The Silent Why: finding hope in grief and loss

Let's Chat... Returning to work after pregnancy loss & infertility (with Jackie Mancinelli)

September 27, 2022 Claire Sanys, Jackie Mancinelli Episode 51
The Silent Why: finding hope in grief and loss
Let's Chat... Returning to work after pregnancy loss & infertility (with Jackie Mancinelli)
Show Notes Transcript

#051. Let’s Chat… about the challenges of returning to work for teachers after pregnancy loss and infertility. Educators don’t just have adult colleagues to navigate when going back to work after loss but also classrooms full of students. 

These Let’s Chat… episodes pop-up every now and then instead of one of our 101 different types of loss, as I (Claire Sandys, co-host of The Silent Why podcast) chat to a guest who has experience or expertise in a particular area that can help us deal with, or prepare for, loss.

In this Let’s Chat… I chat to Jackie Mancinelli in New Jersey, a high school English and ESL teacher, and founder of Start Healing Together - an organisation dedicated to supporting educators and teachers experiencing pregnancy loss and infertility.

Jackie is passionate about advocating for rights in the workplace, to educate others on how to discuss pregnancy loss and infertility grief, provide helpful resources, and support educators when they return to work.

She shares her own experiences of returning to teaching high school students after the loss of her son, Richard, as well as the different challenges when returning to teach younger age groups.

In this chat you’ll hear about all the areas Jackie works in to help parents, including updating contracts for bereavement leave, developing individualised plans for returning to work and support services for students, as well as what employees and colleagues can do to help those around them in the workplace.

You’ll also hear her written answer to the one question I wanted to know the answer to but forgot to ask during our chat.

For more about Jackie and Start Healing Together visit: https://www.starthealingtogether.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/starthealingtogether/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/starthealingtogethersupport/

And with each Let’s Chat… guest I'm building a whole tool shed (metaphorically), of tools to help you face and get through loss. So let’s see what Jackie adds to my growing list of tools. 

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Thank you for listening.

Claire:

Hello there, and thanks for joining me for another episode of Let's Chat... I'm Claire Sandys and The Silent Why podcast is my passion project to help other people who are going through loss or grief. You can find out more about that on the website, www.thesilentwhy.com, or by finding us on any podcast player. We release new episodes every Tuesday either on one of the 101 losses we're on a mission to find, or a Let's Chat... episode like this one; chatting to someone who has experience or expertise in a particular area of loss. And through each of these episodes, I'm slowly building a tool shed(metaphorically) of equipment to help us face, and get through, loss and grief. So at the end of each episode, I ask our guest what sort of tool their subject is and I added to my shed, watch this space for how I can show you them all at some point, I am working on it. In this episode of Let's Chat..., I'm chatting to Jackie Mancinelli, a high school teacher, and ESL teacher in New Jersey. She is the mother of two young girls and a son Richard who died after an emergency delivery in 2016. She's also the founder of Start Healing Together, an organisation dedicated to supporting educators and teachers experiencing pregnancy loss and infertility. And she's a New Jersey ambassador for Count the Kicks. Jackie is passionate about advocating for rights in the workplace, to educate others on how to discuss grief, provide helpful resources and support the educator when they returned to work, specialising in this area adds extra challenges when returning to work, because it's not just colleagues but classes of children at all different ages that teachers face when going back into work after loss. In this chat, you'll hear about all the areas Jackie works in to help parents, including updating contracts with bereavement leave, developing individualised plans for returning to work and support services for students, as well as what employees and colleagues can do to help those around them in the workplace. She also shares her own experiences of returning to work to teach high school students, as well as the different challenges there are when returning to teach younger age groups. So grab a hot drink because it's getting a little chilly here in the northern hemisphere, or maybe a cold one if you're in the south, and relax with me and Jackie, as we chat returning to work after pregnancy loss and infertility.

Jackie:

So, my name is Jackie Mancinelli, and I am located in New Jersey. So East Coast of the United States, and I am a high school English and ESL teacher(ESL stands for English as a Second Language). And I'm the founder of Start Healing Together. This is an organisation that supports educators experiencing pregnancy loss and infertility. And I am also the mother to three children, our son Richard, whom we lost after an emergency delivery in 2016. And then two living daughters, which we call our rainbow daughters. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got passionate about this subject and returning to work after loss. You've mentioned that you've you've been through it yourself so you've experienced it. Is that where this came from? Or did it come from a different area? So it ultimately stemmed from that but it took several years for me to recognise this as a need for both myself and my fellow educators across the country really and the world, because I think that I was, it was very difficult for me to come to terms with my miscarriage that I had in 2014. And then, you know, my infant loss of my son, and then going through to high risk pregnancies afterward. It was really, it took me a long time just to get used to my new normal. And then I actually heard the story of a fellow teacher out of Washington DC, who had a stillbirth, and she was denied maternity leave. And I connected with her and I express my condolences and we just kind of shared stories. And I recognise that this wasn't just a one anecdotal story. This was something that was recurring over and over again, I had experienced it and you know, it's just happening all across the country. And educators, it's a very unique field, where pregnancy loss and infertility it's especially triggering, because our job is to take care of other people's children when we desperately want our own. And that can be, it's really difficult.

Claire:

What do you do? How do you go about starting something like this?

Jackie:

What we really focus on is supporting and advocating for rights in the workplace. So one thing that we work on is updating the language in contracts regarding bereavement leave, because many contracts, if they have bereavement leave at all, it will say the loss of a child, but we have found that certain administrators in school all districts will play with that language, and they will say that a pregnancy loss regardless of the stage does not count as a quote unquote 'child'. So we work to update that language to specifically include different types of pregnancy losses from, you know, a chemical pregnancy, to an infant loss, including TFMR, molar pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy, and then also failed fertility treatments to ensure that all of those losses are recognised in the black and white language of the contract, and then those employees can access that. But we also work on developing individualised plans for when an educator returns to work. Because it's, it's incredibly difficult to return to work after really any kind of loss.

Claire:

Because it's really difficult, isn't it? Because I guess initially, where is that line? I mean, how do you do it, how have you managed to get that into a contract that includes all kinds of loss in that area?

Jackie:

It gets very complicated, unfortunately. And I'm definitely learning as I go, in my state in New Jersey, we, and this is only my state, which there is something on a federal level that the Senate is taking in to vote on, if that changes, it does change for the whole country. But in New Jersey, there are death statistics that are gathered when you have a loss at 20 weeks or later, which is considered a stillbirth. So that legal language helps us in the state of New Jersey, because we can say there was a loss at 20 weeks or later, that counts as a technical, like 'child', they can obtain a stillbirth certificate, which is not offered in every single state. So there's that, which is unfortunate, because then it's breaking these losses, that are so incredibly personal, down to this clinical level. But we have other districts that have been incredibly open to accepting any kind of loss, and they're very family oriented and welcoming, and they take the language and they update it no problem. But we have had some lawyers or solicitors push back on the language and say that it's too broad.

Claire:

Such a difficult balance to get because you'd like to shame to make it that clinical but then to help people you kind of have to make it that clinical, so it must be a really difficult area to to get right. What are some of the the main challenges that people were facing that you felt we really need to help them?

Jackie:

So one thing is that some people are returning to work after loss, and they haven't told anyone. So it may be early loss, or, you know, no one at their workplace knew they were going through fertility treatments. And that is very difficult on its own because it's something that no one is really aware of, no one can see, and you're really struggling on your own. I know for me personally, when I had my miscarriage, I didn't tell anyone. I had just been hired at my school and I was nervous about being pregnant for the I guess it's also something that's quite private, when you first time, and then when I had my loss, I was very ashamed., so I didn't want to tell anyone because I felt like something was wrong with me. And it hadn't happened to anyone else. And it wasn't until I talked to people, I realised that I didn't do anything wrong. And it was incredibly common, even in my own school. So that is difficult on its own when you're keeping that a secret keeping it bottled up, when it's a loss that everyone is aware of like later pregnancy loss, or even if you lose, you know, a parent or a spouse, those are losses that everyone recognises. But the difference with a parent or a spouse, I feel like there are rules kind of in our society, where everyone knows to offer their condolences give you flowers and cards, give you space to grieve. But with a pregnancy loss, there aren't any rules, because we don't speak about it, there's you know, it's heavily stigmatised. And you know, having those employees return to work, it's really difficult because it's just so misunderstood. And I think that we often expect parents to go back to work and work at their same level, and be able to do their work just as before, and be able to focus and that's just not the reality. start trying for children, let's say it's your first child, you don't necessarily want people to know at that point you're trying for children. And as a female in the workplace it kind of sends out this beacon if you do tell people it must be just a really hard balance to work out how much information do I give? But then like you said, to get the support you need to give some information to somebody. What do you advise people when they're in that situation? Yes, and this is especially difficult when I'm going through fertility treatments, because on one hand, you think this is my job, I may have one close friend, but I don't want to broadcast to the entire office what I'm doing at my doctor's appointments. And one thing that I do hear a lot from families that are going through treatments, they will say, it's really difficult for everyone to know, like each month's timeline, and then when there's a transfer, they want to have updates. And then when it's a failed transfer, it's really difficult to break those bad news and if there are several, it's just bad news over and over again. So what I have found is that it is good to choose people that you trust and that can advocate for you. So that may be a supervisor or your boss, or better yet, the HR department, you talk with them, and you say, this is exactly what I'm going through, this is what I need. These are, you know, I know my rights in the workplace. And that's where it's really helpful to have language in the contract. So then you can say, I know this is in the contract, and this is what is available to me. And that's where it's important to speak up, because if they're not upholding your contract, if they are violating any of your rights, you're aware, and you can, you know, ask for help.

Claire:

And what are the challenges that are specifically difficult for teachers and educators when they when they're going back to work? Because obviously, you're not just dealing with an office full of adults, you've got a class who who might have watched you get pregnant and be expecting a child at the end of it themselves at different ages. How do you navigate that?

Jackie:

So that is especially difficult, because one thing that we are working on right now is developing a toolkit for school districts, where they can break the news of a pregnancy loss to staff, but also to students, and provide support services for students. And also to give little like one-line scripts to the students so that they know what to say to that teacher, when she returns to the classroom. Because we know that children will often say whatever they're thinking, and that may be hurtful, albeit unintentionally. But that's where, you know, we want to teach these children to say,'welcome back', or 'we really missed you'. And, you know, just kind of move along. And it gives them a level of comfort, but also gives the teacher a level of comfort, because returning to a classroom after a loss, especially later loss where these children were kind of celebrating this pregnancy alongside you, it's really hard. And it's very uncomfortable. And there's a lot of pressure. So we try to make sure that the students are prepared, staff members are prepared, and that there is a small support team ready to step in whenever that teacher needs it. And that really, what that looks like we tried to work with the teacher and their support person or support people to figure out what exactly they need when returning to that classroom.

Claire Sandys:

How would you find employees and schools and places to work with? How do you find those?

Jackie:

It, it really varies. We have some that are incredibly family oriented, and they're very supportive. And all of this is kind of like a no brainer. And they think, 'Well, this is all common sense, of course, we're going to accept this and make all of these changes'. Others, it becomes much more difficult, because they will see the teacher simply as an employee, there's a contract that that teacher signs, they're expected to uphold it. And you know, they have a minimum amount of sick leave days available, and beyond that, you know, they are kind of on their own to figure it out. So those are the districts where we have to access the legal language, and we have to ensure that we have a little more evidence and power to bring to the table when we have those discussions.

Claire:

So would you be sort of, if a mum suffers a child loss or miscarriage or loses a pregnancy, could they get in touch with you to then go and talk to their employer on their behalf? Or are you going to the employers and saying have you got anybody, and could we help with this?

Jackie:

We really function two different ways currently. While we will absolutely talk to employers directly, what we found to be really helpful is talking with individual educators, figuring out what the issue is, what exactly what kind of support they need, or their support person will reach out on their behalf. Especially if it's someone who is very new in their grief. It's really difficult to have these conversations. So we'll talk to the support person, or we work with teacher unions, and we will say okay, these are everything that we offer. Your state needs this I've heard from several different teachers in New York City, for example, we know that this is something that your employees need, how can we make this work?

Claire:

Have you seen a school adopt this, or not just schools there's probably loads of different educators I don't know what in America you call them, but have you seen certain educators sort of adopt this and it go well, helping a particular person back to work, but then heard any stories about them using it for for other situations in the school where other people have gone off with different bereavements? Are the skills transferable like that?

Jackie:

Yes, absolutely. So we have expanded to create several different chapters. So small Start Healing Together groups, where there's someone who is like the advocate, they're in charge. And then that is established in their school, where they are the 'go to', for their district for their local association. We also work with, primarily in New Jersey, the teachers union called the New Jersey Education Association, we work with representatives throughout the state, so that they can teach it to their members. And then I actually had someone just this past week reach out and say that he wanted to offer this information in his school, because he actually had an adult child pass away, and he recognised that this would be really relevant for any kind of loss, not just the pregnancy loss. And that I think that's really true, because I have talked with a lot of people who have had losses of adult children, and they say, you know, this was really relevant because I don't feel supported in the workplace either.

Claire:

I mean, I guess a common thing when you return to work anywhere, is people just sort of saying, 'Oh, how are you doing?' Which is, you know, incredibly difficult question to answer, are there kind of things that you recommend that are better ways for either employers to ask that question or for colleagues to ask that question?

Jackie:

Well, I think the one thing is that when you ask, 'how were you doing?' that person asking needs to be prepared for an honest answer. Because there were times when I had the strength to give kind of like a fake answer, 'I'm fine'. But then there were times where I had hit my limit for that day and I gave the honest truth. And the person felt clearly uncomfortable. But that was just exactly how I was feeling. So it is important to be prepared for an honest answer, but also recognise that you don't want to be silent. You don't want to ignore that person, but to sit with them in their, in that space of grief. And to, maybe instead of 'how are you feeling?' or 'is there anything I can do for you?' it's 'you know what, can you tell me a story about your child?' or'what was your pregnancy, like with your child?' or 'what is your child's name?' and be ready to just sit with them and listen to them and validate their experiences. Because as a parent, whether you know, we have a living child or a child that's no longer here, we still like to talk about them, and see ourselves as parents. So that's important, and that it's okay for you to be uncomfortable in that discussion. And just be okay with that.

Claire Sandys:

Yeah, we interviewed somebody recently who spoke about the best thing you can do really, is just be uncomfortably present with me.

Jackie:

Yes.

Claire:

It's not comfortable, but just be present. I was just like, what a lovely phrase. That's exactly what it is. It's being uncomfortably present with somebody. It's a hard thing to do. It's difficult, but it's worth doing because it means so much to the person that you're doing it for. What are some of the examples of things that you've seen that where people get it really wrong? Have you got examples of things where you just like, oh, you know, forehead slap, I can't believe that happened!

Jackie:

Too many! [laughs]

Claire:

Oh no.

Jackie:

For me, personally, I had a lot of silence when I

Claire:

Have you got, just to even it out, have you got good stories of things people have done really well when someone's returned to work. And then I actually had one coworker see me returned to work?

Jackie:

Yes, I do, I did know of an employer who went to the and do an about face, like turn around, and duck into another classroom. So like, seemingly, like, run away from me. And that was really painful, and it's stuck with me all these years. But there are other times where, you know, just the general like,'Oh, you're not over it yet' or any of those platitudes that never seem to help, like 'you can get pregnant again', like any of those phrases, I hear that far too often. There's just this expectation that if you are grieving for too long, then something's wrong. But there's no timeline on grief. And I think that that's something that's very difficult for employers and co-workers to truly understand. internet and just looked up;'how to support an employee returning to work after a pregnancy loss'. And I was like,'wow, that is so simple, and I never hear that'. Because, you know, it's often like, 'oh, I don't know what to do', or 'I don't know what to say'. But you can do a search and find things on the internet. But then I have other times where, so in our schools we have guidance counsellors, and some of them are training to deal with different people in crisis. So the administrator will go to that guidance counsellor and say, 'you know, I have this employee coming to work, she had a stillbirth at 37 weeks, what can we do to kind of prepare everyone for her to return and make sure she's comfortable?' So talking to people, getting things in place without being told, but the reason that Start Healing Together exists is because that isn't as common sense, and it doesn't happen as often as we would like.

Claire:

Definitely not, we're discovering that as well through the podcast. So people come back to work, but then what happens if they struggle at that point, almost like they came back too early, or there's things that are just triggering other stuff, and they just they're starting to not cope very well, is there something in place to help people at that point if they need to step back again?

Jackie:

So I think that sometimes this is a little bit easier to deal with in other workplaces outside of education, because I have talked with some parents who worked outside of education, and they could go back out on leave, they could do maybe like a half day schedule, where they, you know, work in the morning, or work in the afternoon, or maybe come in late and work a little bit later. So they can kind of amend their schedule to their needs. And that is really helpful. The other thing is, depending on the workplace, how many days you get for bereavement leave some workplaces will not require you to take that consecutively. So you can break it up. And you can use a day here or there. But in education, if you have a classroom full of first graders, and you are getting ready to cry, it's really difficult because you can't just leave. So that's where you want to have a group of support people kind of on standby. So I know in my school, each teacher has a different schedule. So we work to see, okay, I know this person is off this class period, I can call them and say 'please come to my classroom for five minutes, I need a break'. If the administrator is supportive, and understanding, then you can say,'you know, I really need to take a half day, I need to leave early, or call out'. But right now, there is a teacher and substitute teacher shortage in the US. So there is like an extra layer of guilt that a lot of educators have about asking for any kind of those accommodations.

Claire:

So for people who haven't got the support, they're just doing it on their own and they're returning to work, what would you recommend they do with the balance between letting people know what you've been through before you get back or after you get back to work, and then maybe protecting yourself a bit by not telling them? Because I'm guessing for some people, you could let your employer know, and they would let staff know before you came back if you wanted them to.

Jackie:

So it absolutely depends on the comfort level of the parent, and what they feel comfortable sharing. So we do recommend sending an email before returning. And this can be done, you know, from the support person, from the administrator, or from you know, the parent themselves. The one that I thought was an excellent example is a mother wrote it with her husband, so they wrote together because she said it was really difficult to do on her own. And she decided what she wanted to share from her story and then she gave a bullet list of 'this is what I want, this is how you can support me', and'here are things that are off limits'. And one of the off limits things was 'do not ask me what happened. I don't want to talk about it, but you know, if you would like to send a card to my address, here it is'. So that was really clear. And I was able and like she gave me permission to use that kind of as a template. So I kind of edited it out and I was able to give that to another grieving mother and say, you know, this is something that you can look at to get ideas, to let your colleagues know, because it's really difficult to just go back to your, you know, to your workspace.

Claire:

I like that that's a great idea. It's so difficult, isn't it? Because sometimes it's nice to share things with the right people. But then if you don't know what their reaction is, as well, what you don't want to do is mopping up their tears because you did share it and it got them upset. It's just a minefield.

Jackie:

Yeah. And I think that you know, for those listening that are going to be that support person or someone who is going to talk to someone who's grieving. You have to recognise that it's not about you, and that you do not need to be comforted, you can have your breakdown later. But it's important to be present for that grieving parent right then. That's something really tricky, because I know that when I would tell people my story would make them really sad, and clearly uncomfortable. And then I felt uncomfortable, like I had to make them feel better. And that's hard, because I didn't have the mental capacity and the emotional bandwidth to be able to do that. The one thing that I think helps people kind of ease into the support space, is when they, you're just leaving like a note or a card on a teacher's desk before they get there, sending a text message, and adding 'there's no obligation to reply', all of those things where you can let that person know that you care, but also is a little bit easier for that support person as well. And then when they're ready, they can talk.

Claire:

I'm guessing a lot of this stuff you've done is with hindsight, so you didn't get those tips and that support when you were going through it? Has it helped you personally in any other ways since? Or is it more like 'I wish I had this'.

Jackie:

So I know that I had a lot of anger initially, because every time someone said the wrong thing, or did the wrong thing, I felt personally slighted. But now I recognise in hindsight, you know, 6, 7, 8 years later to see that as - they just didn't know what to do. And now I'm on a mission to make sure that others are supported in a way that I wish I had, but I don't have any anger anymore, it's more 'let's just go ahead and change the system now', because I'm not going to be the only, you know, grieving parent. And this is going to happen, so let's just make sure that they're supported.

Claire:

What is what's the hardest bit about trying to get other people to adopt the sort of behaviours and habits?

Jackie:

To, especially if it's someone who has never gone through a loss themselves, to kind of empower them to recognise that they can be in the space, and they can provide support, even if they can't be truly empathetic, they can still have, you know, a position in this space and be a really good advocate.

Claire:

I'm guessing these things are applicable to people who aren't even going through loss themselves right now, or don't know anybody, because they can take these things on board and be watching out for it. Because every workplace is going to encounter somebody going through some kind of loss at some point.

Jackie:

Oh, absolutely. Just in my own workplace, you know, we've had grieving parents, people have lost their partners, and just saying, you know, 'I know that you had a loss, I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you'. Just that, that simple thing can really make them feel a lot better just for that moment.

Claire:

And if an employer is listening, and there's just one thing they could do to help people in the organisation with loss or returning to work, what's like the one top thing you'd advise them to look at or adopt?

Jackie:

Be open minded, and see the employee as more than just a worker, but as a person who needs to be supported. Even if you can't see any physical ailment, they need support, and their mental and emotional health really matters, because that will impact their performance.

Claire:

And going through it yourself, experience for them to hear, what is what was the hardest bit about returning to work for you?

Jackie:

It was exhausting having to pretend that I was okay all the time, because my son died in May, and then school let out in June, so I didn't return for that school year. But I returned the following year, and I had some of the same students again, because I teach 11th grade and 12th grade. And I wanted very badly to show those students that I was okay. And at the end of each day, I was just mentally and physically exhausted. And all my my co-workers, I would have to put on a smile, because I wanted to make them feel comfortable. And sometimes that facade would slip and it was hard, it was hard getting it back up.

Claire:

Is there a particular age that people teach that is the trickiest for returning to work? Or have they all just got different challenges?

Jackie:

They all have very different challenges. I know that for the younger children, you know, pre school, all throughout elementary school, that's really difficult because this may be their first experience with even hearing about death, and especially the death of a baby. That is very difficult for them to understand. So that presents its own challenges with making it simple and not very complicated for them to understand and also not to scare them. And then when you get to middle school in high school, it gets a little more complicated because they are more invested in that relationship with the teacher and they want to make sure that the teachers okay. I know for my high school students, that was all they cared about, they wanted to know that I was okay. And there was really no communication between me and the students. So it gets very complicated depending on the age.

Claire:

And as a colleague, if somebody's out there now and they know that tomorrow they've got someone coming back into the to the office, or the school, that's been through a loss or bereavement, is there one thing that you think this is a good go to, you can just say this, if you don't have to be around them for long, or you don't have to ask any questions, just say... Is there something that someone could have said to you that you'd have been like, 'I appreciate that'. Even if you can't do any more, I appreciate that.

Jackie:

The one thing is, I think that we always want to say, 'please let me know if there's anything I can do'. But we need to rephrase that. You need to try to give them something specific. This might sound a little odd, but the one thing I really appreciated was someone came to me and said, 'my office is always open for you to come and cry in'. And I thought,'that's perfect, because what if I do need someplace to go?' The other thing is, and this isn't something to say, but something to do; add that date of the loss in your calendar, and have it repeat every single year. Check in on that person, not just the weeks that they returned, but you know, six months later, and then pay attention to when that reminder comes up in your calendar and check in on them. Even if it's five years later, it's going to be still be a really difficult time.

Claire:

Yeah, I think that's a lovely tip. I've done that with with friends I know that I've lost family members and things. And it fascinates me more people don't do it, because things like even with birthdays, and anniversaries, everything like that, it's so easy to do now. But it's so effective, because it makes that person like you said feel seen. And I love that idea of the open office. I was just thinking I guess you could you could send that to you know, even if that person didn't have an office, just to message them and say if you need to cry, text me, I'll come get you out of whatever you're in. If you're in a meeting, you're in like you're in a conversation or come rescue you just a little offer that just says 'I'm here' and like you said you feel safe I guess at that point, because you think I've got an 'out', if I need to'I've got an out', you might not ever need it, but that in itself is a lovely thing. Yeah, I like that gesture. I remember that one for next time I'm in an office. So right, okay, so my final question is around my metaphorical tool shed. So we've been talking about returning to work after loss and knowing about the best tools and the best way of doing this as an employee or as an employer. So if it is a useful tool for helping people, what kind of tool do you think it would represent?

Jackie:

Okay, so I was thinking of a level where you need to use it to make sure that everything is straight, you find the right balance. And I think that if you work in a workplace that it is out of balance, where you know, maybe they focus too much on your workplace performance and not enough on your mental health- it's not going to work, it's going to fall apart. But if you can find a workplace and you have employers that are understanding, empathetic, really, truly support you holistically, you're going to achieve that balance and things will be level.

Claire:

A spirit level, a great addition to my shed and such a vital tool for helping keep that all important balance in our life and how we're dealing with bereavements in the workplace. Annoyingly, it wasn't till after our interview finished that I realised there was one question I really wanted to ask Jackie. So I sent her an email and she answered it for me like that. The question was this. What about the men? What about returning to work for them after baby loss and infertility treatments?

And Jackie sent me this answer:

"That's a great question. Spouses, partners and non-birthing parents are often overlooked when it comes to pregnancy loss and fertility treatments. I have talked with partners who have said that since the loss did not physically happen within their bodies, they did not feel like their grief was seen as valid. They matter and their emotions are valid. When returning to work, they should advocate for themselves with their supervisor and the HR department. They can request an amended schedule or bereavement days as well. They should also build a support network among their co-workers in case they need a break in the middle of the day. If they feel that they need that extra support at work, they should not be afraid to ask for it." So thanks, Jackie for that, and let's make a real effort to support people around us returning to work after this kind of loss or grief. If you want to find out more about Jackie's work you can visit www.starthealingtogether.com and her social media and I'll put links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your passion in this area, Jackie, to make a difference for those in this devastating area of loss. Even though a lot of what Jackie said is specific to the US and educators and teachers. There is so much for us to take from this chat across the board when it comes to helping people return to work in any setting or any country. Thanks for listening to The Silent Why podcast. If you've got a subject you'd like me to chat to an expert on. Please get in touch via social media or the website or drop me an email at thesilentwhy@gmail.com and Let's Chat...

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