101 LOSS COUNTDOWN: 30 down, 71 to go

#044.  Another milestone reached! We've hit loss number 30 on our mission to explore 101 different types, meaning we only have 71 (!) to go.

In this episode we (Chris & Claire Sandys) pause briefly to discuss what we've learned so far on this journey. What are the takeaways? What has encouraged us? What will we try in the future? What's most memorable about the last 10 losses we've explored?

We're loving every second of talking to others on this podcast, but we're also learning a lot about healthy ways to process our own childlessness grief.

And because we ask every guest 'What's your Herman?', we've mixed together the last 10 guest's Hermans - so tune in for the not-yet-famous 'Hermontage' to hear what they want to share to help you in your loss.

Huge thanks to Losses 21-30: Carol Tyler, David Richman, Lis Whybrow, Grant Morgan, Sasha Bates, Mick North, Clarissa Moll, Jennifer Bute, Steve Keogh, and Alicia Williams.

If you'd like to see our guests and encourage them, pop over to our social media for the latest collage of their lovely faces and hit 'like'.

Transcript

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Chris: 0:02

30 down, 71 to go, how does that feel?

Claire: 0:06

Good, it feels good. Feels like we're kind of a good chunk of the way in, nearly a third.

Chris: 0:13

Nearly a third. On one hand it's going really fast, and then the other hand, it feels like it's going really slowly, I think we've done 30 now, which means time is flying, but then if I listen back to Loss Number 21, for example, that was back in March. That's a long time. So it feels fast, but it feels slow.

Claire: 0:33

Hello, and welcome to The Silent Why podcast, we're your hosts, Claire.

Chris: 0:37

And Chris. We're a childless couple, not by choice, married couple, by choice. And we're using this podcast, we're on a mission to explore 101 different types of loss, permanent life that is, just to put a small caveat in there, and looking to see if you can find good and joy and hope in every type of loss.

Claire: 0:57

And so far, I'd say yes, you can.

Chris: 0:59

Pleased to hear it. We've reached loss number 30. And so in this episode, we're going to reflect back on our third batch of 10 losses.

Claire: 1:06

And we did a similar thing with the first 20 losses in Episode 11 and 29, if you want to check those out. I think this last batch are really diverse, which I'm really pleased with. And I think more importantly, none of the episodes are just us talking about our losses.

Chris: 1:19

Well, you did say 10 losses ago I think, in the last little sum up that we did, that you were wondering whether we could get an episode of our own losses into every batch, and I guess good job that all we've ever lost is fertility and pets!

Claire: 1:31

Isn't it?! Really good job. No more losses ever! Yeah, I think we'll be popping up again before you know it. But we have managed to do a whole ten without us. So that's good news.

Chris: 1:40

I'm amazed we've done 30 and there's still so many obvious losses to go, like loss of hearing, loss of speech. Actually, that would be two difficult topics to cover on a podcast!

Claire: 1:51

We haven't even got a whole episode on loss of a wife really, or a grandparent, or...head.

Chris: 1:56

That would be an interesting episode. Yeah, I thought you were going to say loss of hair, yeah that's, that's more common. Loss of head?

Claire: 2:03

Yeah tha'ts up there. You never know.

Chris: 2:04

We're gonna have to find some 'body' to do that one.

Claire: 2:07

Ahh nice! We're here all week.

Chris: 2:13

Right, let's remind ourselves of the 10 guests that joined us for losses 21 to 30.

Alicia: 2:21

Hi, my name is Alisha and I'm here to talk to you today about the loss of childhood and dreams and how that affects our life.

Grant: 2:29

My name is Grant Morgan. I'm here to tell you about my beautiful son, Jack Harry Morgan, and why he didn't come this far, to only come this far.

Sasha: 2:39

My name is Sasha Bates and I lost my husband, Bill, and I wrote a book about losing him called Languages of Loss.

Steve: 2:49

Hi, my name is Steve Keough. I'm a former police officer, I spent about 12 years of my career investigating murder. Today we're going to talk about the loss through murder and how that can impact on more people than you'd imagine.

Lis: 3:00

Hi, I'm Lis Whybrow and I'm here talking about what it's meant to me to lose my professional accreditation.

Mick: 3:08

I'm Mick North I lost my wife Barbara to breast cancer. And two and a half years later, our only daughter, Sophie, then aged five, was killed at Dunblane Primary School.

Clarissa: 3:19

Hi, my name is Clarissa Moll, I lost my husband in a hiking accident on our family vacation, leaving me a widow with four children.

Carol: 3:28

Hello, my name is Carol Tyler. And I'm here to talk about grief loss, comics grief, the loss of a comics legend and a lot of other things.

David: 3:38

So my name is David Richman. And I am happy to join 101 stories of loss, mine is revolving around my sister June who I lost the cancer.

Jennifer: 3:48

I'm Jennifer Bute and I've lost so much. I lost my job because of a diagnosis of dementia. But I have gained so very much more like could ever have done in any other way.

Chris: 4:00

What a wonderful bunch of people.

Claire: 4:02

Anything stand out straightaway?

Chris: 4:04

Yeah, definitely. Diversity. Oh, which one in particular?

Claire: 4:07

Yeah. So if you have to pick one, and it just like comes to mind, which one is it? Don't think about it!

Chris: 4:13

I have to think about it! I'm not telling you what I had for tea! Probably the most recent one, or the most recent ones is David Richman.

Claire: 4:21

Any particular reason?

Chris: 4:22

Yeah, because he really inspired me with his drive.

Claire: 4:25

Ah yeah, sportsman.

Chris: 4:27

The sporty element and the fact that he'd done things like runn a 24 race and then been in a rollerblade race that's still..

Claire: 4:36

85 miles of rollerblading. an 85 mile rollerblade... And he couldn't rollerblade beforehand, could he? He taught himself to rollerblade. Why do I feel like I'm saying that like a posh person - rollerblade. So yeah, David Richman. I think his drive was was brilliant, that's one that stands out to me. Yeah. And I think his journey was so transformational. It started with him being described as an overweight smoker in an abusive marriage. And then when we were speaking to him, he was an endurance athlete, an author, an inspirational speaker, motivational speaker, doing all this kind of stuff and so eloquent in his journey and what he experienced and losing his sister through brain cancer hadn't been something that he just changed through, he then gone on to chat to hundreds of people about their cancer journeys to find out about the emotional side of it, to then go on and write a book to talk about what those journeys look like, and how they can differ and just very inspiring all that can happen in your 30s and 40s. That you know, doesn't have to start really young and that you can just become almost a completely different person, really.

Chris: 5:37

So that was Loss 29 loss of a sister, David Richmond, which is Episode 41, what about yourself?

Claire: 5:42

The one that comes to mind quickest, when I think of the last ten was Mick North. I don't initially know why, he was talking about loss of a daughter in a school shooting because he lost his daughter in Dunblane. And I think what surprised me most about that one was that I didn't realise until we spoke to him, they'd also lost his wife a couple of years before he lost his daughter. And I think that was eye opening on another level of the sort of thing some people have to go through, like the unfairness of it in some way that you would go through all that losing your wife to breast cancer, and then your daughter is killed in one of the school shootings, and to have to endure that on his own as well. But then how active he was in campaigning for anti-gun legislation, you know, things like that he didn't just give in and stay at home, like I think a lot of us would have been tempted to do, he actually went on to make sure it was it would be safer in this country, for other children in other schools. So I think that one spoke to me in a way I wasn't really expecting, for some reason that stands out when I think back quickly over them.

Chris: 6:42

That was Episode 37. And I agree there was one of the bits that really stood out for me in that episode was hearing him contrast the grief journey of losing his wife, and then it just being himself and his young daughter, and then losing his daughter a few years later, and he spoke so highly, and so favourably about community, and the importance of gathering a group around you. And that came naturally because you know, he's involved in a school shooting in that's how his daughter died. So a number of teachers, school staff, parents, all naturally then became involved in the group as they mourned that together, which was a very different journey for him and experience for him, compared with mourning the loss of his wife, that was more of a private affair. So it really interesting hearing about those two tragedies, but all the good that has come out of them and how he spoke about what's come out of them since then.

Claire: 7:36

And I think off the back of that Loss 27, which was Do you remember what Clarissa was talking about in Episode 30 Clarissa Moll in Episode 38. Again, a public grief that she had to deal with because her husband, Rob was in a hiking accident, which made the news. So again, it was interesting talking to her about that public aspect, and again with Carol Tyler in Episode 40, where she tracked loss of a cartoonist, which was her husband, Justin Green, who was also again, fairly well known in that area. So interestingly, we've had three that have had to deal with that public grief, which we haven't really dealt with before in the podcast, compared to the private grief and what the two looked like next to each other, like you said, uniquely, he had two different griefs in two different areas, but these other ones had public grief to go through while privately working out what to what boundaries to about sacred ground? put around it and how to work through that. Sacred boundaries.

Chris: 8:28

Sacred boundaries, rather. I obviously don't remember that well! Well, half of it. But that I found really useful because that caused me to question how we've been with our childlessness. I think we've gone so far down the route of being open and honest and sharing as much as we can, certainly with those who are interested those that inquire, but what she spoke about was having sacred boundaries, where maybe there are some things that you don't share some things that you keep private, that for your own good, and for your own memories, not everything needs to be shared unnecessarily. So that was quite challenged to me to consider that.

Claire: 9:03

Yeah, it's a tricky one, I think, because we've spoken to people who have lost a child or a baby. And they've said that not sharing a pregnancy, for example, can be difficult, because then when you grieve it, if you lose one, you're not grieving it with anyone else, because no one knows you've been through anything. So you have to almost carry on as normal. Whereas if you tell people you get to grieve with other people with a bit more support, I also see the necessity for keeping things close and grieving privately, in your own home was some things. So I think I'm learning a lot about where those boundaries are and how they're different for everybody, but you have a choice to put those boundaries in place quite tightly, or to make them you know, wider if you if you're someone who likes to share these things. It's tricky. And I guess, when you throw in things like social media, it gets even more complicated because you're thinking, How much do I share? How much do I keep private? and that's something that everybody needs to decide.

Chris: 9:54

Two of our episodes that are quite the opposite and a very public, you've already mentioned Carol Tyler, Episode 40 do go back and listen to that, because she's talking about the use of art and creativity and illustration to help with the grieving process. As you mentioned, loss of a cartoonist there has been just in green, but just quite a few other major losses that she experienced in her childhood and growing up, and how she turned that into autobiographical comics. So a very public platform there, and the start of something quite a quite a major movement that has become to share just the innermost and the darkest places in illustration, just fascinating.

Claire: 10:35

Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, we've got a very public arena on almost all of these 10 losses. Because you've got, you've got Alicia Williams, who was big on social media, so her story is known a bit. You've got grant whose son was very big on social media, you've got Sasha, who's an author was married to someone who was fairly well known in certain areas. You've got Steve who dealt with murders, which would have been in the newspapers and been out and about, you've got like Mick, Clarissa and Carol, like we spoke about, you know, there's a lot of people here who are dealing with things in a public arena in some way, which alters how you grieve, and what that looks like, and how they process it.

Chris: 11:11

Although with Alicia in mind, Episode 30, talking about loss of a childhood, so as you alluded to there, she's famous pretty much for Tiktok, and Instagram videos, where she cleans up gravestones, cleans them up, makes them sparkle, does quite a bit of work, and she has millions of people viewing her videos, but then how many of those actually know the reasons the heart the personal tragedy and journey behind those videos. It was really interesting for us to use the episode that we spoke to her to give her an opportunity to share her story, that really powerful quote that she said, 'the only place she felt she belonged is with the dead'. And that was what took her into a cemetery. That was where she felt she belonged. And from that platform, now she's rebuilt her life again. And literally is bringing life from death and doing something that's that's attracting millions of people but fascinating that, you know, I don't imagine many of those millions of viewers know the person behind the work.

Claire: 12:07

No, well, that episode has not had millions of downloads, that's for sure. But I think it's a very interesting insight into social media that we take a lot from people, and what they can give us and her videos are quite sought after for the sound of them for the kind of cathartic watching of something being cleaned. But how much do we really know about the person behind them? And how much are we really interested in what the story was that led them to that in the first place? Probably not much.

Chris: 12:31

Similarly, with Grant Morgan, who we spoke to in Episode 31. Really enjoyed speaking to Grant, he was talking about the loss of his son Jack, who's 22 years old, who had cancer. And interesting how Jack had built up a really big following with social media tracing his journey with cancer. And then the family have continued that in keeping those accounts very alive, very active, sharing information and raising awareness.

Claire: 12:55

Yeah, he had a 'Be more Jack' campaign going on, because he just wanted the attributes of his son to, to live on through other people really, and to continue to inspire those going through hardships, as well as cancer. And so yeah, it was a really unique way of seeing how, again, people process grief and what is useful afterwards, whether it's campaigning, or whether it's continuing on something that the person you've lost has already started, or whether it's through some kind of art or other expression or writing, there's lots of different ways people want to memorialise what they've lost, but also just continue some good work that they'd already started. And Jack was a great example of that he was fairly well known. He had a lot of followers on Instagram. And you know, I've spoken to people who had heard of him and his journey just completely outside of us knowing anything about it. So you had a big impact and Grant's really keen to keep that going.

Chris: 13:46

Well, that's social media. We'll just talk about Sasha Bates, and what she's written in just a moment, but you're a writer you enjoy writing, if you lost me, if I were to die, would you write about my passing?

Claire: 13:58

Who says I haven't already?

Chris: 14:00

Oh.

Claire: 14:05

I think I would definitely go to something creative to work through it. But I think that's because I'd be on my own. And there wouldn't be any other distractions of other things to do. I mean, I think, you know, when we speak to people like Clarissa who had children to raise when she lost her husband, there's that distraction of I've got to keep going. I've got to keep life going on. We've heard people talking about children who they say after you lose somebody there, what keeps the day to day going, I had to get up. I had to make breakfast, I had to keep functioning because I had to do it for them. So I think when you're on your own, I feel like yes, like in the same way that Sasha Bates did, she wrote about her husband after but I think I would do something similar. I'd want to turn that grief into something useful and it would probably be writing, it probably won't be art.

Chris: 14:50

Speaking to Sasha for Episode 32 was one of the conversations that I was most intrigued about, I think in advance because her story is so similar to what ours has been her journey through childlessness. And meeting a soulmate marrying her soulmate. And then just having this life planned out of adventure of resource thinking, so much of this we can do together, and we'll enjoy doing it as the two of us. And then lo and behold, completely out of the blue, she lost her husband. And I just made me think, crumbs, this could be our story.

Claire: 15:25

Yeah, it's, it was very close to home. I think it's something that you think about, but then it's a bit frightening, because you think, well, if you know, if we lose one of us, too, that's 50% of our family gone. You're literally two join together, and then you're split apart. And it's just you again, and the idea of having to start life again, from that point, feels very daunting, because you know, you might end up I don't know, if you meet someone else, you might end up going through the childlessness thing all over again, it's there's lots of stuff there that I think, what on earth would that look like? So yeah, it's not that comfortable to see, but I was really pleased that we did it. And I still think it's really important to push into those groups that you're most scared of facing to hear what people have to say about them, because they're never as frightening as you make them out to be in your head. So it's not like we're interviewing somebody who sat on the floor, crying, 10 years later, and they just never got past it, or they just sort of slowly died in a heap. It's like, actually, here's somebody who's functioning, here's someone who's written a book, here's someone who's helping others, here's somebody who's finding new ways to cope while remembering everything she loved about her husband. And so I find it really encouraging. And just very, it sort of takes away the fear of these situations. I think when you see someone going through it for me anyway, so I found it quite helpful and very inspiring. One of the things that Bill always said is stuck with you, and I still hear it now, so that was quite a sweet little thing that was left behind.

Chris: 16:49

Go on.

Claire: 16:50

It's the best thing you've ever done.

Chris: 16:53

That's true. I use that quite a lot now, which was part of her story. And I think you genuinely quite like it, don't you?

Claire: 17:00

I think it's a lovely idea. I think her whole Herman was 'Be more Bill'. And one of the things he did was tell her regularly, whether it's a massive thing in life, she'd done like, retrain, or whether it was finding the ketchup in the fridge -'that's the best thing you've ever done.' And he genuinely meant it and wanted to encourage and inspire other people. And I just thought, what a lovely legacy to leave behind. So yeah, I'm very happy with that statement.

Chris: 17:20

You recently crocheted a dish cloth. [laughs] And I can't remember if I said to 'do you know what, it was the best thing you've ever crocheted'. But considering you've like also knitted, huge big blankets that we love. Would that not be seen as being sarcastic, if I said to you, 'that's the best thing you've ever crocheted'.

Claire: 17:37

If someone tells you that you've done something really well, I don't know how you could take that badly, I think it's always a lovely thing to tell someone.

Chris: 17:43

Great. I'll keep saying it. And we had an invite from her to the launch of her most recent book, which we very nearly went to, you'd have been quite excited about jumping on a train and heading to London to go to a book launch because it's your thing, but unfortunately, on that occasion, we just couldn't make it happen with the calendar.

Claire: 18:00

Yeah, it was a shame.

Chris: 18:01

Another chap who's had a couple of, well got a second book in the process was Steve Keogh.

Claire: 18:05

Yes.

Chris: 18:05

Our former murder detective.

Claire: 18:07

Well, he's not 'our' former murder detective.

Chris: 18:09

Well he was on the podcast, our guest who happens to be a former murder detective. That was eye opening, wasn't it?As a slightly unusual episode talking about the loss of life through murder.

Claire: 18:19

Yeah, that was brilliant. I think he was so down to earth, which I don't think we were expecting. We're expecting a very policey type interview with, you know, short, sharp answers that were very to the point. He was really, you know, lovely to chat to, and just covered all the kinds of losses that he would have dealt with, whether it was, you know, the victim's family or the person that was accused and their family, the people involved in the process and everything you know, himself and very honest about what he possibly had grieved what he might not have grieved, whether he grieved well or not, it was a really interesting insight into that kind of job and what you need to deal with and how you need to cope with it, you can't get emotionally involved in everything you're facing.

Chris: 19:00

But then he was quite clear on all he was all he was facing, how that leaked into areas of his life, unwanted areas of his life, like marriage breaking down, parenting, dreams, remember, we're talking about dreams, how he used to get some really nasty, vivid dreams. And as soon as he retired from the role, they stopped. So really interesting how we our grief can leak into all areas of life, if you know even if you're not aware of it. Another professional person that we spoke to was Lis Whybrow.

Claire: 19:27

Yeah, it was a good episode because it was one of those losses, I think that we were keen to cover when we started the podcast of the things that aren't obvious and they're not necessarily things people see as loss or see the need to grieve but are things that happen to all of us at some point in different ways. And that was loss of an accreditation in Episode 36. And she'd had a 30 year law career, set up a foundation that worked with bringing lawyers together in that particular area of wills and probate and all things to do with death and dying. And then had to step away from it. And that was a huge loss. And she realised all these emotions bubbling up when she had to finally make a decision not to renew. So it was very interesting to chat to her about what that felt like and how she worked through that. And what it was it was going through her mind when she was processing it.

Chris: 20:13

I think it's a really big area of an identified grief around the workplace. I think having spent so many decades for Lis certainly investing in and giving of yourself to a role, building identity, knowing you've got responsibility and power and position, and then to choose to come away from that. That's a that's a big blow. And then even though she was going into something that she really loved, which was into grief counselling, and helping people with loss, as we like talking about with this podcast, she was getting reminders from her former identity, and they sort of kept this very gentle knocks on the door. And eventually, she realised in are actually quite emotional about this, that last reminder came and I'm not going to renew. That means that, you know, I'm not part of this organisation that she helped set up. And then suddenly, you know, it hits her quite emotional.

Claire: 21:02

Yeah, I think she had something that I was quite envious of in. It's the same with Jennifer Bute as well. They had careers that they loved, and that they were really invested in, and that they just got a lot back from. And, you know, I don't know what that's like, I haven't had that. So I don't know what it would be like to lose that, but I love the idea of having something that you care that much about that when you lose it, it's like losing a person almost. It's this sort of whole chunk of your life that you've given so much effort to. And then it's gone. And we're Jennifer in Episode 43. We spoke to her about having a diagnosis of young onset dementia, which meant she had to give up her career as a GP, and what that looked like, and how it took away from her a lot of things not just career, but also a lot of day-to-day things that she relied on, like just knowing who people were and recognising people when she walked into her lounge and not knowing who all these people were in the lounge and all these kinds of things, I think. And that was a really interesting one because she was wanting to use her loss, not just to do the grief well, but actually to take it one step further and actually help others through it. So she really saw it as a teaching opportunity to show other people - this is what loss looks like, this is how you can help people. And I want to help you on that journey. And she saw that as a privilege.

Chris: 22:19

And she also talked about word salads.

Claire: 22:21

She did yeah. What a great expression.

Chris: 22:25

Really rare to speak to someone who has dementia, and we got her on a good day because she says he gets tired, and that's when things can go a bit pear shaped, but speak to someone who has dementia talking about the experience and teaching people out of it. I think one of the things that struck me about that chat with her was how she put into words, the privilege, the position that we have those of us that have gone through loss. Those of us that recognise grief, what a what a place, we have to be able to teach others out of that position. And what a privilege that is to have the opportunity to teach people that was quite eye opening, really because you think, Okay, I see that didn't always feel like it isn't as I want to just wallow and just shut the door. But actually, no, that's that's quite a platform that you're given to be able to educate others.

Claire: 23:09

And her book 'Dementia from the Inside' talks about her story, but also all the practical things she's put in place to adjust her life day to day to cope with dementia, and it's just fascinating. She's just done so much stuff that really helps her identify, for example, like what's a hallucination, she recognises that if she sees a crocodile. That's because she spent a lot of time in Africa, but they're not in this country, well roaming around free, so she knows if I see a crocodile. It's not real, and I can laugh at that. And she uses another example in her book of an ambulance backing into her bedroom. And realising there's no way the average could get up the stairs, so therefore, it's not real, so she can laugh at it. And just putting all these things in place, she she gave me a completely different take on dementia, which I think is what she's trying to do is to educate people and say,' Look, this isn't what it is, we can help this like in the same way now we help people recover from strokes fully when we didn't use do we should just leave them. Well, now we can help people more with dementia'. And she was very confident about being able to connect with people at all stages of dementia, just to be able to help unlock them and bring them out again. And I think it's it just made me fear the diagnosis a lot less, because of all these different practical things you can put in place and because of how she was tackling it and dealing with it. And the other thing that I thought was really important that she mentioned was about how we have this tendency to try and separate off disabled people or people who are going through things in a separate bubble, whereas actually she says she likes to be laughed at, that's one of the things she makes her feel included. And we can have this kind of opinion that we shouldn't laugh with people going through things and she used the example of the mother with the child where the the disabled child fell off something and the mother laughed, and she sort of said,'Oh, that's awful. Why are you laughing?' And the mother said,'Well, I'd laugh at your child, if it happened. You'd laugh at your child, you know, I need to treat him normally.' And I think that's so important that we need to remember that as well to just try and, it's hard to get everything right with all these different griefs, but people just generally want to be included and treated normally a lot of the time and how important that can be to not isolate people.

Chris: 25:10

Right, there you go, that's the last 10 losses and the guests that we've spoken to. If any of that has sparked a thought about a friend or member, the family that you know, that face something similar, or preparing for something similar, then best thing to do is to share that episode with them. So we'd really appreciate you sending on these episodes, word of mouth is the best way to promote The Silent Why podcast. And definitely leave us a review on online on your podcast provider, wherever you're listening to this. If you can rate us or leave us a review, we'd really appreciate that because that will push us up and push us in front of the eyes of other people using the same app.

Claire: 25:46

So overall, this whole podcasting experience thing that we're doing what's been the most surprising thing about it for you so far?

Chris: 25:52

Definitely the time it takes, I think I knew is gonna be hard work. For you it's become a full time job. For me. It's a hobby, but it's almost a part time job on top of my full time job. So it takes many hours to do it to do it well, certainly, I hope we're doing it.

Claire: 26:06

Yeah. Who knows?!

Chris: 26:08

Would you have a different answer to that?

Claire: 26:10

Yeah, maybe I would. I don't know. I think it has surprised me how much effort it takes to do it. Well, but then we're not even doing it. To the extent that would be really well, you know, like with social media, there's so much more stuff we could be doing. And I think I've had to recognise you can't do everything. So just to even get to this level, the amount of hours it takes has surprised me. Yeah. I mean, it gets a bit quicker as you get used to these things. But ultimately, it's always gonna take a long time.

Chris: 26:37

And as well as that, what's the best thing about this podcasting experience?

Claire: 26:41

Best thing is definitely meeting the people. I love chatting to people, I love going deep with conversation, I love that I can do that within minutes of meeting them, we just go straight into the heart of of their grief, really. And I think that's just such a privilege. Love it.

Chris: 26:55

The most recent Episode 43 with Jennifer buttes was the first one we're done with somebody in our house.

Claire: 27:02

Yes, that was exciting.

Chris: 27:03

And we had around for tea, we cooked her potatoes. Imagine how much time it would take if all of our guests I mean, it would be fabulous if we will win with each of them in person, but imagine how much time would spend if we recorded all of them in person.

Claire: 27:15

Yeah, it'd be a long time, we have trouble already not getting too interested in guests and trying to ask loads of questions that aren't relevant to the loss, so if it's in person over dinner on my word, they'd be here for hours.

Chris: 27:24

Okay, then, what's the worst thing about our podcasting experience so far?

Claire: 27:29

Probably the transcripts.

Chris: 27:31

Really?

Claire: 27:31

I think they're really important. And I think that otter does a great job in that's the AI we use in transcribing them, for me mostly.

Chris: 27:38

That's the AI we use! So much jargon.

Claire: 27:41

But yeah, I still have to go through them word word for word, and a one hour podcast can probably take nearly two hours to do and but as the AI gets better, hopefully I won't need to do that. But at the moment, it's not accurate enough that because it's such a personal thing they're talking about, I can just let it go out as it is. So that I always feel like I'm ready to put the episode out and then that needs doing last minute. And it's just like, Ah, it's never the funnest thing to do.

Chris: 28:03

There's a stream of just humour or comedy, though, in you publishing some of the translations to does, right. There's some of the sentences in podcasts. And then you read the text, the amount of times you call me through. Say 'Chris! Come and look at this!' And it's sometimes it's quite dangerous. It's translated stuff quite badly.

Claire: 28:25

What about you? What's the best and worst thing so far about podcasting?

Chris: 28:29

The best thing, similar to yours is definitely about the people. And not just about meeting them. I think getting the reactions that we've heard from some of those that have listened, and we occasionally get emails, and even the guests that we invite on, we speak to, getting their responses to what they hear, and has been really valuable, really meaningful. So that's been great. The worst thing about it, I got to be careful what I say here, it's probably to do with our marriage.

Claire: 28:55

Brilliant.

Chris: 28:57

Because we've always said, we've mentioned before on the podcast that we've said we can't work, we can't work together, we wouldn't ever work together and here we are working together on this podcast. Most of the time it's great, but it's you know, it's hard doing something where you're so much editing you know, it's a very individual role, yet wanting to do it together. And in both having very different ideas of what's acceptable, what's perfection, what we're aiming for.

Claire: 29:24

I think we know what perfection is, it's whatever your take on it would be.

Chris: 29:30

Put those claws away!

Claire: 29:31

We do we do record in a very small, very hot room. I don't think that always helps.

Chris: 29:37

No. And we try and hug before, when we record we know we have a hug and even that can be quite hot. Ooo

Claire: 29:44

Sometimes it's like, it's too hot to hug! Not like that!! This is a very different kind of podcast. So yeah, I think it can be it can be testing and I know it's good for us. And I think we're getting a lot better at it, working together working in a team, but it's yeah, it's it stretches us challenges us. It does, we are both, we both have very high levels of expectation, but they're very different. And I think that's where we fall short, we both want it to be the best it can be. But it will be two very different podcasts if we were left to our own devices. So it's kind of coming up with that middle ground.

Chris: 30:21

The highlight of this episode, as in the previous ones, where we reflected on the 10 batches, batches of 10 losses, is of course, the...

Chris & Claire: 30:32

Hermontage!

Chris: 30:33

So what is a Herman?

Claire: 30:34

A Herman is something that the guest has nurtured, fed, had on their journey with them, they want to pass on to somebody else, something that they've sort of grown in them that's done them some good, and they're like, I want to share this with others.

Chris: 30:47

So it's based on the friendship cake thing, in this recent batch, Lis Whybrow was very aware of the friendship cake. So here we go, here is the bit that we've been looking forward to a short recap on the last 10 loss guests, Hermans.

Chris & Claire: 31:04

Hermontage!

Alicia: 31:04

Don't ever stop learning, learn something new every day. If it wasn't, if it was not for my quest, to learn, and for more knowledge, I would not have found myself in the cemetery.

Grant: 31:20

My Herman is is this, and it's not easy. But try and hold that mirror up to yourself. And the things that you don't like in yourself, try and change, not for anyone else but for you. The things you do like in yourself, keep. Keep that negativity out. Don't sweat the small stuff. And just try and be the best version of yourself, while being kind and being good. And so it's what used to drive me as a police officer, doing

Sasha: 31:47

I think my Herman is trying to 'Be More Bill' in the sense that Bill always wanted to bring the best out of other people. To see the goodness in people and really help kind of try and push them to be the best they can be. And one of the things that Bill always used to say to me, several times a day, he'd say, 'oh, that's the best thing you've ever done'. And it was a joke, obviously, but he also meant he was constantly praising people. So the my Herman is to try and be more Bill praise, encourage, motivate and push people to be the best they can. the right thing. Doing the right thing isn't always the easy thing that's in any part of your life. And anything you do, there's usually a quick way to get somewhere and it was the right way. And I would always say, go the right way. Even if you don't get into where you want to get to do the right way. Because if you do it a quick way, it's gonna come back and bite you on us.

Lis: 32:59

What makes your heart sing. I want to encourage others don't do things just for the sake of doing them. If it doesn't make your heart sing, if there's a mismatch, if you're a square peg in a round hole, why are you doing it? I'd like to ask anybody, you know, they're feeling a bit uncertain. What makes your heart sing, and, and have the courage to jump in?

Mick: 33:23

Well, from my point of view, it is being involved in a campaign to try and make things safer, put public safety ahead of people's personal interest. I feel that if I and others hadn't decided to do this, things would have got worse in terms of gun violence in this country.

Clarissa: 33:49

My Herman is courage. I am not a courageous person. And in Rob's death, I've been forced to face the thing that I feared the most. And so the thing over time that I've realised I needed to nurture if I was to live again, was courage. It's has started very small for me in very tiny little steps. But it's something that I'm proud to say, is thriving. Now. I'm not as bold as I hope to be someday or brave as I think I could be. But it's something that's growing inside of me. And I'm grateful for it.

Carol: 34:24

It is really hard to maintain a belief that whatever your thing is that you want to do that you can somehow do that while many people give up on their dreams that requires risk. And it requires attention and nurturing. And so many times I could have said, 'Oh, these comics doesn't make any money or this marriages is bust', but there's a belief. There's this idea of fostering a sense of possibility that no matter what I need to do this thing. Just to always have a presence in the idea that it can happen.

David: 35:05

I think for me, it's a sense of optimism, like I don't, you know, just give people platitudes. But I'm really I'm an optimist and believe that we can learn, and we can be better. And we can increase our intentional drives. And we can, as long as we can think that tomorrow is going to be a better day, I can run further, I can go harder, I can be better. I really believe it's that it's a genuine sense of optimism.

Jennifer: 35:42

Well I think believing that everything is an opportunity. And it might be a challenge, but it's an opportunity, isn't it to help others or to learn something, because I believe, you know, nothing is really wasted in God's economy. And anything that happens to us can be used if we're willing to help other people. So I guess my Herman is that everything is an opportunity, or privilege even to find that opportunity.

Chris: 36:09

How lovely are they. Lots of little chunks of inspiration in there. That's the Hermans and the end of every episode we do we ask a guest 'What's your Herman?' So maybe you've got an answer yourself, and you could email us that at thesilentwhy@gmail.com. And I think when you hear those Herman's you realise what a resource library, this podcast is becoming.

Claire: 36:31

Yeah, I think it's exciting. I'm realising more and more what kind of a resource this could be the Police Chaplains USA, have started using it, and I've done a little video and interview with us about using it for police chaplains to educate themselves about all the different kinds of loss that people go through. We've had a contact from a hospital chaplain in South Africa who was listening and said he wanted people to listen to it out there. I think like you said, before, workplaces, it'd be great if HR departments, people like that just educated themselves around losses and what employees might be facing just to help work out what their needs might be, and just to be able to communicate with them and sit down and chat to people feeling confident around someone who might have lost a baby or lost a parent or just gone through even loss of a pet, you know, that can really affect someone when they go back to work the next day, things like this. So I think there's a lot of potential for this to help everyday people chat about loss with those around them, but also in specific work situations.

Chris: 37:26

And it's really important to remember as well, with all of this, that so much good can come out of the bad. Can joy can hope exist in every type of loss? And so far, yes, it can. There are a mixture of experiences that people are coming out with a lot of good stuff to talk about. So yeah, you know, I still find when I, someone says to me watch our podcast about in person, I tell them, it's about this and this and they go 'oh dear' you sort of see their face change. I think that's a bit depressing. But as David Richman said, if you know, if that is the case, and people say it's a bit depressing, then we're doing a really bad marketing job! So I need to push more, you know, there is good, there is hope there is joy that can come out of every type of loss. And this is the podcast to share that.

Claire: 38:08

Yeah, like you said, we're helping people learn how to face loss and how to go through it with inspiring stories, collecting hope. What's bad about that?

Chris: 38:16

And thank you for listening. We're really appreciative of your time. And those that join us on this journey is great. If you want to find out more about us and our story, our personal story with childlessness, and how that came about and what we've done with it and how we've moved on since then go back to Episode 3, our story - childless not by choice. And visit the website if you want to read more about us very simple website, www.thesilentwhy.com.

Claire: 38:40

What do you mean very simple?!

Chris: 38:43

Simple to remember. URL. www.thesilentwhy.com. And there's even a page on there that lists all the losses so far.

Claire: 38:51

Up to Loss 30. And there's links to each individual episode. So if you want to find more about a specific loss, you can just click on that and hear the episode.

Chris: 38:59

And there's social media, of course, as well. You can interact with us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, porr Claire has all of this to do.

Claire: 39:10

Thank you for listening all over the world as well. Do you know what are top listening country is at the moment?

Chris: 39:14

England

Claire: 39:15

Correct. Well, UK.

Chris: 39:16

What about second? United States?

Claire: 39:19

Yeah. Very easy. What about third?

Chris: 39:22

Germany?

Claire: 39:22

Nope.

Chris: 39:23

Don't know why I said Germany! Azerbaijan?

Claire: 39:24

Closer to the US

Chris: 39:26

Oh, close to the US? Canada?

Claire: 39:28

Yes, Canada is third. And then fourth, we've got a very loyal follower in the fourth.

Chris: 39:33

Is this David?

Claire: 39:34

It is.

Chris: 39:35

Yeah. distant family relation in Australia.

Claire: 39:38

Australia. That's right.

Chris: 39:39

Train driver - hey David!

Claire: 39:40

And then Germany.

Chris: 39:41

Oh, really?

Claire: 39:42

Yeah.

Chris: 39:42

Okay.

Claire: 39:43

And then Ireland and then South Africa.

Chris: 39:44

That was a lucky guest but actually educated guess.

Claire: 39:47

And actually, we have got a few listeners in the continent of Asia, Africa and South America, but not enough to qualify for one percentage, one percent? one percentage? So if you're listening in those countries, spread the word and we'll see if we can get got 1%

Chris: 40:01

And Antarctica?

Claire: 40:02

Zero. But then I don't think our host Buzzsprout actually does any recording of any figures for Antarctica, which is weird because somebody in Antarctica must be listening to a podcast.

Chris: 40:11

Probably a lot of fishing going on there. They've got time to to kill.

Claire: 40:14

Doesn't seem to be on the on the record list at all.

Chris: 40:17

Not yet. The Silent Why-ite out of Antarctica. Bit of a mouthful.

Claire: 40:23

Ooo weird.

Chris: 40:24

Anyway, so 30 down, 71 to go.

Claire: 40:29

Yep.

Chris: 40:29

I'm doing the maths in my head. You feeling confident?

Claire: 40:32

Yup. I am. Yeah, so far at this point, still good.

Chris: 40:35

And a couple of sneak peeks available for next few episodes?

Claire: 40:39

Yes, we've got Irina and Vlad and Peter.

Chris: 40:44

Wow, I'll be listening! They're episodes not a party we're going to!

Claire: 40:49

No, we've got some lovely guests booked up. And I've actually got about 10 guests already booked in the calendar. So I'm good for the next chunk of losses.

Chris: 40:57

Ok. That will see us through till winter maybe?

Claire: 41:00

Yeah, maybe.

Chris: 41:01

Yeah. Okay. There we go. I think we're done.

Claire: 41:03

And we're going to finish this episode, like we do every loss episode with a quote. And this one is one I put on social media recently from the Dalai Lama."Old friends pass away. New friends appear. It is just like the days and old day passes, a new day arrives. The important thing is to make it meaningful, a meaningful friend or a meaningful day."