Let's Chat... Funeral Celebrants II (with Sarah Boalch)

#076. Let’s Chat… about the ups and downs of life as a Funeral Celebrant in North Wales.

In these Let’s Chat episodes, I (Claire Sandys) chat to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us deal with, or prepare for, loss. Today's topic is funerals.

In this episode I’m talking to Sarah Boalch, a Funeral Celebrant from North Wales. Sarah runs ‘Ceremonies with Personality’ and helps families by creating bespoke ceremonies that cover every life milestone we might go through. But she didn’t set out to be a funeral celebrant, and in this conversation we talk about how her career took an unexpected turn. 

Sarah and I explore how she copes with funerals and grieving people (when she's someone that cries easily with others), what the process is when she initially meets with a bereaved family to get information for the funeral, and what has her best experience been at a funeral?

For more about Sarah visit her website or social media: 
https://www.ceremonieswithpersonality.com
https://www.facebook.com/ceremonieswithpersonality
https://www.instagram.com/ceremonieswithpersonality

And with each Let’s Chat guest I'm building a whole tool shed (metaphorically), of tools to help you face and get through loss, so far I've acquired spades, clamps, rakes, spirit levels, shears, forks, gloves, glasses and even compost and a chair. And Sarah adds something new to my growing bundle of tools - tune in to see what it is. 

And for my previous conversation with Funeral Celebrant, Evelyn Calaunan, in Australia, visit:
Episode 46 - https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/76a65230/lets-chat-funeral-celebrants

Transcript

Claire : 0:01

Hello there, and thanks for joining me, Claire Sandys, for another episode of Let’s Chat…on The Silent Why. A podcast exploring every kind of loss and grief to see if it’s possible to find hope in some of the darker areas of life. In these Let’s Chat… episodes I talk to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us either deal with or prepare for loss. And through them, because I wanted to capture some useful magic from each chat I’m building a tool shed(metaphorically) of equipment to help us face and get through loss and grief. At the end of each episode I ask our guest what sort of tool their subject is, and then I add it to my shed. So let’s see what today’s guest adds to my growing bundle of tools. In this episode I’m talking to Sarah Boll-ch from North Wales. Sarah is a Funeral Celebrant from ‘Ceremonies with Personality’, who helps families by creating bespoke ceremonies which cover every life milestone we might go through. But Sarah didn’t set out to be a funeral celebrant, and in this conversation we talk about how her career took an unexpected turn in that direction. Plus, as someone who easily cries when other people do, how does she cope with that when dealing with griefy people? And what exactly is the process when she goes to meet with a newly bereaved family and has to extract important information from them? And what has her best experience been at a funeral? Stay tuned to the answers to all these questions, plus a load more you probably didn’t even think to ask. So grab a cuppa tea, a coffee, or maybe a Penderyn Whisky (it’s a Welsh thing) only if it’s after lunch where you are of course, and relax with me and Sarah, as we chat Funeral Celebrants…

Sarah: 1:46

I'm Sarah Boalch. I'm a funeral celebrant based in Colwyn Bay, North Wales. And I basically help families by creating bespoke ceremonies in the local area. So I cover all of North Wales all the way along the north Wales coast. And I've been a celebrant for six years now. So it's been quite a ride, a lot of variety in my job, as you can imagine. It's really, really special to be part of really nice communities and close knit families, and you do you do find that families ask you back time and time again, which is is lovely. You know, as each generation passes, they come back to you. So it's, it's quite a privilege.

Claire : 2:29

That sounds fascinating. And you do a whole variety of different sorts of celebrations and ceremonies, don't you? So what's the spectrum of those?

Sarah: 2:36

Yeah, so I cover everything in in your life that is a milestone, basically. So from birth through to getting married to renewing vows later on in your marriage, right through till death. So yeah, I literally cover every kind of life milestone as you go through life. So it's great. You know, you really do you see quite a variety in my job, which is fantastic.

Claire : 3:03

Do you have an average week?

Sarah: 3:05

I mean, generally, my weeks are very varied. But I do tend to do most, most weekdays are taken up by funeral ceremonies. And then weekends tend to be maybe a wedding and a naming ceremony or maybe two weddings or two naming ceremonies, for example. And it's very busy. It's a very busy job, as you can imagine. I do try and squeeze in a day off now and again, so but yeah, my average week is maybe for funeral ceremonies, and then meeting families to arrange those ceremonies. It goes on. But yeah, when I'm not performing ceremonies, I'm either interviewing for them, or I'm writing them. So it's quite busy. But I love it. It's It's such I've said it before, but it is a privilege. It really is. You know, when you're meeting families, and you're going into, you're going into meet them when things are still very raw. I mean, we're talking a few days after their loved ones passed away. And I'm suddenly you know, an outsider coming into their their lives and asking them all sorts of questions. So it really is a privilege that they open up to me and they show trust in me to, you know, disclose their most precious memories and stories of their loved one. It really is very humbling. And one of the biggest parts that I love about my job, aside, of course, from being able to help people, which is the biggest part of my job, but it's also I also love hearing people's stories. You know, when you go back to war babies and things that they saw when they were children and things that they've remembered and passed down through their generations of their future family. You know, it's fascinating. And as you can imagine, it's I've I've met people from all sorts of walks of life and all sorts of backgrounds. You know, military families from the war and from more recent wars as well. It is just fascinating. Every single service is completely different. Because every single person that I have written about is completely different. And that's what I love about it. There's, there's no such thing as a generic service. When you book a funeral celebrant, it's fantastic. It's absolutely fascinating.

Claire : 5:19

And with like, the ceremonies you have, where do funerals fall on, you're kind of, I don't think 'enjoyment' is the right word, but out of all the different types you do, are they something that you particularly enjoy? Or you particularly find difficult?

Sarah: 5:30

So, a lot of my friends and family like, 'I don't know how you do your job', 'I couldn't do your job talking about death all the time, and you know, being around people who are really upset', but out of all the ceremonies that I do create and perform funerals are... as you say, you can't really say a 'favourite' because it's not, you know, it's a difficult time. But I wouldn't say favourite, I would say my'preference', because I feel that I am giving more back, if you see what I mean. So the families that I help are getting more from my services as a funeral celebrant than, for example, if someone was having a naming ceremony, I don't know that maybe that's just me, but I feel like I'm actually doing more good by helping people plan their their family's funeral ceremonies, you know, and, and we always seem a little bit more vulnerable at that time. So yeah, I do feel like I'm, I'm giving them a little bit more back.

Claire : 6:29

Like you said, you used the word 'privilege', and I think that that's what it is, isn't it? I think people are vulnerable when it comes to funerals and death, whereas with weddings, it is more of a celebration. So it feels like everyone's celebrating and wanting to help. So maybe it's just that privilege area of funerals where you get to step in.

Sarah: 6:43

Absolutely.

Claire : 6:44

It is a kind of work that some people won't understand, like, 'why would you want to be funerals all the time?' I do get it. I do verging at the local church just for funerals. I 'love it' (in inverted commas), it's just there's something about it that's just very real, but other people probably don't get it so much. So what is it about that that brought you into this kind of work?

Sarah: 7:03

The strange thing about me, considering it's my preference, is I never actually intended to become a funeral celebrant. So basically, the academy that I trained with, I went to do weddings and naming ceremony training, and having qualified from that the course coordinator pulled me to one side and she said, 'Have you ever considered becoming a funeral celebrant? I think you'd be very good'. And I kind of looked at her like a bunny and headlights, 'are you joking? I'm the biggest wuss, you know, if you were to start crying, I would probably start crying with you. So I thought 'oo I'll have a little think on it'. And I did. And I thought, well, there's no harm in doing the training, you know, do the training, and I'll see how I get on. And I just fell in love with it. I thought this is what I'm meant to be doing. It was just like a light bulb moment. And I'm lucky that that came when I was 30. Some people get to 15 still don't know what they were supposed to have been doing as a career, you know, so I'm really grateful that I was able to find that. But yeah, it just seems so natural. After I'd, I'd learned the process of separating your own emotions from someone else's service. You know, my little mantra that I live by, and I go through, particularly when I'm handling especially difficult funerals - 'It's not my grief'. And that's how I get myself through it. It's not my grief. I'm here to help them. I'm not here to cry alongside them. How's that helping them? It's not my grief. So once I've learned that, I've found that I was able to separate myself and that like I say, I just I felt like a duck to water. You know, I just for the first time I thought, yeah, this is this is 100% the job for me.

Claire : 8:46

And like you said, not many people find that in life, so it's a lovely thing to find at a young age and so unexpected, in such an unexpected area as well, which is amazing.

Sarah: 8:53

Absolutely, yeah.

Claire : 8:56

For people who are still a bit unfamiliar with the celebrant role, what is the difference between hiring a celebrant compared to the vicar or the funeral director or all the other people involved in funerals?

Sarah: 9:05

Okay, so a celebrant is generally somebody who's non religious. So they're not tied to any kind of, you know, church or anything like that any religious content. Some celebrants, like myself will include religion if you want to, so you can kind of get the best of both worlds and you still get to tell this person's story, but actually, we would like a little bit of religion because we think we will find comfort from it or, you know, Granny might find comfort if we say the Lord's prayer or something like that. So as celebrant is, in my opinion, the best of both worlds, so it's bringing more, more personality and also to offer something a bit more bespoke. You'll find that celebrants tend to take on less work than for example, a vicar and that's not to say that they're wrong it is just the difference. So celebrants do have the time to actually sit with you and say, 'Okay, what were they like? What was the character like?' and actually to create the service from scratch rather than we've got six funerals on today, and I'm gonna have to just fill in the blanks almost. But that's not to say that's wrong, because obviously you're there to, to create a service that offers comfort and a lot of people find a comfort through prayers and Psalms and, and that's what makes up the majority of their services. So absolutely, you know, I'm not here to say that, 'Oh, you shouldn't go with this or that', but a celebrant does offer something much more bespoke and much more personal, and much more human. In my my opinion.

Claire : 10:42

Yeah, I guess in the olden days, going back many years, you know, everyone might have been at church. So the vicar would have known the person and the family. Whereas nowadays, it's rare even with the ones I helped with, it's rare that the the vicar leading it would have any idea who the person was that was being buried. So there isn't that personal relationship anymore. So with someone like yourself you can actually involve yourself more in that story and find out about them.

Sarah: 11:05

Absolutely. And I think the last, the last survey was taken in 2021. And for the first time since British Records began, it was actually found that there are more people who classify themselves as non religious than actually religious. So there's only 47% of people in the UK who actually say that they are religious now. So it is meaning there, there was a lot more call for celebrants, you know, which is great for us celebrants because it's given us that opportunity to get out there into these communities, and to be helping people. And we're not necessarily as well known within the funeral industry to maybe older generations, they still are of the belief that, oh, it has to be a vicar. So to get the word out is brilliant and you know, that that's a big part of my job is spreading the word that these things are possible, you know, you don't just have to settle for this or for that, because that's how it's always been done. You know, times are changing. Funeral Directors, I've found, even in the last six years are much more receptive to celebrants, and they, they realise the value of celebrants, whereas even six years ago, some would take your card and kind of, you know, smile politely and you'd never hear from them again, because they would much rather have a religious figure performing the service. But yeah, it's there's definitely been a big turnaround for myself in the last six years. So the last record in 2021, I wasn't surprised by the results to see that, for the first time, non religious is more popular in the UK, it really didn't surprise me purely from the amount of work that I have taken on, and the amount of families that that I've been helping since then.

Claire : 12:51

So when you go in to see your family and just had a bereavement or a death, what does that look like? How do you get the information you need from them while they're in such a vulnerable position?

Sarah: 13:00

Okay, so when I go and see your family, I tend to, I dress smart, casual, rather than overly smart. I find from experience that when I'm a bit, a bit less formal, people are instantly more comfortable around you, if you go in all suited and booted. They think oh, God, you know, because we relate that back to when you were school and all the headmaster's here, you know, so I tend to go smart, casual and people instantly you see you and go, 'Okay, it's just another human being okay, well, you know, we're not being interrogated'. But I sit down with them, you know, we have a brew, and it's all very relaxed. And I might start them off by asking, 'oh, you know, that's, you know, really interesting

Claire : 13:42

Interesting. painting, where's that come from?' Or, 'Oh, I've seen your record collection, now you've got you've got a good taste in music', you know, and just try and strike at some commonality with them. And it puts people at ease, they don't feel like like I said, like, it's an interrogation. And then we get them settled down. And we have a little chat, I explain them through the process of the meeting that, you know, we're gonna go through a little bit of paperwork to make sure everything lines up with the funeral directors, because we want everything to go smoothly on the day. And then I start

Sarah: 14:11

And I think that's wonderful. Because grief does firing all sorts of questions at them, about the person. So where were they born? What did they do? What were their, you know, closest relationships, closest people to them in their lives? You know, can you tell me a little bit more about what they were like with this person with that person? And it's just very casual and very conversational. It certainly doesn't feel like an interview like tick, you've answered that question tick. You've answered that question. When I started out, I think I was a little bit like that purely from nerves because I thought I'm going in here and and you know, oh, God, what if they cry? and that was just me as a newbie, you know, but as I've gone on, people, people are gonna cry. It's upsetting grief is separation. So, you know, with that comes all sorts of emotions, but But yeah, I do keep things as light hearted as have a horrible way of making you focus on the worst bits, I possibly can. And it's conversational, and as comfortable as I possibly can. And I do find that you get more out of people that way. And, and the amount of people that I do get that kind of little text afterwards or a little note afterwards and say, 'do you know what, you put me at ease instantly. You know, I was so worried about the meeting, or the interview, or whatever they want to call it. But no, you just put me at ease. It was so lovely.' This is my favourite thing that they always say; 'It was so lovely to think about something other than the moment they died.' doesn't it, especially if someone's being poorly at the end. Dementia, for example, is an awful, awful disease. And it robs people of their memories of that person, as well as that as well as that person losing their memories. So I think it is so lovely to hear that they were able to take themselves out of the most recent, you know, hardest, gruelling part of this person's life, and go back and think, you know, yeah, I remember meeting them, we danced to this piece of music, we got married here, and it was wonderful and, and he just reminds me of happy times, and it gives them that that moments ago, actually, his life was wonderful. We have got things to celebrate, there is so much to celebrate. I always think it's like a time machine, you're able to whizz them back in time to, to when they were happiest with them. And it brings comfort or at least I hope it brings comfort, and that's the impression I've received from them.

Claire : 16:37

It gives them permission doesn't it? When someone else comes in and asks you those questions, it gives you permission to actually smile.

Sarah: 16:42

Absolutely.

Claire : 16:43

Or remember someone fondly. Because you do feel like you know, you're so locked in the sadness, and you feel like that's the right thing to do, you should be just only sad. Yeah. But actually, when someone else gives you that permission to think back and think, oh, there was that time. And it's lovely that you create that for them. I noticed as part of your branding, you call yourself Ceremonies with Personality, what does that bring to it for you that that makes it a bit different?

Sarah: 17:05

So I always try to encompass that person's personality within their ceremony. Because that's what makes us unique. And that is what's going to, that's what people are gonna remember when we when we do you know, eventually pass is our personality, our character, and you know, the way that we laugh or how we are around our family and friends and how we cope under pressure, or, you know, all of these things that make us who we are form our personality. And I do think it's so important to include that there's been many, many ceremonies, not just funerals that I've been to in the past, and I walk out and I think, 'who was that about? because it's, it's generic, it's literally just, there's blanks, and they put their names in, you know, and that's fine, if that's what you want. But I just think giving people that option to add in a little bit of personality and a bit of, you know, oh, yeah, that's exactly what he was like, I hear that so much as well, when the women leave, and the funeral directors that you've spoken to a little possibly have said the same as when they're leaving, all we hear is 'oh, you know, that was just like Fred. Oh, yeah. I remember that about him', rather than just you know, 'thank you, Vicar' or 'thank you, Sarah, that was lovely'. It's very generic. And I hear so much as well, especially older people, they come to me and they go, 'I know I shouldn't say it, but I really enjoyed that'.

Claire : 18:36

And I bet you love that as well.

Sarah: 18:37

Absolutely. But yeah, that's where the personality comes from. As well as the fact that I am quite a big personality myself, not so much in your face, and I'm going to overpower anything. But once you've met me, you kind of remember me. So that's that's a good thing. I think, well, I hope. So it's it's putting my personality across to make people chill out and relax and chat openly and feel more at home and more comfortable. And it's also pulling out the personality of the person that we're there to celebrate over there to talk about.

Claire : 19:08

You know, as far as funerals go, I suppose they must have kind of ups and downs as to whether people actually want them. How's that looking at the moment? What's the general feel in the UK for people wanting funerals? And has that dropped off at all? Or is that really popular at the moment?

Sarah: 19:21

I mean, there was something called Pure Cremation, which is becoming more and more popular in the UK. People don't want the big fuss of a funeral service. I wouldn't say it's a concern, but it is something that is becoming more popular and we are seeing more and more of. Especially when I'm visiting crematoriums, obviously, a lot of the time they have a list of the services for that day, and a lot of them are private cremation. So yeah, that is quite a big change again, in the last six years, it's certainly something in the last 18 months, two years that I've seen a big increase in in the industry, so yeah, it's changing all the time.

Claire : 19:58

What sort of role do you think the funeral actually plays in the grieving process, how important do you think it is?

Sarah: 20:04

For myself, speaking from a personal point of view, during lockdown just as an example, I lost one of my very close friends, one of my longest standing friends during lockdown. And we weren't able to go to the funeral, we were able to watch via webcast, which is video stream, live streamed. But we didn't get that same closure, as I think if we would have had attended in person. So I think for myself, the funeral ceremony is a huge part of the grieving process and the healing process. So it does give you that closure that okay, we have acknowledged that this person has now died, we've reflected on what they've brought to our lives, and how part of them will continue. So their legacy, what is going to be remembered about them and will always be celebrated and passed down generations? I don't know if it's the same in your family. But I've heard stories about my great great grandmother, for example, because those stories of her have been passed down. And a lot of those stories are learned at funerals. So I think funerals are so important. There's such such a big part of, you know, getting closure, the healing process after suffering grief. And it really is a special opportunity to tell that person's story. You know, each of us are walking our own path here, and we may not always get it, right. But we do get a lot of things right. And we build relationships, and we bring something to this earth that is unique to us. And I think, to not have a funeral and to not hear that story or to not hear about that person's contributions to the lives of their loved ones. It's a little bit sad for me. Each person is different, obviously, when it comes to a funeral. But but for myself, I think a funeral is is necessary. It's a necessity, for my opinion.

Claire : 22:11

Yeah, I spoke to a funeral celebrant from Australia. And she was very keen on the message that the funerals are for the living, they're not actually for the dead. And a lot of the time we focus on what the dead person wanted. But actually, it's the living people that are going through the grieving and that hear the stories and I've really, over the course of the podcast, changed my mind a lot on the funeral process. I've really thought coming into it, I would have been somebody who I just wasn't fussed about that bit. You know, it just always feels like it drags up emotions again, you're kind of just getting past it. And then it's like, oh, I don't want to go and it feels so sad. And I really was just like, ask skip it. But having done this podcast, I've just completely changed my mind on the how important that is to realise just the part it plays in grieving. And like you said, recognising whether it's being thankful and grateful for what you had or whether it's actually making you come to terms with what you've lost. I've very much changed my mind on how important they actually are. So yeah, I'm very pro-funeral now.

Sarah: 23:06

Good. I'm glad to hear it.

Claire : 23:07

We shut away death enough as it is in this country.

Sarah: 23:10

Absolutely.

Claire : 23:11

So to go straight to the whole, no funeral, I just think it's just, it's asking for trouble, whether that's 10,15,20 years time, it's going to be I just put out a lot of people gonna be walking around saying,'Well, my mum and my dad or whoever requested this, and we did it, or we chose to do it, and I wish we hadn't because I never really fully faced the fact they'd gone' because it's not like we sit around with open caskets very often in this country, or we even see death at all before that. I can't help but think it's not going in a direction that's going to be healthy. But thankfully, people like you around, it opens up another option, they don't have to just have this generic church service, they can actually have more of a tailored service. You must have had some like unusual requests and seen some things that are a bit different for funerals. Is there anything that you've had to really keep a straight face at or that has really shocked you? [laugh] I know you have to be careful how you say stuff here, have you anything really unusual that you've either really enjoyed, or just what you weren't expecting?

Sarah: 24:11

Erm, well, there's been a lot of a lot of occasions that we've had a good old giggle at a funeral, believe it or not. There was a quote that I had to quote back which I won't quote here because it's it's very rude and you've never imagined that you could ever say it in that kind of setting. But the entire chapel erupted into laughter and I mean, erupted. It was brilliant. It was a good two minutes before I could carry on talking, they were laughing so much. But I would say one of the most recent things that I absolutely loved, because it was so much fun, and it really reflected the person's character was, it was just a few days ago actually, everybody who attended stood up and sang Green Green Grass of Home by Tom Jones, as if it was a hymn.

Claire : 24:59

Brilliant.

Sarah: 25:00

It was fantastic. And people were dancing and singing and laughing. And it was wonderful, because that was her favourite song. And, you know, she'd taken her children to see Tom Jones in concert, you know, when they were younger and, and it was just such a happy moment, I just thought, yeah, this, this is what my job is about this is, you know, it's, it's giving that, that opportunity to have a little bit of fun if that was their character, or, you know, to add these little unique, quirky bits that you wouldn't necessarily get otherwise. Yeah, but yeah, it really was so fun. And you could just look around the room and just see the smiles. And it was really wonderful. And as people were leaving, they, you know, you'd hear things like, 'Oh, she would love that', you know, and that was exactly what the client said, who was her daughter, she said, 'Oh, mum would have loved that', and I said, 'Good. I'm glad', because that's what we're going for, you know, and that would have helped the daughter and the people there I'm sure, with their healing process. So it was absolutely brilliant. I have to say it was one of the highlights of my career was seeing all these wonderful people all up and dancing and singing to Tom Jones.

Claire : 26:11

What a send off.

Sarah: 26:13

I know, right?

Claire : 26:15

Are there any kind of particular aspects of your work that are particularly difficult, because a lot of people that we talk to just find chatting to grieving people in itself hard? And obviously, you're doing that regularly. So a) have you got any tips for anything, that's a good way to go for that, but also, there are bits that you still find hard?

Sarah: 26:33

Yeah, so the hardest part of my job is when somebody has passed, what people would describe as 'before their time', so younger people, children, people who have died very unexpectedly, very suddenly, that's probably the very difficult part of my job is, it's a whole different approach. If you wouldn't approach the funeral of a two year old, for example, the same way you would approach the funeral for a 90 year old, you know, because people reach 90, and you hear sayings like, 'oh, they had a good innings', you know, and that brings people comfort that they had a good long life. So when you do approach funerals of someone who was very young, or it was very unexpected, it is a very different approach, you know, I don't go in there all,'Oh, tell me about their character'. And you know, it's much more, you know, putting that person back in control, and'what would you like to tell me about them?' it's giving them the option then to, to open up as far as they want to, it's, it is a very difficult part of, of my, my job, but I do still feel a lot of gratitude that I'm able to do that I'm in a position to sit there and talk to families who have been hit by grief in the worst ways imaginable. My biggest thing that I always say, when, with you saying, you know,'how do you approach people who are grieving?' And 'how do you talk to them?' - you just talk to them as you always would. Don't be afraid to mention the person's name, or to say, 'do you know, one of the biggest things I'll always remember is this...' Tell you stories, because by doing that, you're keeping that person's story alive, you're keeping that person's memory alive, and you're also reminding their loved one, that they'll be remembered. The worst thing you can do is avoid the subject or even worse, avoid that person altogether. You know, I've spoken to families, and it tends to be more so with older people as well, because older generations, it was all 'you can't ask them that, don't say that, you'll make them cry'. And although it's coming from a place of love, and a place of caring, it's not helpful for the person who's grieving. So one, I always remember one lady said to me, 'my neighbour keeps crossing over when she sees me. She keeps crossing the road'. And I thought, 'I'm really sorry, that's happening', you know? And she said, 'I know why, because she feels awkward. You never really know what to say when somebody's passed'. But yeah, I always, always encourage just coming talk to them, just ask them how their day was, ask them how they are, you know how they are, but ask them how they are given that opportunity to talk about it to get it off their chest, to say, 'you know, I'm having a really rough day today'. Invite them round for a coffee, anything, just don't ignore that person. And don't, don't ignore the fact that they're grieving, acknowledge it, you know, be brave, they might cry, that's fine. It's a completely normal reaction. If they cry, they cry, you know, you're there with them, and that will mean the world to them. So I do talk about that quite a lot on my own social media, about encouraging people not to be afraid of grief, not to be afraid of grieving people and to get out there and just talk to them. Send them a text message, anything just talk to them and give them the opportunity to talk back.

Claire : 30:03

Yeah, it's about getting out of your own way, really. People seem to not do it because they're scared that they'll get it wrong, or they'll say the wrong thing, or they'll have to deal with tears they don't have, or they might get upset themselves about it, kind of just say, 'well, it's not about you'.

Sarah: 30:14

Absolutely.

Claire : 30:15

So like you said, ask about the person who's, who's died even. The amount of mums we've had on here that have lost babies or young children that have said, I want to talk about my favourite memories, but no one ever asks me, you know, so even if you're brave enough stuff like that, if tell me what's your favourite memory? Or what do you remember most? They actually want to talk about it most of the time. It's just remembering you can't make it worse.

Sarah: 30:35

Yeah, that's it. And that's what I always say, 'what if I say the wrong thing?' there is nothing that you can say that would possibly make them grieve any harder than they already are. What you're doing instead is giving them the opportunity to talk about the person that they've lost and love, you know.

Claire : 30:51

They might use it as a story down the line of something stupid someone said to them, but it's not going to affect them at the time. [laughs]

Sarah: 30:59

Absolutely. [laughs] Yeah.

Claire : 31:04

I get how hard it is. But like you said, a go-to of just 'how are you?' is such a nice, easy, normal thing to say. And if you mean it, like you're not flippant about it, and you probably look at them and mean it - 'how are you?' Then, you know, what grieving person is not going to respond to that, in a way even if they said, 'I can't even talk about it right now'. Fine, like, great, well I'm here.

Sarah: 31:24

It's just reaching out that lifeline, isn't it?

Claire : 31:27

It is, yeah.

Sarah: 31:27

It is hard. But yeah, you just need to be brave, and just just get out there - 'How are you? How are you doing?' That's it, as simple as that.

Claire : 31:35

And it's so important what you said, which I think is really hard, probably for some personality types, especially, but that whole kind of 'it's not your grief', I think that is important if you're someone who can get too involved, you've got the people across the street, but then you've got the people who get too kind of wrapped up in it, whether they either get upset themselves inappropriately or whether they take it on. And I think I would be a bit prone to that I could take it on as my own grief, not in front of them, but behind the scenes, really get weighed down with it. And I have to remind myself, it's not my story - it's their story. And sometimes I see people and I think, gosh, the person who's carrying it's dealing better than you are like you've taken it on so hard, you know, you need to be careful to not over take it on.

Sarah: 32:12

Absolutely, I mean, that's the joys of being an empath, isn't it? You know, is that we do kind of you do take things on and you think 'oh god' and you think about the days after and I really, I feel awful, you know? But yeah, it's not for us to take on. It's it's a difficult lesson to learn. But like I say, it's become my mantra, I say it several times during a meeting, during a funeral, to remind myself that actually, you don't need to take this on, this isn't yours to process, you know, you're doing your role by being here.

Claire : 32:43

And you do that role better, because you're not taking it on.

Sarah: 32:46

Absolutely. Absolutely. You're that...

Claire : 32:48

Not just crying at the front!

Sarah: 32:48

They don't want me there blubbering and the lectern, do they?! [laughs]

Claire : 32:52

'This woman's rubbish.'[laughs]

Sarah: 32:55

'I couldn't understand a word she said!'

Claire : 32:57

They're not gonna be like, 'Oh, look, how moved she is!'

Sarah: 33:00

Definitely not.

Claire : 33:03

They'll be like - she's useless!

Sarah: 33:05

Exactly! [laughs]

Claire : 33:05

Have you had things that you're like, 'oh, gosh, I need to be careful here because my emotions are getting in the way'.

Sarah: 33:10

Yeah, definitely, it's more so with when you can relate to the person who's died, or you can relate to the person who's grieving. So, for example, shortly after losing my grandfather, I did a service for a grandfather. And it was a very similar background. So I was like, 'Okay, I'm really going to have to concentrate here'. You know, not my grief, not my grief. I mean, maybe you say it a few more times. But, but we got through there. And, and one of one of the biggest things that I I struggle with, still, as a celebrant, is seeing children upset at funerals. And that is something that that I do struggle with, but not outwardly. You know, there's been a few times where I am human. I'm although I, you know, I'm there to do a job, I am still human. And there's been a few times I've gone and had a little cry in my car afterwards, when things are especially sad, because sometimes they do they get they do get to your heart, you know, and it's mostly with children, when I see children very upset at funerals, I just think, 'Oh, bless their heart, going through this, at a young age. You know, that is especially difficult. But yeah, generally speaking, I've never cried in front of my client. So I'll just say that and I've never cried at the lectern, or where anyone can see me. So that's the main thing. But yeah, it can be difficult.

Claire : 34:30

I think there are moments when you know, when it would be appropriate for you to engage in that, if that's how you're feeling it. I know the when we spoke to Jonathen Harty, the funeral director, he said he was giving himself more permission now if he you know, had tears coming during something, he was just going to let them fall because sometimes you just need to feel that and it does show empathy. Obviously what like you said when you're at the lectern at the front, but it's important to feel it we're not very good at that in the UK there is this kind of let's just put it all inside and get IBS or some other kind of syndrome that was through stress.

Sarah: 35:02

It's not British!

Claire : 35:02

Exactly and we're all just wrecked inside. Has it sort of helped you personally, has it taught you things that you didn't expect through doing it, about your own maybe grief or loss?

Sarah: 35:13

Absolutely. Hugely. Like I say, when I when I started as a wedding celebrant, I was the kind of person who, if you were to burst into tears now I would cry with you, very much an emotional, outwardly emotional heart on my sleeve kind of person. And I am still that person as Sarah, not as Sarah the Celebrant. It's different. When I put my jacket on, that's like my armour, and I don't take it to heart. But yeah, it's changed my approach to grief and how I see grief. And although I still feel grief, certainly, you know, as hard as I would have before and maybe have a better understanding of how to process it nowadays. I was actually able to write and officiate my Nan's service. And my nan was like my second mum, she raised me well, mum and dad were working. And I was very, very close to her. And I never in a million years, if you'd have told me six years ago, you'll be able to do Nan's service, I would not have believed you. But I was able to do that, because she asked me to, before she went, she said,'I don't want anyone else to do it. I want it to be you'. And at first I was like, 'Oh, God, how am I going to do this?!' I just did it because it was what she wanted. And I wanted to celebrate her life. She lived to 92. She travelled the globe, she had a wonderful time, she had family, children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, great-great grandchildren, all who loved and adored her. And I thought, yeah, I want it to be a celebration, she wants it to be a celebration, so you know, she left very strict instruction, that it wasn't to be a morbid affair. And it was to be a good ol knees up. So that's what we wanted, that's what she wanted and that's what she got, but I never would have ever thought I'd be able to do that, so it obviously has changed something within my you know, brain or whatever, that I was able to do that. And I'm really glad I was.

Claire : 37:11

The initial reason I sell these episodes was to chat to interesting people, but also to help people facing loss in the future, so to look at can we prepare for these things? And how do you think thinking about funerals can help people or does it help people at all? Do you think it's a useful thing for us that are not having to plan one right now we've been thinking about what is it a good thing for us to be thinking about?

Sarah: 37:30

I think it's a good thing to be thinking about in the sense that what is available to us now, you know, we talked about people not realising that there is someone other than a vicar who can perform a service. And I think it's important to think about what we'd like our funeral to be like, although we're not hoping to die anytime soon, of course, it does take that level of that element of pressure away from those who are left behind to plan our service, the amount of times I hear 'I have no idea what she would have wanted, I have no idea if I'm doing the right thing here'. So maybe it people might think it's morbid, but jot down a few song ideas or, you know, make a note of a little poem that you like, again, these tiny little things will just take that little bit of pressure off when when your loved ones are already feeling overwhelmed. And it does help. I think it helps to talk about funerals and normalise talking about death. That's another big thing that I try and do on my social media is normalised talking about death. It is part of life, none of us are going to escape it. So let's talk about it. What do you think happens after you die? You know, or how would you think you will feel? You know, how does grief affect you? Let's talk about it. It's still a taboo subject, as you'll know from from talking to lots of interesting people that especially in the UK, we are very afraid of talking about death you go to other countries and like you say they have open caskets, they have public viewings, all these things and death is a very open subject. And it seems to be much more normalised like I say so. Yeah, that's my hope anyways to is to get the words about funeral out there talking about a funeral talk about what happens at a funeral people are often scared of the unknown so if they maybe know what to expect at a funeral that may be may take out an element of anxiety away from attending a funeral or from planning a funeral. I often hear as well, 'I've no idea what I'm doing. I've never been to a funeral before. I've never planned a funeral before' which is brilliant, you know, in a way that you've been lucky enough that you haven't been in that position before. But you're then absolutely clueless as to what you should be doing. Whereas if we talk about funerals, have those conversations that maybe people will have a better understanding of what to expect and what to do when the time comes.

Claire : 39:55

Yeah, definitely. Last question. We're chatting about funeral celebrants and the role they can play in loss and grief. So if they were a tool for helping people with this what sort of tool do you think they would be?

Sarah: 40:04

I think they would be, I know from my own my own garden shed that it's full of paint brushes and paint pots. And I do I associate celebrants with painting pictures, painting a picture of a person's life. So I would say a celebrant is is a paintbrush and a good old pot of paint and a blank canvas.

Claire : 40:27

A paint brush, always at least one of those hanging around a shed, and I don’t have one already so that’s perfect! If you want to find out more about Sarah, you can check out

https: 40:37

//www.ceremonieswithpersonality.com/ and I’ll put links in the show notes to her social media. This is actually the second chat I’ve had with a Funeral Celebrant and if you want to find out more about Funeral Celebrant life in Australia, tune into my previous Let’s Chat on this topic, Episode 46, with Ever-lyn Call oo naan (link in show notes). Thank you so much Sarah for your honest chat and the laughs and thanks to you for listening to The Silent Why podcast. If you’d like to support my work and help me continue it you can do that by buying me a fancy tea or supporting me monthly via buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy(link on the bottom of all my show notes). And a huge thank you and shout out to everyone that’s done that for me - it’s always a huge highlight in my week and contributes to the running costs and the time it takes to create the podcast every week. And if you’ve got a subject you’d like me to chat to an expert on, please get in touch via our social media or the website or via email: thesilentwhy @gmail.com …and Let’s Chat!