be so easy for the childless community, and the loss moms and those that are sending kids back to school that are finding it difficult to just separate off into their separate camps. And I think we've got so much we could learn from each other. You know, I really do believe that., yes, you might have, you know, you might have nine children. But you had one child that didn't make it to school, you know what that feels like, and that doesn't make it any easier because you had loads of other back to school days. And you know, you haven't got a biological child with Ralph, because of that, you know, childlessness on one level. So I think there's so much there. I learned a lot from hearing you talk and thinking, you know, okay, because you know, childless people can very quickly idealised parenting and make it this wonderful thing with this beautiful baby that goes off to school and has this magical goodbye moment. And you know, it's just, it's so dangerous to do that and not listen to the, the hardness and the pain and the busyness that that comes with it. So I love that we can, you know, talk and, and learn from each other like that. I think that's, that's really important. I'm already learning listening to you talking and thinking, 'Okay, what do I need to do to face this?'

Elizabeth: 19:29

There's complexity in being able to kind of hold space for the fact that like, I'm very aware that next back to school is when John Paul would have been starting kindergarten. And I don't know why there's such a marker around kindergarten. Honestly, if he were still alive and a healthy child, he would have been a preschool for two years. So I don't know why kindergarten feels like a bigger deal. So I'm very aware of that. What would have been so I don't ever want to take that out because it's not holding on to my grief as much as it's a place where my love for my child continues to grow and continue to be present. But I also can't allow that, and I've had to figure out how to live my life and have beauty and fullness and joy. Like, despite carrying this, despite accommodating this loss within my body, so that I hold both of those things together. And, you know, that's part of what I think all of us are asked to do. We're not asked to minimise the grief of not ever having a child, or continuing to long for a child, even. Sometimes we long for things we can never have. While continuing to seek beauty and goodness, and you know, maybe motherhood in a very, very non traditional way, whatever that looks like for you or for other people that might be listening.

Claire Sandys: 20:57

Are things that you've been doing this week, to protect yourself a bit from, from just being around it being everywhere, that America went back to school, a week before us, so you've already been through those first days, we've got them this week coming up. If you put anything in place in the impractical, it's helpful for the people maybe feeling that?

Elizabeth: 21:15

Well, for me, I just try to be really in tune with how I'm feeling, I try to really ask myself that question like,'What does grief look like for me today?' And in this case, when I say grief, it's the grief over the loss of my daughter who I just miss. Because I just really haven't spent any time with her in six weeks at this point, now, I just miss her. So just giving a little bit of space and time for that. And if it means I need to cry for a little while I do. But then reminding myself of what's true that I am still a mother, even if she's not here, I am still a writer, I am still a worker, I am still a wife, I still live in a beautiful house, and I can enjoy the sun and the walk and my faith and really just connecting and like you said earlier having to speak a little bit harshly to yourself and speaking truth to myself, but using a very kind voice saying all the things that are true, even the hard ones, but making sure I say all of the other good ones that are very present. So that does help me. Maybe we call it mindfulness. Maybe will we call it meditation or prayer, but it's just an awareness, and really a curiosity. Trying to be really non judgy with myself. And being able to laugh I mean that that social media posts I did was because I thought; I want to post a picture of my empty front porch right now.

Claire Sandys: 22:47

Yeah, you should have done that. That would have been brilliant.

Elizabeth: 22:50

Yes. And I you know, I still could but like, Yeah, this is where I'm at today. Take it or leave it. I'm not apologising, but that's hard. It's hard.

Claire Sandys: 22:59

It's such a hard line

Elizabeth: 23:00

But still beautiful.

Claire Sandys: 23:01

Yeah, that's important. It's a really, really hard line. I've had this discussion even recently with Chris, where is that line about being honest about who you are and what you're going through and what your grief looks like, and then maybe being wingey or being a victim and it's a difficult line to walk once you start being honest about things, it gets perceived different ways. And sometimes, I just want to be more honest. Because it's who I am. And it's not a wingey thing. It's just you know, it's just me. And I you know, I think I hold back on that quite a bit because of other people which is right to a certain extent, but not if it comes at the detriment of yourself actually working through things. You know, what you just said I just wrote it down and you actually literally said it going back to those truths and saying truths to yourself that I am other things you know, and for me it's been a lot of me and my life doesn't have to look like every other woman my life is okay if it's not as a biological mother, you know, lots of things that that that over the years you found peace with that are personal to you. Not that just you're just saying but things that have come personal to you over the years that you know are truths, and then protect yourself by avoiding things. You know, if you need to avoid social media for a couple of weeks, avoid it, you know, let people celebrate. You don't need to be there for it or dive in and find another way to do it, enjoy it celebrate and actually encourage some people. I think what I find difficult probably as a childless person is the you know, a lot of people find it hard to let their kids go off to school, which I get, might probably don't fully understand but I get, but then it's literally within weeks, if not months that they're moaning that the school holidays are coming up and the kids are coming home again full-time. And that's the bit where I want to be like:'You guys are never happy! You're gonna be whinging at me soon about them coming home!' It's like make up your mind. That's where I want to be more honest.

Elizabeth: 24:46

It is hard. I mean when it is hard when you have children part of that is that when you start to have a taste of getting some time and space back to yourself, like it's almost easier in the beginning because you just give that all up, you know more time and space yourself. But then once the last child starts going off to school, you're like, 'Oh, I remember what this was like'. And frankly, that is a really beautiful part of this particular season. And I, I do kind of try to give myself some self talk, just imagine if three years from now and they're all in college and you landed here, very naturally and appropriately. It's not all bad to have, after 25 years of being a mother, it's not all bad to have a lot of time to myself.

Claire Sandys: 25:35

Doesn't always help though does it?

Elizabeth: 25:36

No.

Claire Sandys: 25:37

The amount of times we've done the whole, or people have said to us, 'at least you've got a nice house, or you've got your health, or you've got a nice car, or you've got the freedom to do this and that and the other'. And it's like, yeah, I've tried that it doesn't work, it doesn't work as filling those gaps.

Elizabeth: 25:52

Right, it doesn't fill the gaps. But I can also I think, for me, I would tend to just lean into 'Oh, and I'm so sad, and not really allow myself any of that be part'. So for me, it's like, Okay, I'm going to be sad. But I'm also going to just put all that sad stuff down for a little bit, because it'll be there whenever I want to pick it back up, and I am going to try to just enjoy this moment. Or maybe I can stretch it into an hour, or maybe I can stretch it into a day. Because that doesn't come very naturally for me, I tend to be much more of a an Eyeore.

Claire Sandys: 26:26

Oh, I love Eyeore. I find him so relatable. I'm actually more the other way, I guess I like him because I'm not so much, I'm by no means a Tigger, but I envy you when you say that you default to the sad thing, because my default is to just get on with stuff.

Elizabeth: 26:42

Oh ok.

Claire Sandys: 26:43

And not stop and do the sad thing enough, which I think has tripped me up many times. And I often query have I have I done enough working on this stuff? Because I don't stop and allow that, it's more of a'right let's get on with things. You know, what's the point in sitting and wallowing?' which is not helpful and not healthy. I don't recommend it at all. But it's Yeah, so I have to intentionally make that time to do that. The tricky thing is I worry what other people think a lot. So I think with the childless life, people tend to assume it's like it was before you had kids, but it's like that forever. And so they have this real glowing sense of a life with no children, because they have children, they have almost have everything. So they can say look before they think that looks amazing. Your life, you know that? How hard can it be to come to terms with all that free time? What they forget is the time before maybe when they couldn't quite have kids or they got to that point in life when you know, when you kind of get together and you think let's have children? I mean, doesn't happen for everybody. But if let's say you're planning it and you're like, Okay, we were done with each othe we know we were good. But we want something more. We need more. Let's have a child. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. We're enough the two of

Elizabeth: 27:47

We need something else to focus on! It's a nice little fantasy, right? You and Chris have just us, let's have a new challenge. But it's that it's that that you been happy and perfect together forever. But for me, it's kind live in forever. It's not the happy honeymoon bit before it's the 'are we enough? No, we're not. Let's have a family'. You know, it's those kind of exciting, and you used to get stuck there. And I think a lot of people who I know who go away and have an amazing time without the kids, they have an amazing time without the kids because they're going back to the kids. And it really does help that time away, when you're going back to something that is that fulfilling, albeit harder and difficult and more time consuming and all the other stuff that comes with it. There's something about that, whereas when you go away the two of you, and then you come back and it's the two of you, and then you make plans and it's the two of you, and then you go away, it's not the same. So I do find that difficult. Sometimes I think people, I feel like, my life looks like it's nicer and easier, and you know, all that kind of stuff. So when people send their last child off to school, they get a lot of free time. There's that initial sort of like, oh my god, this is amazing. And I worry, that's what people think my life is like all the time. I want to just step in and be like 'Nooo!' of the equivalent of, I'm looking at my kitchen table, which right now could comfortably seat ten, and it's only ever two of us. So those empty seats are around us. And I imagine in many ways, that that's exactly the same for you and other childless couples that have longed for and tried for and searched for a way to fill that table. So it's not like you're at your little parlour table that only ever sat two people. Yeah, you know, we've got these tables where maybe there were people that aren't anymore, or there are empty chairs that we always hoped would be filled and we carry that sort of metaphorical empty space around with us. Yeah, it's so true and I think you know, I would really urge people and possibly you included to not have those around you for too long because we've had to make decisions of you know, having extra bedrooms and we had a bedroom set up for guests and that we thought all lots people come and visit. No one really did. So we took the decision, you know what we can't sit and look at this. We can't look at this gap anymore. Let's turn it in. to podcast room, let's turn it into a writing room. Let's make it something that fits our life. And that's been brilliant. That's been a really healthy decision to not have gaps that look like that's where the nursery should have been, that's where this just happened. I think you need it for a while, because it's really healthy with that grieving, you need to look at that table and process and focus on you know that for a bit and, and then there comes a point when it's like, okay, right, well, that's still going to be the case. But I'm not going to have to look at it every morning as a reminder, looking at back to school week, I don't know if you can assume that there's nothing you can do about that to make that not not be quite so painful? Well, I think about the very first Thanksgiving, you know, in America, we celebrate November, Thanksgiving of 2011 was the first Thanksgiving after my custodial arrangement with my first husband when I didn't have my kids. So my answer was I packed up and I went to the Bahamas for a week, I said, 'I am not staying in the country to do this holiday where I'm just weeping and sat around the table'. But I don't know how you take an entire holiday around September, and where are you going to go to escape back to school? But I do think one strategy is certainly just looking away, if you could, but that tends to not be my MO I'm more of a look right into it, and face the feelings that I have about it. But you are making me think about my daughter's room. Which frankly, is a disaster still, like I haven't It's been weeks and I haven't wanted to touch it. And there's like a dead plant in there, because my hope is that she will come back and usually like on the weekend or something, but I don't have to leave it like a shrine for her like I would have, we never got to make a nursery for John Paul, but I know a lot of parents have lost struggle with that. But to deal with this face. And so I appreciate that journey of your grief with Chris to just say, now it's time we don't need to still watch and wait if these things are going to happen.

Claire Sandys: 32:01

And it's different, you know, different for everybody. I know that some people don't touch rooms, when someone dies for years. I know that I'm at the other end of the scale where I've said to people around me you to stop me if something had recently happened to Chris, stop me clearing out because my 'go to' would be to try and remove everything. I would regret it. But my gut instinct, I remember even when pets have died, I've come back from the vets and just cleared everything away into a different room. I can't look at it, I don't wanna look at any of it. And I've recognised over the years that doesn't help doesn't help with your processing at all. So you I think you have to recognise who you know what your go to is and what you need. And either stop yourself or encourage it. And I love what you said about looking straight into something, you know, maybe is opening Facebook, looking right into it and just crying and being like, this isn't my life. But sometimes that helps you through it. And the next one's easier because you think I don't need to do that again. I did it.

Elizabeth: 32:50

Because I think the unhealthiest thing of all would be to somehow deny that this was our life. Yeah, right to be able to say so honestly. And vulnerably This is a terrible season, I am aching in this season. One more backpack is gonna break me open or you know, whatever. I think telling the truth about that, for me is always what leads to greater freedom, not hiding that like really being honest about my feelings. You know, I wanted to ask you, though, when you were speaking before, I wonder, how has it been for you kind of processing, hearing the opinions and the voices of other people around you, not just in what they think your life is like? Or maybe what they think you should or should not do about your childlessness? Like how have you managed to filter or tune in or tune out lots of opinions?

Claire Sandys: 33:40

Um, probably not? Well, I don't think looking back at the time, I think I would have thought I was dealing with it fine. Or the whole way through our childlessness. And as we've been very much like, Okay, well, this is going to be our path. So let's do our best, you know, we want to be, we want to be good examples of how life doesn't need to beat you down. We wanted to be good examples of people of faith. And that's not really been that helpful for us. I think we could have really sat down and thought about it more. But with other people, it's really hard because I always want to be kind. So I always want to swallow what people say even if it hurts to not hurt them. Which again, I don't think has been hugely helpful, even other people understanding our situation, because we've seemed okay about it the whole way along. And that's really been because I don't want them to feel bad. So yeah, that's been that's been really confusing. And it's something I'm I'm definitely still working out. I'm feeling a bit braver to be a bit more honest about things because other people are honest with us. You know, I've noticed that people like loss moms who have lost children, you know, I mean, that some that are very, very honest about that. When so when people say say something to them, they will they will point out that hurts. And I haven't really felt that we could do that because I think I felt that if you've lost it. This sounds awful. But at one point, I remember thinking I wish I'd lost a child because I would have something that people would recognise that was painful.

Elizabeth: 35:05

Yeah.

Claire Sandys: 35:05

People just give you this response of, 'Oh, my word, like, whatever you say now is okay, because I know you've been through something horrific'. And I don't feel like you get that with childlessness. I feel like it's more of a 'oh, that's awful'. And they always fall out with a but. 'Oh, you know, at least you can go on holidays in school terms, at least you don't have to use contraceptives', I've had that a few times, you know, all these sorts of things.

Elizabeth: 35:25

People are so dumb!

Claire Sandys: 35:27

Aren't they?! I'm still amazed by what people say on the podcast, they've had said to them.

Elizabeth: 35:30

Well and even just the suggestion that you would be okay. Yes, I'm sure there are people out there who have very happily chosen to live their lives without having children. I don't want to suggest that's not the case. But that wasn't the case for you and Chris, you were hoping and wanting and longing and trying? And how could you possibly be okay? After grief after grief, the emptiness and unfulfilment of a dream, any dream, but in this case, your dream is having a child.

Claire Sandys: 36:00

It's people, you know, isn't it? And I think I have a lot of grace for that. I do understand that it's not easy. I understand. People don't know what to say about it, I get all that. I think it's just when you're so okay about it, people are okay around you, which is sort of what you want. But at the same time when they're SO okay, around you...

Elizabeth: 36:18

It's like 'Wait a minute!'

Claire Sandys: 36:19

Exactly! You get surrounded by all these happy memories and things happening. And that line of being involved and wanting to be happy for them and actually having the pain inside that you feel - really tough to walk. I mean, I understand why people separate themselves off from kids, you know, in the family, I don't think it's good. I don't think it's healthy. But I do understand the decision to try and live their life separate from that, it doesn't work because it doesn't get rid of any of the pain and you lose out on a lot. I think but yeah, I do understand that. Problem with me is I project a lot of things onto other people that they've never said or done. So I think,'oh, they obviously think this or they probably think that we went away and had an amazing holiday because it was abroad. And we had some amazing photos, they probably think that's just our life'. They don't know that half of it was spent with the two of us just looking at each other being like, 'what has our life come to?'

Elizabeth: 37:08

It is really that paradox? And I'm thinking about that even with my happiness with Ralph. I mean, am I happy that I had to like go through a horrific divorce, that is still terrible, to find this, like great relationship with my husband now? I mean, I don't know. Like, I'm so happy I have what I have now, and I think I would have chosen to go through all of that, knowing that it led me here. I would like to say with confidence every day, I would choose that. But it is hard. Sometimes I think would I be happier staying in a mediocre life without knowing loss? Like, it's so tricky, because the bravest answer I can give is that I am happier now, even because of all the grief because it has shaped me and invited me to live life at this deeper level. You know, maybe those people that are making these fairly ignorant comments really haven't ever had to struggle with anything I find that hard to imagine, but you and I have known a struggle that allows us to engage with ourselves and engage with the world, think with greater authenticity and greater honesty and greater joy, that I would choose every time. But the journeys are hard, that's for sure.

Claire Sandys: 38:31

That's so important. And I think I've thought that a lot with childlessness a lot of people throw out what they have to try and get what they don't have. And in the process, you can lose what you have. I'd feel exactly the same way. If I had to go back and not go through childlessness, it would mean not being with Chris. And it would mean not having a relationship. I might be married with kids somewhere else but be miserable. Would I choose the same road? I think I would. Yeah, I'm almost definite I would because, you know, I love what I have with him with all the troubles that you know, might come with it. And that's I think something I try and encourage other people if you know, a lot of people with childlessness would say they've got a great relationship when they're working through it. But some people throw that away, trying to get the child you know, the IVF goes on and on, and it splits the marriage or, you know, they lose a child and the grief splits the couple and all these sorts of things. I just think you know, don't, don't forget the amazing thing you have. And it's probably the same with people, taking kids back to school and struggling with a few of, you know, that could become your whole week, and you could be really upset but at the same time, I'd say there's amazing things you have got. And it doesn't make up for it fully for what you're going through. But you've got to cling to it a little bit because if we don't cling to that you can you can lose the good stuff that is around and that to me is heartbreaking.

Elizabeth: 39:44

Yeah. And I'm thinking too about the rhythms. I mean for all of us. I think even for me if I were a mother who had kept all of her little children in her nest and they all just went off to college there is still like an ache. There's a an ache that comes with an empty nest even a nest that empty very naturally. Because by the time your nest gets empty, like you're, you're probably all at middle age, right? And then we're starting to deal with, wow, my life is really changing. I am not young anymore. I don't have all of my years in front of it, you start to grapple with sort of the grief and the ache and the acceptance of a whole new stage of life that for many people comes with an emptiness but for other people you just transition into and have to begin to look at what does it start to mean to have different rhythms in my life? And I think part of the back to school emptiness is that, we all went to school, like we were all raised going to school so that, that fall into September, rhythm is in us from our own first 12 or 16, or longer years of school. So it's hard to break away from that, but you you find yourself in a season where it's time to break away from it. And how does this new rhythms feel for me? How do I shape myself around this new set of expectations? And I'm just really beginning to learn that as my motherhood has started to transition and now very rapidly change!

Claire Sandys: 41:22

Yeah, yeah, you've made me realise that actually, not only when you don't have children are you in that phase of before you have kids of wondering, are we enough? What should we do? I think that when you don't have children, you immediately you fast forward straight into the empty nest syndrome.

Elizabeth: 41:37

Yeah, yes!

Claire Sandys: 41:38

So I fully identify with that whole kind of like, 'okay, my whole life's ahead of me. I don't want it to be just me and Chris, and the whole life ahead of me. But this is what it is, what do we do with it? Who are we? How are we getting on? Who am I? What have I been through?' There's a lot of, just so many questions. Yeah. Which is why again, I really think it's important to bring people together to chat about this. Because, you know, if you're with someone that's childless, what you're feeling right now, with this blank canvas ahead of you that you didn't really want in this way, shape, or form is the same kind of feeling that they're going through. And if we connect more together like this, we recognise that and go I actually, you know, what, we're in completely different boats. I mean, me and you, couldn't be in a different boat, really, when it comes to being mothers, it's just poles apart. But at the same time, there's so many of the the emotions and the feelings, that we can learn.

Elizabeth: 42:26

That common humanity, I think the more we can make connections, and just realise how much we do have in common. I think we're all just kinder and kinder to ourselves or kinder to people that we meet, even the ones that don't seem to get it. You know, sometimes I'll think if I if I have a little more peace in my heart, I can think'I'm so happy for you, that you don't get this... yet!'.[laughs]

Claire Sandys: 42:53

There's the jaded bit - "Yet!" [laughs]

Elizabeth: 42:55

Because we're all gonna face it, we're all gonna age, children will age, someone will die, you know, maybe it's someone who's very old. But it comes, we can't escape it. It's just a matter of when do you start to face these hard questions?

Claire Sandys: 43:09

And we're just reaching out to those around us as well, you know, thinking, there's no school gate out there this year, in any country where there isn't a parent stood there, struggling. They're there. And there's a hundred that are sat at home wishing they were there. And, you know, there's so many of us going through similar things, reaching out and just finding people that help you work through it, it's so much easier than doing on your own. You said on your, on your video that your work and your your brand is 'Let Yourself Be Loved', and that that can sound a bit sort of Hallmark card, as you said, but just explain a little bit about what that looks like for people who might be struggling this week.

Elizabeth: 43:44

Sure, sure. So Let Yourself Be Loved is a phrase that really came to me, I'm convinced from the Holy Spirit after our son died of just like how to make sense of his short and shining life. And I've really internalised it to mean that in all of these terrible hard things that come our way, we're still offered this great love, you know, I believe in the Lord as well. And it's that sense of 'how can I open myself to just receive something bigger than what this pain is ,right here?' You know, so for this week, and for all of us that are just struggling, you know, Let Yourself Be Loved is yielding to what is right before you. It's saying in this place where this is not what I wanted. This is not what I asked for. This is not what I chose; this grief, this emptiness, this loss, this expectation, this unfulfilled dream or longing, whatever it is, but that we are, we are not alone in that place, and that I can somehow even just for this moment, or this hour or day, receive goodness and kindness. There can be beauty and peace and joy, along with this really painful thing that we're dealing with. It doesn't take it away. It just makes it something more. So for me, letting myself be loved is just that reminder that I am not defined by my losses, I am not defined by what certain people in my life have to say about me right now, are not defined by even the ways I let myself down, that my goodness is bigger than that, and I can practice learning to receive it.

Claire Sandys: 45:24

So if I went into my metaphorical tool shed, and I'm looking for a tool that represents maybe being aware that September is going to be hard for people with or without kids in the whole back to school season. If I'm armed with that knowledge, what kind of tool do you think it might represent?

Elizabeth: 45:38

So I think for me, it would be a rake, which is a little bit predictable here as September and in the States, the leaves start to fall and many of us are dealing with rakes in our yard, but using the rake to just gather together, like literally to go into that landscape of my own heart in this back to school season and just gather in all the different parts of me the parts of where I went back to school, the parts of all the good things about when my own children went back to school and all the sad things about having an empty house right now or missing the expectations of what I had hoped it would be. I think that rake can just bring all of those things together. So I can see the whole picture and look at it all together and see all the different facets and dynamics of my life and and remember that this one season of back to school is only part of the leaf pile. It's not the whole pile.

Claire Sandys: 46:41

A rake, another useful tool for my shed that I don't yet have. Thank you, Elizabeth for such an honest, open conversation. I know we both got a lot from it, and we'll continue to reflect on it for a few days to come. I don't know what your situation is right now and how you feel about September. But I hope after listening to this that you know that you're not alone, however you're feeling, whether happy or sad, lost or found. Every September, or every school gates, there's an ecstatic mum or dad, there's a heartbroken mum or dad crying in the car, there's a childless person avoiding that street, there's a grief stricken one at home avoiding social media. It's an exciting time for many children, a painful one for many adults. But hopefully opening up topics like this to chat about them and show that although our experiences are very different, and our pain is very different, we can come together as humans and learn how to support one another. We can ultimately feel less alone. If you'd like to find out more about Elizabeth and her book; Let Yourself Be Loved. You can visit her website www.elizabethleon.org. And I'll put links to follow her on social media in the shownotes. And yes, Elizabeth is still using her smash pile. I asked her about it after we stopped recording. In fact, there's even something amazing happening with it. Keep an eye out on her social media or drop her or me a DM to find out what that is. And if you don't know what a smash pile is, you need to go back and listen to her episode. Thank you for listening to The Silent Why podcast. If you've got a subject you'd like me to chat to an expert on, please get in touch via social media or the website or via our email thesilentwhy@gmail.com And let's chat!