Let's Chat... Understanding ourselves better through the Enneagram (with Lori Alcorn)

#055. Let’s Chat… about you, me and personality.

More to the point, how can a personality tool lead us towards knowing more about who we are and how we can better navigate loss, grief and stress. 

These Let’s Chat… episodes pop-up every now and then instead of one of our 101 different types of loss, as I (Claire Sandys, co-host of The Silent Why podcast) chat to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us deal with, or prepare for, loss.

In this Let’s Chat… I welcome back Lori Alcorn, from Manitoba in Canada.

Lori spoke to us in Episode 24 about the loss of multiple pregnancies, infertility and childlessness. It’s from her experience in this area that she’s created ‘At a Loss Infertility Supports’ to provide resources like Life Coaching, therapeutic art journaling, grief gifts, and her book; The Pregnant Pause.

She's also a certified Enneagram Coach and uses it in her life-coaching.

The Enneagram is apparently “one of the most powerful and insightful tools for understanding ourselves and others. At its core, the Enneagram helps us to see ourselves at a deeper, more objective level and can be of invaluable assistance on our path to self-knowledge.” It has nine basic personality types, but as you’ll hear it goes a lot deeper than just those.

Lori and I explored how it can be of use to us in everyday life, but also when we’re going through stressful times like loss and grief.

For more about Lori, her website and social media visit: https://linktr.ee/AtALossInfertility

For more about The Enneagram:
The Enneagram Institute: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/
Free basic Enneagram test: https://personalitypath.com/

For an easy place to start your Enneagram journey, try the book, ‘The Road Back to You’ by Ian Morgan Cron & Suzanne Stabile
Available on Amazon:
https://amz.run/62yW (.co.uk)
https://amz.run/62yX (.com)

And with each Let’s Chat… guest I'm building a whole tool shed (metaphorically), of tools to help you face and get through loss. So let’s see what Lori adds to my growing list of tools.

Transcript

Claire : 0:00

Hello, and thanks for joining me for another episode of Let's Chat... I'm Claire Sandys, Owner, Managing Director, founder of The Silent Why podcast (call me what you will) and blog writer for the written and audio blog we release every Friday. In these Let's Chat... episodes I chat to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can either help us deal with, or prepare for, loss. And through them because I want to capture some useful magic from each chat, a bit like the Hermans that we collect on our usual episodes, I'm building a tool shed, metaphorically, of equipment to help us face and get through loss and grief. At the end of each episode, I asked our guest what sort of tool their subject is, and I add it to my shed. On this episode of Let's Chat... I'm welcoming back a former Silent Why guest, and now a lovely friend, Lori Alcorn, based all the way over the sea in Manitoba, Canada. Lori spoke to us on Episode 24, about the loss of multiple pregnancies, infertility, and childlessness. It's from her experience in this area that she's created 'At a Loss Infertility Supports' to provide resources like life coaching, therapeutic art journaling, grief gifts, as well as her book, The Pregnant Pause. In this episode, we're going to chat about one of the personality tools that she's certified in and uses in her life coaching called the Enneagram. This tool is hundreds of years old, and is used all over the world, helping people to better understand themselves, and I wanted to explore it to see how it can be of use to us in everyday life. But also when we're going through stressful times, like loss and grief. We're not going to go through all the different personality types in detail in this episode, but there are lots of links to follow up on this if you want to in the show notes. So grab a cup of tea, or coffee, or maybe a cold Caesar, which apparently is a cocktail in Canada, and relax me and Lori as we chat, understanding ourselves better through the Enneagram.

Lori: 1:54

So my name is Lori Alcorn, I live in almost the exact centre of Canada, near Winnipeg, Manitoba, I have quite a lot of hats that I wear during the week, but mostly it is split between two different areas; I am a life coach and so I use that to have therapy sessions with youth at risk in the town that I live in. And I also use it to provide infertility supports, I have a variety of different infertility supports that I provide to women who are going through any stage of that journey, and one of them is coaching when his care packages. I've also written a book for that. So yeah, that's what I spend a lot of my time on, and, of course, engaging in social media in those areas.

Claire : 2:38

And you're here today to sort of talk about something quite specific, which was new to me, I hadn't really heard about it, and I'm gonna let you pronounce it first to make sure that I get it right. So tell us what you're here to talk about.

Lori: 2:47

Yes. So I'm here to talk about the Enneagram, which is a personality tool. It's something I've been certified in, and it's part of my life coaching that I use to help people because part of the personality, obviously side of things will help people understand themselves in a coaching session, but also, the Enneagram specifically, really works towards wholeness and awareness of yourself in mental, emotional, physical and spiritual realms. So that's why I have used it.

Claire : 3:15

So yeah, that was completely new to me, Enneagram. I've come across other personality sort of things in workplaces and stuff like that; Myers Briggs and Insights and things we've, we've got over here, I don't know. Is it something, is Enneagram something that's all over the world? Or is that a Canadian thing?

Lori: 3:30

No, it is all over the world. It is actually hundreds of years old. And it's had inspiration from monks from 300 BC and I can't remember what part of Europe-ish area. But yeah, it's, it's had interest from Europeans and America. It's actually newer in America, North America, than it is the rest of the world. Yeah, it's probably more like the '50's, it's come over here.

Claire : 3:55

Right. Okay. So how did you come across it?

Lori: 3:57

Well, I am big into self improvement. I read a lot of books that just help me grow myself and you know, just continually working to develop and grow. And I read it in one of the books that I was reading, was just talking about how to be your truer self. And I had mentioned the Enneagram. And I always have personality profiles on my radar. I'm always curious about my results and what it says about myself and, and so as soon as I mentioned a new type of personality profiling, I was like, 'Okay, I need to Google search this'. And yeah, it was probably about 11-12 years ago or something like that.

Claire : 4:32

And then you've obviously taken it one step further than just learning about yourself and you want to help others. What made you do that? How did it fit in with what you were doing job wise or career wise for it to be something worth certifying in?

Lori: 4:42

Well, at the time, I actually wasn't anywhere in the realm of life coaching, or I'm also kind of pursuing counselling and it wasn't on my radar then yet, that started a few years later, but I think it was part of that journey. It was right about the time that I was struggling with infertility the most and I was going through a lot of just, yeah, questioning my purpose and identity at the time. And so for me, at the beginning, it was mostly just just absorbing everything, just what can I glean from this. But a few years later, part of that journey was discovering that I wanted to get into counselling and coaching and helping people. That's always been my nature, I was in admin at the time. And it's just kind of been my nature to support and help people. And so that just kind of went alongside that, but just in a more deeper experience, that I could actually really change people's lives. And part of the why I wanted to incorporate the Enneagram one day it was because of how much I saw it transforming my life. I had been making small steps of progress, I found throughout my different things that I found resources I was pursuing, to help myself grow. But I felt like I was making actual bigger, more permanent changes once I found out about the Enneagram, and what it was meant to do. And so yeah, those things that I was like, why I've lived this, I've head knowledge, why is it not sinking in? why am I not actually able to act on this and respond to the way that I want to all the time? Once I had some of the tools from the Enneagram, I was actually able to get out or some of those ruts, that, I was like more deeper knowledge, internal knowledge that I could actually retain and act on. So I knew one day that I wanted to use that to support the other work that I was doing through coaching and counselling.

Claire : 6:22

So tell us a bit about how the model breaks down personalities?

Lori: 6:25

Yeah, so there are nine different types, I mentioned that it talks about how it wants to talk about wholeness, mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health. And so it also incorporates what it calls Triads. And this may be a new word for a lot of people, but it's common terminology from psychology, that our psyches actually automatically organises our behaviours into these Triads, these groups of three. So pretty much all the different things that we have as behavioural tendencies, our psyches, like, 'Okay, you're going to be this kind, this kind or this kind of grouping'. And so for example, the most common one we're all pretty much aware of is intelligence, like IQ, that's your mental quotient. And then there's emotional intelligence, which is EQ. And there's also actually gut intelligence, which is GQ. And so that's just one example of these Triads that our psyche uses to identify like defaults and strengths and our behaviours and what we gravitate towards. So the Enneagram has used those Triads as well and created nine types.

Claire : 7:31

I'm just fascinated by that gut intelligence thing. I just wrote it down. I was like, what is that? How does that work?!

Lori: 7:37

It's quite fascinating. Yeah. It's like, when you talk to somebody who falls in the in the gut triad, very much, just something they know. They feel it in their body, sometimes physically, their gut area, but mostly it's they feel something in their body that just like resonates like yep, this is just something I know because of that feeling.

Claire : 7:53

Wow. That's fascinating. I love that.

Lori: 7:55

And it's kind of like you'll hear 'gut intuition'. A lot of people who use that, it's probably something along the lines of they have a high gut intelligence.

Claire : 8:03

So how do they break down the nine personality types, are they named or are they like numbers, or how does it work?

Lori: 8:08

They do have numbers mostly it's goes by, I'm Type 2 for example, but they have kind of nicknames as well. Because it is hundreds of years old, there's like different schools of thought and so different people have created different nicknames for the types. Some of the types that might have fallen under the nickname; The Helper, The Giver, The Encourager, yeah. Just kind of resonates with like wanting to be there for people.

Claire : 8:31

Yeah, well, the other 8 then, do you know them off by heart?

Lori: 8:35

So I'll kind of go off the top of my head of like the main nicknames that I know for them. So the 1 is The Perfectionist. I already mentioned the 2. The 3 is The Achiever. The 4 is The Individualist. Type 5 is The Investigator. Type 6 is The Loyalist. Type 7 is The Enthusiast and type 8 is The Challenger.

Claire : 8:55

Right. 8 or 9?

Lori: 8:57

9, sorry, forgot you 9's! You're so quiet, 9's. Nine is The Peacemaker.

Claire : 9:04

The quiet ones.

Lori: 9:05

Yes.

Claire : 9:06

I feel like that's the one we're supposed to be. The Peacemaker. Sounds like it's got it all sorted.

Lori: 9:10

We should all be the peacemaker.

Claire : 9:13

So is there like, is that one that's a lot more common than the others? Or are we generally split between all nine?

Lori: 9:18

You know, there have been some studies, but the studies haven't been like far enough reaching like a lot of them have been in North America, for example. So it really kind of skews the sampling. So most people don't really say oh, yeah, like most of us are this number. Yeah, so for the most part, they're kind of evenly spread, but I think I've seen a lot more nines and ones for example.

Claire : 9:40

Yeah, it'd be really interesting to see if it varies according to like culture.

Lori: 9:44

Yeah, exactly. I think it probably will, because a lot of it does have to do with how you are raised and yeah...

Claire : 9:50

So what are the, what would you say the benefits are about doing something like this, and then knowing a bit more about your personality type?

Lori: 9:56

Well, I think a lot of it is, what I found, is because The Enneagram is so focused on trying to achieve wholeness and like really becoming healthier versions of ourselves becoming the truest version of ourselves that what it does is it, it doesn't just give you like, here's your behaviours, here's your defaults, it kind of goes and dives into why, and it looks into, like, what is it that is caused these responses in yourself? And a lot of the reason that it was more fully fleshed out in like 1950's was tying into psychology, showing that, you know, humans in order to be well adjusted, and like healthy adults, we need certain developmental needs met as children. And of course, we're humans raising other humans, and there's going to be imperfections, and there's going to be gaps in that developmental resources that we can provide to children. And so that interferes with the ability to develop into wholeness. And so I love the analogy that the Enneagram talks about that it's kind of like having a broken limb, and you would put a cast around it. And that's what the personality develops to do is to create this protective cast around these childhood, for lack of a better word injuries, and in order to help it heal and give it that like protective support to to heal and grow healthier. But for example, if you kept a cast on long after the limb was broken or healed, then it's now no longer being helpful - it's limiting the growth potential of that limb. And so like psychology is recognised for a while that personality is not your identity, personality is this protective thing that we've developed as response, it's conditioning, it's giving a collection of conditioning reactions, fears, beliefs that we've grown up with, that were first designed as a child to, like, protect us. And so if we completely identify with our personality, it's actually hindering us and reducing us to a shell of ourselves. And The Enneagram wants to instead use that personality, what we've learned from those patterns, to direct us to transformational work that can actually heal and discover our true nature. And so the Enneagram really focuses on the hard things that happen in life, and that, you know, we have certain reactions to them. And for each type, it not only has like these nine types this way, but they are also the first personality typing, that's actually also did a levelling up this way as well, trying to make it more two dimensional. And so for each type, they have health levels, and so they have one to nine, one being the unhealthiest behaviours and nine being the healthiest. And so it like, shows you what is healthy and unhealthy for your type for behaviour, and how you can see your reactions where they're falling in. And so it's like, once you have that awareness of how you're responding to things, and that it's like what scale it's on, you have this insight into, like, 'Oh, this isn't, you know, necessarily the best thing for me, this, you know, isn't necessarily supporting the true nature that I want to have'. So some of the triads that it focuses on are, how to deal with loss and disappointment, what category do you fall under, in in those responses to dealing with that stress of losing things or not having your needs met, or different kinds of losses and stresses. So I really appreciated that part of it is like having right at that moment, a very difficult period of life being like focused on loss of motherhood, it really spoke to me on like, 'I can recognise behaviours that I'm I'm using to cope but that aren't necessarily serving me well'.

Claire : 13:37

Oh, that's really interesting, because I think I would look at some of these personality type things and think... because I love them. If I can learn something about me that way, I love it, I just lap it up, I'm probably almost too gullible with it. I just think it's brilliant. I'm on the opposite end of the scale from those people who are like, do not box me I'm not interested, there's no way to do anything about me. I know everything. I'm like, right on the other end. So but you're sort of saying it doesn't just tell you what your personality is, it's almost good that you don't identify with what it comes up with. But I'm guessing that means you can change your personality?

Lori: 14:05

Like that's kind of why they have the health ranges, is because once you're at the like healthier ranges that is closer to your true self. And of course, it's giving you traits of your behaviour and your nature. But it still isn't like that is your identity, you have to do that all the time. Like this isn't who you have to be, but like it gives you a framework of where you would want to be and in generalities and patterns that you would want to default towards. You'd want to default towards the healthier versions of those, but that doesn't necessarily mean I always have to be that person. And that also doesn't mean that I always have to be unhealthy. So for example, me being a 2 and being that giver that generosity. I don't have to feel like I have to be generous with every single person, I meet every single person who asked for something, I have to give it to them. That isn't the epitome of being a 2 and that isn't like the true essence. But it's like having that as my default that I feel like I can be generous, but I want to be generous that is who I am in general, that is finding my true essence not that I actually have to stick to being generous with every single person.

Claire : 15:12

Yeah, that's really interesting because I did the little test that you sent me that you can just do for free to get an idea. And like I said to you, I came up with a 2 as well. So I was reading through the little synopsis it gave me and I just thought, a) it felt very accurate, but b) there's, there's things that I recognise that I probably would have been like more so 10-15 years ago. And I do feel is still me, but I'm not like it at the moment. And I think I'm identifying more and more that I'm not really out of that grief journey, yet, I haven't fully come to terms and got over a lot of stuff that I thought maybe I had, I guess I've backed off some of those what might be the more healthy things. So rather than offering myself out a bit more like, 'Oh, I'll do that, I'll do this'. I feel like I've closed up a lot more, and I'm just like, I'm not a bit in more in self protective kind of mode. But just seeing that written down as this would be kind of your personality type. It made me realise that. So even from reading it, I'm thinking, oh, gosh, yeah, I'm not quite where I used to be, or I guess that would be lower on the healthy range? But just knowing like you said, as well that you don't have to give everybody everything, if that's your default to go to. I think, yeah, it's fascinating. If people want to do this fully, what does that actually look like? Is that a session with somebody? Is that just a very long kind of online questionnaire? How does it work?

Lori: 16:27

Yeah, there's a variety of routes, we typically recommend starting off with reading some books, some of the books that will give at least a basic kind of summary, what each type is like, and reading all of the numbers and picking out which you identify with the most. And of course, it actually takes a little bit of self awareness, just even be able to identify that far, because a lot of the way that they use the descriptors is again, on that scale of healthy, right? So they'll say some unhealthy behaviours, and they'll say, some healthier behaviours. And so you kind of really have to be aware enough of your tendencies to admit some of those unhealthy behaviours in order to identify with it. I know, for example, I was reading some of the things about a 2. And it was like,'ouch, this stings, like, I don't want to be that person yet, if I'm honest with myself, yeah, I do have that tendency to do that. And so some people can actually shy away from their truest number, because they can't quite admit and be fully aware of the unhealthy tendencies that they're describing. But it's just good to read all of the nine and just kind of make a top three list of the things that you resonate with the most and this doing some more research on those numbers, that can involve taking an online test to see you know, if that helps you narrow it down, because they usually will give you like a top three, that your questions identify your behaviours towards. And also or like talking to Enneagram coach who has a lot more awareness of the underlying things that they can ask questions that will draw those out, that you may not be willing to just admit to yourself, but if the right questions are asked, you might be able to discover that with them.

Claire : 18:08

So how do you use it as part of your work?

Lori: 18:10

Well, actually, so far, I've been blessed that everybody I've worked with has this gravitation towards personality profiles. So it's like, 'oh, yeah, I'm gonna take this' or they already were aware of the Enneagram. And so it's been quite easy, because I don't have to do much identifying yet, as in my work. And so it's more like, just continually bringing them back to like, 'Okay, we've talked about you have this pattern, because you are this number', and like bringing them back to the awareness of like, okay, yes, I can look to these descriptors of what I act like in certain health levels, and remind myself of like, okay, why am I doing it? Why, why it doesn't serve me anymore? And what am I aiming towards? And so, so far, I've been blessed with people who've been very gung ho about it, and already aware of that, or were willing to just quickly do 'Oh, yeah, I'm gonna just dive in. I know my number'. But yeah, it's been very helpful for me to like, be able to have some insights into what questions to ask them to help draw out awareness, because I'm aware of some of their blind spots, knowing their number better than they do, or allowing them the opportunity to, like, do more research. I'm like,'Well, do you want to look into like what it means for a four to be experiencing rejection', or'what it means for a six to all of a sudden lose trust, and when trust is their biggest thing?' And so it's just like, yeah, having that awareness, I can ask more intuitive questions.

Claire : 19:34

And how would you deal with sceptics? And I'm guessing that maybe there's one personality type that in particular, doesn't actually want to get involved with this. I'm wondering if they come lower down, if you start doing like samples of people, they don't want to do it so you can't actually get any information from that one type. But what do you do with people who are who are a bit more like 'I don't think I can be boxed. I don't really believe in this kind of stuff.'

Lori: 19:56

Yeah. So yeah, the first thing I tell them is that you know, Intagram doesn't prescribe that you are this identity. Now we try to avoid that saying that'this is your identity'. We're not trying to assign an identity to anybody and it's just a tool to help you uncover what your true self is. And so that personality is just a framework or resource, a tool to be able to uncover that. And another analogy that we've used is that, like, when you aren't aware of your personality, it's like it can tend to be the driver in your life, but once you're aware that it isn't the driver that it isn't in control, that it isn't creating your identity, you realise that it's just the vehicle to get you to that goal of understanding yourself. And so that just understanding of it as instead of an assignment, a tool, it goes from being in control, to helping you get to where you want to go,

Claire : 20:55

I guess it identifies coping strategies and things like that in people. So it must really help when you're drawing alongside someone who's grieving if you know what their personality type is. But how do you share that with people aside from like, giving printouts to everybody of like, this is my personality type, please note these things, if I start grieving! How can we use this like more, you know, amongst people we know, or people we're supporting?

Lori: 21:20

So for myself, most of the closest people around me, are enough familiar with the Enneagram that, and of course, me being aware of these tendencies now myself, I can say, you know what, if you find me saying yes too much to you, because I want to always be in in help mode, support mode, encourage mode, if you see this, like, you know, maybe ask me if I'm saying yes, too much. Like,'do you really mean that? Do you really want to say yes to this? Or are you trying not to disappoint me?' And just creating an honest dialogue, really just allowing myself to be authentic and allow people to call me out, just giving them that permission, once I can give them that awareness piece like, here's what I do. You have the permission to, you know, say'you're doing this', 'I think you're doing this', or 'are you doing this?' and asking the question. And so even with grief and loss, for example, I tend to wear rose coloured glasses, and just see, look for the positive in everything, and like, just hope to the extreme. I think I mentioned in the last interview that I call myself a hopetamist and it's just, it's more than optimism, it's just like, I'm always believing that there's hope for something better around the corner. But then it gets to the point where I just can't take that anymore. Because it gets to the point where you're almost like denying reality. And you just reach this like wall of like, 'okay, I have to face this, this isn't working', and I immediately switched to my stress behaviour. That's another thing that we talked about in the Enneagram is that in enough stress, we actually begin behaving like a different type. And those patterns are evident and linked when you read about your type, it will tell you like, here's your here's your stress number, or here's the number that you go to when you're really flourishing. And so my stress number acts completely contrary to my usual self, it becomes quite contrary, it's much more assertive, I don't back down from conflict, instead of my typical feelings of like self blame and shame, I like start pointing outwards, and I like will start being angry with things and people. And so if I am aware that that switch is quick, and I am living in the rose-coloured glasses too long, it's like that's another opportunity for me to tell the people who are close to me like'okay, if you sense that I'm just being way too rosy for too long and, and seemingly denying reality, if you bring me into awareness of that, I won't have to flip to that other very angry Lori'. Me being aware of it and calling accountability to myself by my surrounding supports. Yeah, I'm just being honest about those moments that they can help me look out for, helps me not go as far into the stress coping mechanisms that I would usually.

Claire : 23:58

That's interesting, especially as having found out I'm a two as well. I'm learning from what you're saying. I said in the beginning, didn't I? This is scary, because now you know more about me than I know about me.

Lori: 24:08

Yeah, exactly.

Claire : 24:10

Yeah, you know, I've never been afraid of conflict, I could see that, that makes so much sense to me. And yet, if you didn't know anything about this, you'd look at it and think, 'Well, you've got this person that's the giver that likes to give out all the time, and surely their weakness under too much stress is just gonna crumble. They're just gonna crumble into a heap'. But actually it's a very different reaction. So just knowing that stress reaction, especially if you've got a partner or you're married or you've got kids or you're you know you're with people a lot, just knowing those pressure points must be so helpful to those around you to be able to spot that. If you know people well enough and you're in relationship with them in a really good way that can that must really benefit the support you get when when things go badly wrong.

Lori: 24:49

Exactly.

Claire : 24:50

Or grief kicks in.Are there things that can like sort of... um don't know how to word it... I mean, like grief is really, you know, it's complicated, it's tricky, it's messy. People end up behaving like they never thought they'd behave. I guess that there are moments when all this goes out the window and people just do things, because they've been through something so traumatic or something that it actually just changes everything.

Lori: 25:10

Well, usually, yeah, like, if you're facing a big trauma later in life, it may yeah, shift some of your tendencies for while, your behaviours for a while, you'd probably start ending up looking like you're stressed number a lot of the time. And so yeah, somebody who's taking the test or reading the book during a time of very serious stress and loss, they probably will identify as a different number. What it comes down to is core motivation. At the core of you, what are you really seeking, and the desire you're trying to fulfil? And so you may not be able to answer that question in deep stress and deep loss, but eventually once you start getting healthier again, and just coming out of that, then that should come back through.

Claire : 25:54

If people were thinking about this or listening to what we're saying, what would be the reason you think that people should go out and find out more? How could it really help them, especially in the areas of loss or grief, or the you know, the stress that comes with that?

Lori: 26:06

It just gives really good insights into how to take care of yourself, as a person who tends to, like I said, give to a little bit too much sometimes, and having to, like always watch that I'm not doing it at the detriment of myself. For example, I've had to decide to take care of myself every day, to a degree a little bit, I take some time in the morning, just to pour into myself, because I know once the day gets going, once it starts encountering people, I'm just going to give I'm going to pour out, I'm going to help, I'm going to support, I'm going to encourage, and in that time for like, self reflection isn't going to be as quick during those times. And so if I start the day, as like,'Okay, where am I at? What do I need?' You know, 'am I sensing that I am in any of these unhealthy areas that I need to start being on guard for already starting my day that way?' Or, you know, 'am I good? Am I feeling healthy? Can I give a little extra today?' Like just knowing where I'm at, that check-in with myself every morning, so that it doesn't become an afterthought that I never actually think about later on in the day. And so I think these moments of awareness that we have, as we go through our type and understanding how it affects ourselves mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, we can start incorporating things into our life that help us make better choices. Because a lot of like I said, the personality cast that we put on is not meant to be permanent, and it actually limits us. And so understanding why it developed in the first place, what was it trying to protect me from and how it no longer serves me because I'm an adult who can make my own choices, I can react the way I need to versus the way I have to, we can with that awareness, develop these healthier coping protective things that you know, now I know that the healthy thing for myself to do is set boundaries. And I know like I make blocks up in my schedule that like okay, these are for me, these are, these are for me and my husband, and all the rest of the time I can give to other people, but like this is a boundary that I've had to separate myself knowing who I am and what I do. So just that awareness of yourself and what you need to be able to live within the healthiest levels, you can set that up for yourself so that you aren't having to resort to the unhealthy coping mechanisms.

Claire : 28:14

And what's the hardest thing you think that you've had to learn about yourself through this?

Lori: 28:19

Probably the motives behind giving, you know, I just thought 'oh, I'm just a loving, generous, caring person.[laughs] That's just me.' But figuring out that the roots of where that came from and that that like my core fear is rejection, and that I'm doing it to earn acceptance and to avoid rejection. And that just checking in with my motives now it's just like, 'okay, am I doing this because I really want to do this for this person, or because I want them to like me, and because I feel like I'll get something back from that?' And that it borders on manipulative. That's the word that really made me cringe when I was reading the description of my personality; Like 'they can be manipulative'. And I'm like, 'No, how dare you say that? I am just loving and pure love'. [laughs]

Claire : 29:04

[laughs] Oh, no, that's me too!

Lori: 29:07

Exactly. But yeah, that was just like, 'okay, yeah, I sense that', like, I went through many years of codependency and having a really significant codependent relationship where I would become whoever I thought that person needed me to be, and I would actually be different person with different people, and I was like a chameleon because I would just shift to whatever that person needed me to be or who I thought they needed me to be. And so I had lost myself I didn't know who I was, and what I needed to be, for myself, what did I want? And so it was really hard to like swallow that there was a manipulation in that, because I'd learned that I've earned the love I get which isn't true. I didn't have to earn it, but that's what I grown up understanding is that it was a transaction airy type thing. And so anytime it's transaction, it becomes manipulative. So that was the hardest thing to learn about myself and really monitor that.

Claire : 30:03

I think it could be very easy to think that you do these personality tests, you get given something, and you know, it's all easy. And some people are like, 'I'm not doing that, because it doesn't need to be just boxed or whatever'. But actually, people who do it, I think generally want to do it to learn about themselves, and you don't ever do these without learning something bad about yourself, they always give you both sides. And it's hard, it is hard to swallow, and you know, you have to really look at stuff you want to work on. And if you don't want to work on it, you have to ignore it, and that's hard work as well, because you've already found it out. So you don't want to just put it to one side, so it's a lot of a lot of effort, it's a lot of work. I think it's always worth it.

Lori: 30:39

Yeah, the question I kept, like saying to myself before, this was 'Why am I constantly repeating these mistakes? Why can't I have the knowledge? Why am I continually defaulting as if I was like, almost in this hypnotic state of like, I face a trigger that whatever triggers me, and I just encounter it, and I don't think it through I just react?' And I'm like in this rut of reaction, and I just could never seem to like fully escape it, my progress seems so small. Until a deeper awareness of it. And then it's like, 'okay, well, now I'm aware, and I can either choose to ignore it and live in this rut, but I've been asking for the last how many years why am I in this rut? I need to do the hard work to get myself out of it.'

Claire : 31:22

I could see how in some, especially with grief and stuff, if you're in a marriage, it's can be very difficult to help partners that are grieving very differently. But if you happen to know about them and their personality, even if they're not opening up much themselves, it can give you a real insight into where they are, and what's happening and just maybe even help you and give you some peace that 'oh, they're acting that way, but I know they're acting that way. Because it's part of their stress response', or, or whatever it is, that can be really useful. I've had that conversation with Chris, you know, when we fall out sometimes I can really start fighting for something, it might be something quite small, but I want I really want it done this way. And I've worked out that's because I feel like it hasn't been heard or considered. If it's heard or considered, I'm very happy to let it go, I'm not really fighting for to have it done necessarily. But if I feel like it's not even being considered, I can really start fighting for it. And I've had to really pull back on that. But also say to him, 'if you see me getting really hung up about something, it's probably just that I don't feel heard yet, and I will kind of you know, I'll come back afterwards'. But even little patterns like that when you work them out on your own, they're massively helpful going forwards in life.

Lori: 32:26

Yes, I feel like the Enneagram, like not only for self improvement, but it's it is the best relationship tool I have ever had, like, the relationships that I have, where we're both aware of our Enneagram number and like how we can not only just understand each other, but we can now like communicate, we can vocalise what we need much better because we have the same framework and language to have that conversation of 'Okay, now, I now I'm aware of what I need, and I can vocalise it, and they're aware of what they need, and they can vocalise it'. So it's been a really great communication tool. But also, yeah, just once you do understand them and their defaults, it's like, okay, they're reacting this way, because of that, not because of me, and we take things a whole lot more personally than we should, because a lot of it is it's their personality cast, trying to protect them. And they have these protective things that they are not necessarily aware of, and the triggers that caused them to come out. So yeah, it's a huge tool for understanding and relationships. And, and it's especially interesting because my, my number that I go to in stress is an eight. And that is what my husband is. So it's very easy for him now to see that I've hit that level of stress. And he was like, 'okay, she's acting like me, she's stressed'. And so, but I also now have insight into how he feels all the time, those moments where I'm like, 'Oh, why? Why am I lacking control? Why am I like, so aggressive now? Why am I like...', I've had these glimpses of how he is all the time. And so it's really given a lot of insight into who he is. And it's helped us really understanding each other and being on the same page a lot more since we've known our numbers.

Claire : 34:01

Yeah, that's a great idea. And even if it's hard, you know, to do in relationships, it can be sometimes just doing it in friend circles, I think that might even be fun. Yeah, cos you're one step removed, so you can have a bit more fun with it and be like, 'oh, yeah, that's totally you!' You wouldn't take it as harsh as if your husband said, 'that's totally you like!' and you're like 'No, it's not!'

Lori: 34:17

Right! I know, it's hard because my husband loves personality profiles as much as I do. So he has a very deep understanding of all of them as well, and so yeah, he can pinpoint it, and I'm like, 'dang it, you know too much!' It's great, but it's like sometimes it's a little scary when they know you just as good or better than you know yourself. [laughs]

Claire : 34:36

And there must be points when there's argument when someone's just like, 'oh, that's your stress number'. And you're just like, 'I'll show you my stress number!!' [laughs]

Lori: 34:41

[laughs] See, there's your 8 coming out!

Claire : 34:47

There you go! So where can people, if people are like, yes, I want to know more about this, where's a good starting point, wherever you are in the world to find out more about this?

Lori: 34:57

Yes. So probably the most expansive place would be the Enneagram Institute. And they have books that they release that are really helpful. They go into the health levels of each number, they talk about the triads of the different behaviour areas, and so it's really a good full picture. They also do have a test on their, their website, but it it does have a fee. But we can also include the link to the free test that I sent to you, which is very comprehensive as well, and it's very insightfu, and it's a good starting place if people wanted to do that. But yeah, the Enneagram Institute has a lot of great material, either on their website, or in books or different classes that they even have sometimes.

Claire : 35:36

So if people want to meet with somebody, or talk it over in person with someone who's certified, how would they do that?

Lori: 35:40

So the Enneagram Institute probably would list a few people that they can contact, but you can also even just do a search of Enneagram certified coaches in your area, it's best to look up somebody local, because meeting in person would be ideal, because you do talk about a lot of vulnerable things, you have to be very authentic with them. And so that's just the kind of thing that you can't really replicate over texts or emails, even zoom call might be a little bit difficult unless you've already built up that rapport with them. So it's best to yeah, if you want to talk to somebody about it more look up a coach in your area.

Claire : 36:13

Okay, so my final question we've been chatting about Enneagrams as a useful tool to help people learn more about themselves and therefore help them navigate stress and loss and grief. So if I went into my shed to pick out a tool that represented the anagram, what tool would it be?

Lori: 36:27

When I think about this, I think of pruning shears because it really does help. When I learned about gardening. I mean, I flunked gardening 101 bad time. I learned about pruning, and just that pruning doesn't necessarily mean taking away things that are bad or appear bad, but it's like pruning for the sake of growth. And so it's going through your different behaviours, your patterns, your defaults, and like what is serving me and what is not serving me. And the Enneagram is a tool that that really helps identify that and then use it to cut those things out that aren't serving you anymore. So yeah, I would say pruning shears.

Claire : 37:03

Pruning shears. Another useful tool, I don't have. And one that I particularly enjoy using in the garden, and often get carried away with. Thank you Lori for this fascinating insight into the Enneagram personality tool. Even if this is the only information you ever hear on the Enneagram I feel it's already enough to help us realise we have all got default behaviours and stress responses that we can identify in ourselves and be aware of, the more we can learn about ourselves, those around us those we work with, or caring for, the better we can navigate times in our life that provoke certain behaviours that we might want to minimise. But we can also find the things we're gifted in and good at to help us enjoy life, work and relationships on a deeper level. If you want to find out more about Lori, you can check out her link tree link for her website and social media profiles, which is

https: 37:51

//linktr.ee/AtALossInfertility or see the link in the show notes. And if you're desperate to find out more about the Enneagram and what type you are, I'll put the link to the free test and the Enneagram Institute and a good starter book that you can read in the show notes. In other exciting news I have a big shout out and a huge thank you to share for another regular high level supporter of my work through www.buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy. So thank you to the wonderful Peter Ellis! I have a few different membership options to support my work and the podcast from just a one off fancy tea donation or becoming a member and donating regularly from £2 pounds up to £20 a month with different perks for different levels. And Peter just earned himself this shout out his name on the website and the option to pick a topic for me to write a My Why blog on, so keep an eye out for that. Thanks for listening to the side of my podcast. If you've got a subject you'd like me to chat to an expert on, please get in touch via social media or the website or via email thesilentwhy@gmail.com and let's chat!